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Quote (Lightenup @ June 12 2012,14:45) BD, Is 2 Peter not a book you have read?
2 Peter 317You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Pet 2:18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
2 Pet 15Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Do any of the other 'saviors' have an eternal kingdom BD. Do any other 'saviors' provide salvation to all mankind, BD?
Do you see that Peter calls Jesus his Lord and Savior and that Lord and Savior has an eternal kingdom. Perhaps any other human savior was a type of the ultimate savior who has an eternal kingdom and to whom belongs the glory, i.e. Jesus our Lord and Savior.
Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.Moses is mentioned by name, do you understand that he was a Saviour.
Luke 16:29
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.Jesus says:
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.Jesus was annointed by God to be His salvation to those who believe that Jesus was sent by God and what he heard from God to teach us.
Nehemiah 9:27
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.Obadiah 1:21
And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.Jesus is Awesome no doubt but pay attention:
Mark 10:40
But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.Quote (Lightenup @ June 11 2012,21:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2012,20:41) Quote (Lightenup @ June 10 2012,21:11) I agree that the one who sits on the throne is the Lord God Almighty. Also, I agree that Him who sits on the throne is the Lord and God of the four living creatures and the 24 elders.
The Son is part of a Father/Son unity with the one on the throne that is being addressed.
Sorry Kathi, but according to the passage, the Lamb is someone OTHER THAN the Lord and God who sits on the throne.Surely Jesus does not take the scroll from his own hand.
Mike you didn't read my statement correctly. The Lamb is the Son and the Son is in unity with the Father. The Father is on the throne. The Son is not being addressed until the next chapter. That doesn't at all mean that they are not a unity just because both are not on the throne in this context.Jesus takes the scroll from the Father. There was no creature able to do this. Notice it doesn't say that there was no 'other' creature able to do this. Jesus is not a creature, i.e. created being. fyi.
Could we say the four creatures are “in unity with” with their God, also? Do you, as a Christian, strive to be one with (in unity with) the Father and the Son?Using the phrase “in unity with” leaves many possibilities, so I won't deny that the Son works “in unity with” his Father and God.
But there is no denying that the passage I quoted lists the Father alone as “God Almighty”, and “our Lord and God” – because the Son is listed as someone completely different from the One who sits on the throne.
You correctly identify that “Jesus takes the scroll from the Father”. But what you seem to gloss over is the fact that Jesus takes the scroll from “God Almighty”, and “our Lord and God”.
If he takes the scroll FROM God Almighty, then he is neither God Almighty, nor a part of God Almighty. If he was either of these two things, then he would, in effect, be taking a scroll from his own hand.
Anyway, the main point I was making with this passage is that Jehovah, our heavenly Father, is also “our Lord and God”. So your understanding of 1 Cor 8:6, in which the Father is God and Jesus is Lord in some Godhead, must be flawed.
peace,
mikeHi Mike and BD,
So sorry that I haven't been around much lately. I've been having too much fun enjoying the outdoors
I think that the situation that you both are wrestling with is that you are comparing the creatures with the head of the creatures and not seeing that Jesus AND the Father are in the 'head of the creatures' group and Moses, the 'four creatures,' and all other creatures are not in the 'head of the creatures group.' For instance, Jesus and the Father are in the 'head' over the church group. The 'head over the church group' have two persons in that group…the Father and the Son. The Son is directly over that group and the Father is over Him. We see that there are two that are in the 'head over the church group.'Can you both see that Moses would be a member of the group that Jesus would be the head over? BD? Mike?
Assuming that you can see this, BD, when you mention Moses as a 'savior,' it would be helpful for you to understand that Moses was a type of Christ and not a savior equal to Christ. The OT gives us earthly examples of divine truths. However, the earthly examples are far inferior to the divine. Moses was an earthly example of the one from above…Jesus.
Mike,
You said:Quote
Could we say the four creatures are “in unity with” with their God, also? Do you, as a Christian, strive to be one with (in unity with) the Father and the Son?Using the phrase “in unity with” leaves many possibilities, so I won't deny that the Son works “in unity with” his Father and God.
But there is no denying that the passage I quoted lists the Father alone as “God Almighty”, and “our Lord and God” – because the Son is listed as someone completely different from the One who sits on the throne.
You correctly identify that “Jesus takes the scroll from the Father”. But what you seem to gloss over is the fact that Jesus takes the scroll from “God Almighty”, and “our Lord and God”.
If he takes the scroll FROM God Almighty, then he is neither God Almighty, nor a part of God Almighty. If he was either of these two things, then he would, in effect, be taking a scroll from his own hand.
Anyway, the main point I was making with this passage is that Jehovah, our heavenly Father, is also “our Lord and God”. So your understanding of 1 Cor 8:6, in which the Father is God and Jesus is Lord in some Godhead, must be flawed.
Quote Could we say the four creatures are “in unity with” with their God, also? Do you, as a Christian, strive to be one with (in unity with) the Father and the Son? Our role is to be united as brothers and sisters in the Father and the Son by their Holy Spirit. The Father and the Son are in unity as our head and Christians are to be in unity as a body which is under the head. We are not to be in unity AS the head but AS the body. The Father and the Son are in unity AS THE HEAD OF THE BODY. Do you see the difference? Together They are our head…notice I didn't say that together they are our heads. In a similar fashion, I say that together, They are our God…I do not say that together they are our Gods. God would mean supreme authority here and not person.
Kathi,
There are many points in my last post that I want you to directly address. I'm in no rush, so whenever you get the time.
As to your point, Peter was/is also a head of the church, since Jesus appointed him as the one to “feed my sheep”. So Peter is a head, Jesus is a head OVER Peter, and God is a head OVER Jesus. Jesus isn't in equality with his God any more than Peter is in equality with his Lord. Yet they are all heads of the church.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2012,18:42) Our role is to be united as brothers and sisters in the Father and the Son by their Holy Spirit.
Actually, our goal is to be accepted as brothers and sisters to Jesus, and sons and daughters to God.See the difference? Brothers and joint heirs to one, sons to the other.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2012,19:45) Kathi, There are many points in my last post that I want you to directly address. I'm in no rush, so whenever you get the time.
As to your point, Peter was/is also a head of the church, since Jesus appointed him as the one to “feed my sheep”. So Peter is a head, Jesus is a head OVER Peter, and God is a head OVER Jesus. Jesus isn't in equality with his God any more than Peter is in equality with his Lord. Yet they are all heads of the church.
Mike,
Is Peter part of the church body aside from the head or as the head? I assume you know that Peter feeds the sheep as part of the church body and not as the head over the church body. Peter is not part of the head over the church body but had authority within the church body. Do you see this?I will get to your other points, if not, just remind me
I'll wait. In the meantime, contemplate this scripture:
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.You'll notice that there are many heads, but never is one head the same being as another head.
Man>woman
Christ>man
God>ChristYou'll do well to actually learn this, and let it sink deep into your soul.
Mike,
Can you agree to this statement:
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is the only begotten God, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of the only begotten God is God the Father.No. I would agree that the head of every man is the only begotten god, and the head of the only begotten god is God Almighty.
But it is good to see that you agree God the Father is the HEAD OF the only begotten god. No more equality?
Kathi,
I feel us moving farther and farther away from my points in the second post on the previous page.
Mike,
I have never disagreed that the Father has authority over the Son. You have authority over your son, do you not? Does that make you unequal? You are both equally human even though there is a difference in position. The Father and Son are both equally god natured even though there is a difference in position which comes from their relationship of father to son.Can you see that position in a relationship can be unequal than another yet the nature is equal?
I'm sure we will get to the other points. Maybe even in a few posts here. Please answer the question because it is important.
Mike,
you said:Quote Could we say the four creatures are “in unity with” their God, also? Do you, as a Christian, strive to be one with (in unity with) the Father and the Son? Using the phrase “in unity with” leaves many possibilities, so I won't deny that the Son works “in unity with” his Father and God.
Every true believer that gives glory to God and the Lamb are to be in unity in many ways, i.e. in love, in purpose, etc. but are never in unity with God and the Lamb as the head of all mankind. THEY are both in unity as the head of all mankind. Everyone else is not. Their lies a big difference.
Below are some ways THEY ARE IN UNITY, together…saints are not united as they are in these matters:
THEIR WRATH will be poured out.
Rev 6:15
15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”THEY ARE the temple.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.THEY BOTH have glory and honor and praise and power for ever.
Rev 5:13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
So just in a few verses we see that THEY both are given praise, honor, glory and power forever. THEY both are the temple in heaven. THEIR wrath is to come on 'a day.'
Now, are saints in unity with the Father and the Son AS the temple? No, the Father and the Son ARE the temple FOR the saints.
Will the saints wrath be poured out with the wrath of the Father and the Son on the day of 'their' wrath?, No, the Father's and the Son's wrath will be poured out.
Will the saints be in unity as the head over themselves with the Father and the Son? No again! It is the Father and the Son that are in unity as head over the saints.Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2012,18:24) Mike,
I have never disagreed that the Father has authority over the Son. You have authority over your son, do you not? Does that make you unequal? You are both equally human even though there is a difference in position. The Father and Son are both equally god natured even though there is a difference in position which comes from their relationship of father to son.Can you see that position in a relationship can be unequal than another yet the nature is equal?
I'm sure we will get to the other points. Maybe even in a few posts here. Please answer the question because it is important.
You've called them equally “God Almighty“. If one is the head over the other, then they can't be equal.Also, to answer your important question, I don't consider begotten to be equal nature with unbegotten.
I don't consider created to be equal nature with uncreated.
We've been down this road, and will have to agree to disagree on Jesus and HIS GOD being “equal in nature”.
And since there is no scripture that specifically says Jesus and HIS GOD (who, btw, is the same God as OUR GOD) have equal natures, your assertion that they do is speculation.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2012,18:46) So just in a few verses we see that THEY both are given praise, honor, glory and power forever. THEY both are the temple in heaven. THEIR wrath is to come on 'a day.'
Many are “given praise, honor, glory and power”. God has the most of all of these things, His firstborn Son has the second highest amount, and so on down the line.And the fact that Jesus brings down wrath and God brings down wrath doesn't make them the same “Unity Godhead”. The god Chemosh brought down wrath on the Israelites after the Moabite king sacrificed his son………… but that doesn't make Chemosh part of an “Almighty Godhead”.
Did you miss the part where Jesus rules in the power OF Jehovah, his God? Or the part where Jehovah, his God, placed his enemies at his feet so that he could destroy them?
Here are the other points:
1. But there is no denying that the passage I quoted lists the Father alone as “God Almighty”, and “our Lord and God” – because the Son is listed as someone completely different from the One who sits on the throne.
You correctly identify that “Jesus takes the scroll from the Father”. But what you seem to gloss over is the fact that Jesus takes the scroll from “God Almighty”, and “our Lord and God”.
If he takes the scroll FROM God Almighty, then he is neither God Almighty, nor a part of God Almighty. If he was either of these two things, then he would, in effect, be taking a scroll from his own hand.
2. Anyway, the main point I was making with this passage is that Jehovah, our heavenly Father, is also “our Lord and God”. So your understanding of 1 Cor 8:6, in which the Father is God and Jesus is Lord in some Godhead, must be flawed.
Mike,
you said:Quote You've called them equally “God Almighty”. If one is the head over the other, then they can't be equal. I have said that the Father is God Almighty because He is with the Son and their Spirit…in unity. His might is demonstrated through His Son's might and the power of THEIR Spirit.
The Father, Son and their Spirit are in an indivisible and eternal unity. They together form our supreme authority. The Father represents the Almighty God and the Son also represents the Almighty God. Each can be referred to as the Almighty God/YHVH in some contexts and then there are contexts that just speak about one of the members and calls Him “Almighty God/YHVH.”
Quote
Also, to answer your important question, I don't consider begotten to be equal nature with unbegotten.Begetter and begotten are showing relationship to each other as well as nature. They are not equal in their relationship, but they are equal in nature because one was begotten and one was the begetter of the begotten.
Mike,
Quote Many are “given praise, honor, glory and power”. God has the most of all of these things, His firstborn Son has the second highest amount, and so on down the line.
The Son receives the SAME honor as the Father. The Son IS the power of God.I'll wait for your response to my two points, Kathi. We're getting off track with stuff we've already discussed MANY times before – stuff that you just claim, with no scriptural backing.
For example, which scripture says the Son receives the “same honor” as his own God? (And don't say John 5:23, for that means, “you honor the Father, also honor the Son”. It doesn't specify it is the SAME honor.)
Mike,
Quote
1. But there is no denying that the passage I quoted lists the Father alone as “God Almighty”, and “our Lord and God” – because the Son is listed as someone completely different from the One who sits on the throne.There are two persons involved. This context is speaking to one as God Almighty and the other as the Lamb. The context is not meant to be saying that the Father is God Almighty apart from the Lamb but is meant to reveal the Lamb as also being given honor and power and praise WITH the Father which shows that THEY are both worthy of these things forever. This passage in Rev 4 and 5 is not meant to teach that the Lamb is not involved in creation or that the Lamb is not almighty or not God. I believe that what is meant to be demonstrated by the scene of Rev 4 and 5 is that the Lamb is revealed as the only one worthy to take the scroll from the Father and no one apart from Him is worthy and that together they are both given praise, glory, and honor for ever and ever. We need to keep it simple and not go beyond context.
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