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Quote (Artizan007 @ April 20 2006,15:05) Nick they believe in baptism but not water baptism… as far as i understand water baptism is of the old testament times, ceremonial cleansing but it has been surpassed by being baptised into Jesus… he would baptize with holy sprit and fire… the one baptism spoken about by Paul in Ephesians 4:5 It speaks of the cleansing of the inward man, rather than the cleansing of the outward man…
I found this article interesting – I would love to know your thoughts
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules….sid=413
Ciao
Hi A7,
A common false teaching.
Baptism is water baptism unless otherwise specified in scripture. All other baptisms-Spirit, fire etc are called baptisms by comparison with water baptism.
Jesus said you must be born again “of water and the Spirit”
Two baptisms.
So what of the scripture that says “there is one baptism” used here as the basis for this false teaching?Eph 4.3f
“being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is
One body and
One Spirit, just also as you were called in
One hope of your calling
One Lord
One faith,
One baptism,
One God and Fatherof all who is
over all and
through all and
in all”The emphasis here is on UNITY not on saying only one form of baptism exists but all are made ONE through baptism and sharing the same Spirit.
Baptism is not specified so it is water baptism.
Baptism is not specified so it is water baptism…
How can you be sure of that Nick?Jesus said you must be born again “of water and the Spirit”… then what about confessing Jesus as Lord, accepting his message, doing as he commands:
SO without water baptism – you cant be born again in your view? Well then there is a lot of people who will be in for a shocker… Is my understanding of this correct on this – If so it is not by grace through faith alone, and acceptance of the message and trust in Jesus that we are saved but by an action and works of obedience. You have to do this and that to be saved…
It is important that Jesus baptized no one, have you any idea why that was? His disciples did it for him – Jesus sat by and watched or spent time with the people… was that a sign that there was something greater to come through him as promised? If it is so important for us to be baptised, then why did Jesus not baptize any in his name… the disciples baptized but it was not till later that they were given the command to baptize in the Name of Jesus. So what were they baptizing into beforehand… have you got any clues that I have over looked on this on.
The baptism into Jesus was that water baptism or Spirit Baptism? – John said: I indeed baptize you with [water unto repentance]: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall {baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire}: (KJV)
I don't see that is water baptism but something far greater. Now I can see that baptism is practiced but as Peter's words in Acts 11 state: {And I remembered the “word of the Lord”, how he said, `John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with [the] Holy Spirit.'}
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you {in [into] the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins}, and ye shall [receive the gift of (the) Holy Spirit].
Do you think they all marched off to the lake and had a mass baptism?
My question is – what is the meaning of the cross if baptizm is needed for sin to be remissed. It is Christ's blood that has taken away our sin according to Paul and Isaiah 53. The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world… Why then do we need to be baptised as well – an OT principle of outward cleansing. Is it simply a sign of surrender and a symbol of dying to self or is it something you have to do for the salvation and remission of sin to begin in us?
One thing – It is strange to note how many times they baptized into the Name of Jesus, not the Father Son and HS… I see what you mean about Matthew 28:19.
What was Jesus' baptism of, Holy Spirit and Fire… It was not two baptisms was it – to me it is one “all inclusive baptism” into this name = ALL Jesus Represents – and you received the gift “Spiritual Dynamite” as a result – something we need all the more today.
Hi A7,
There are many popular views on salvation and they all have their avid believers. Popularity has never been our aim.
But instead we are searching here for biblical truth and not popular fantasy. We need to know what is written on these matters so we have a safe foundation to build our faith on.“The road is narrow and few will choose it”
Hi A7,
The doorway of The torn flesh of Jesus was not opened till he died. It was symbolised with the tearing of the curtain in the temple at that same moment [Matt 27.51, Heb 6.19, 9.24, 10.20] allowing access for all in him directly to God, as symbolised by the Holy of Holies.So all baptisms prior to his death were baptisms of repentance such as John was responsible for. The apostles then were as John, preparing men to receive the seed of the gospel truth that, if watered and fed according to obedience, would grow up unto their salvation.
Amen Malcolm,
Those in Christ are united in the one Lord by sharing the baptism, and sharing the Spirit too.Hi Malcolm,
Eph 4.3f
” being diligent to preserve the UNITY of the Spirit in the bond of peace. For there is one body and one Spirit..”
1Cor 12.4-13
“Now there are a variety of gifts but the same Spirit…but to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good..to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit…But one and the same Spirit works all these things…..faith by the same Spirit for by the one Spirit we were all baptised into one body, whether jews or greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit”Amen we are all sharers in the One and the same Spirit who are in Christ.
As I said when baptism other that water baptism is intended it is specifed, as it is here.
“For BY the one Spirit we were all baptised into one body”
Eph 2.22
“in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit”Wasn't disagreeing,
one baptism in water guaruntees we will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
However water baptism does not guaruntee you actually repented…There are lots of people that go through a marraige ceremony, I don't think many of them can truly claim that God joined them together, especially when in many cases a divorce follows shortly afterwards
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 01 2006,04:25) Wasn't disagreeing,
one baptism in water guaruntees we will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
However water baptism does not guaruntee you actually repented…There are lots of people that go through a marraige ceremony, I don't think many of them can truly claim that God joined them together, especially when in many cases a divorce follows shortly afterwards
Hi Malcolm,
The promise in Acts 2.39 is for all generations but it has to be given from the one that John the baptist was not fit to untie the shoelaces of.It is given, not automatically, but by the laying on of hands or through prayer, asked for as a gift from our Father.[Lk 11.13]
And the promise is that having repented you SHALL not might, or if you behave… you SHALL recieve it if you have repented.
Hi Malcolm,
Acts 2 38
” ….and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”
So how was this shown in practice?
Acts 8.13f
“And even Simon himself believed; and after being baptised he continued on with Philip……they sent them Peter and John who came down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for He had not yet fallen on any of them; THEY HAD SIMPLY BEEN BAPTISED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon Magus saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money…”'Shall be saved' is also a true promise, but not all who begin the journey obey and finish it safely.
If the Holy Spirit is behind it and you were ordained to it, you will come God's way…
If you are led by the Spirit that Spirit will confess to the Truth, not refuse it…
And yes I know that our will has much to do with it, but God has ways of dealing with us when our will proves problematic.
As many as I love I rebuke and chasten…
It is not as many as love Him, but who He loves, who He chose…Hi Malcolm,
We do not have the apostles with us so the fallback position isASK AND YOU WILL RECEIVE as in Lk 11.
Apostle means one sent by God, another word for Apostle is missionary, we still have them.
1 Cor 12:28 says God has set first in the church apostles, secondarily prophets (preachers), thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. It is not a sequential list that ends with speaking in tongues…Hi,
So biblical unitarian faith seems to rely on the OT and bring doubts about the New Testament to the fore. Because of apparent inconsistencies they prefer to reject parts of the NT rather than seeking more inspiration from the Spirit to understand how the New marries with the Old.They are like the Jews who would not respond to the message of Christ that caused Paul to quote Isaiah to them in frustration in Acts 28.26. They could not see the kingdom because they had not trusted God and obeyed.
Hey Nick,
I am not too sure I agree that they rely on the OT and bring doubts on the NT. So far all the writings i have read have a large amount of scripture from the NT. As I am not a scholar in Greek or Hebrew, I find it hard to know if some of the word uses and sentence restructuring is correct.
I would be very interested to know what your belief is on who or what the HOLY SPIRIT is. As far as I can understand from the Biblical Unitarians, they believe in the gift of holy spirit and the HOLY SPIRIT being another name for God… I find this position interesting, what is your view on this. You seem to hold this view but then other times I am not too sure what you believe on this.
Acts 2 38
” ….and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” should it not read… and you shall recieve the gift of holy spirit… not of the Holy Spirit… there does not seem to be an article before the word Holy.Acts 2 38
Then Peter said unto them , Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins , and ye shall receive the gift of the [] Holy Ghost .
[*pneuma] – is it translated the Holy Spirit because of the 4151 before the Holy 40 and then the Ghost for 4151 – there is no, 3588 ho ho, including the feminine he hay, and the neuter to to in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):–the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
Yes A7,
I have gone back to the biblical unitarian site and found they do say Jesus is the literal Son of God and that he is the Son of David through Mary so I have unfairly maligned their beliefs. Thank you for the rebuke.
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