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Genesis 16:3
So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.NETNotes offers this thought:
To be his wife: Hagar became a slave wife, not on equal standing with Sarai. However, if Hagar produced the heir, she would be the primary wife in the eyes of society. When this eventually happened, Hagar become insolent, prompting Sarai’s anger.Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2012,23:04) Revelation 15:3
and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations.Notice Moses even gets top billing here and by name
This is similar to the “Song of Moses” in the wilderness. Notice that although it is called “The Song of Moses”, it refers to a song Moses and Miriam sang TO THEIR GOD, ie: The Song Moses sang to praise his God.Now notice the lyrics of “The Song of Moses and the Lamb”. Likewise, it refers to the song Moses and the Lamb sing to praise their God Jehovah. In their song, Moses and the Lamb sing,
“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.
4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”Jesus sings these words to his God and our God, who he calls The Lord God Almighty.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 08 2012,15:03) Mike,
Do you think that Hagar was Abraham's wife?BD said:
Quote Ishmael had the very first covenant that God made with Abraham and that was the covenant of circumcision and it is an Everlasting Covenant and of course Ishmael was legitimate Hagar was his WIFE you are sorely misled on this subject.
no need to guess it is in the bible unlike many of your claimsGenesis 16:3
So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2012,15:39) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2012,23:04) Revelation 15:3
and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations.Notice Moses even gets top billing here and by name
This is similar to the “Song of Moses” in the wilderness. Notice that although it is called “The Song of Moses”, it refers to a song Moses and Miriam sang TO THEIR GOD, ie: The Song Moses sang to praise his God.Now notice the lyrics of “The Song of Moses and the Lamb”. Likewise, it refers to the song Moses and the Lamb sing to praise their God Jehovah. In their song, Moses and the Lamb sing,
“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.
4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”Jesus sings these words to his God and our God, who he calls The Lord God Almighty.
I knew it. Mike you beat me to the punch with the Genesis verse I didn't even see what you wrote before I posted it…lol
BD and Mike,
Gen 25:1Now Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. 2She bore to him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and Ishbak and Shuah. 3Jokshan became the father of Sheba and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim and Letushim and Leummim. 4The sons of Midian were Ephah and Epher and Hanoch and Abida and Eldaah. All these were the sons of Keturah. 5Now Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac; 6but to the sons of his concubines, Abraham gave gifts while he was still living, and sent them away from his son Isaac eastward, to the land of the east.
It is clear that Sarah gave her maidservant to Abraham to give children TO SARAH.
Gen 16:1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife had borne him no children, and she had an Egyptian maid whose name was Hagar. 2So Sarai said to Abram, “Now behold, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I will obtain children through her.”
There seems to be a difference between the children of the 'free' wife and the children of the 'slave' wife as well as between the two types of wives.
From something I read on the matter here http://bible.org/questio….D-bible
“The eldest son’s special position was widely recognized in the ancient Near East, though it was not usually extended to sons of concubines or slave-girls (cf. Gn. 21:9-13; Jdg. 11:1-2).”Galations 4
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”c 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.So, it seems that title and the inheritance of the 'Firstborn' goes to the firstborn of the 'free woman' when there is more than one wife producing children.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 10 2012,07:59) BD and Mike, Gen 25:1Now Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. 2She bore to him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and Ishbak and Shuah. 3Jokshan became the father of Sheba and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim and Letushim and Leummim. 4The sons of Midian were Ephah and Epher and Hanoch and Abida and Eldaah. All these were the sons of Keturah. 5Now Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac; 6but to the sons of his concubines, Abraham gave gifts while he was still living, and sent them away from his son Isaac eastward, to the land of the east.
It is clear that Sarah gave her maidservant to Abraham to give children TO SARAH.
Gen 16:1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife had borne him no children, and she had an Egyptian maid whose name was Hagar. 2So Sarai said to Abram, “Now behold, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I will obtain children through her.”
There seems to be a difference between the children of the 'free' wife and the children of the 'slave' wife as well as between the two types of wives.
From something I read on the matter here http://bible.org/questio….D-bible
“The eldest son’s special position was widely recognized in the ancient Near East, though it was not usually extended to sons of concubines or slave-girls (cf. Gn. 21:9-13; Jdg. 11:1-2).”Galations 4
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”c 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.So, it seems that title and the inheritance of the 'Firstborn' goes to the firstborn of the 'free woman' when there is more than one wife producing children.
Nice try but first you have to admit that Hagar was the wife of Abraham and after you do that you can read this:Deuteronomy 21:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
This is what you are saying happened, you are saying the COMMAND of GOD was broken the truth is ISHMAEL is the Firstborn and God fulfilled HIS own law through ISLAM it is obvious that the Jewish scribes played with words and moved them around but the truth is still in there thanks to those Honest scribes that didn't try to play with words and you know they did because that is written also
Jeremiah 8:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.BD,
You want me to admit that Hagar was Abraham's wife…well, she is called his wife, she is also called a concubine, she is also called a slave woman and an Egyptian, she is not the proper wife of Abraham, Sarah was the only one recognized as that.Read this from John Gill on Galatians 4:
Galatians 4:30
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?…. This is a Talmudic form of citing Scriptures, and answers to , “what says the Scriptures (e)?” the passage referred to is Genesis 21:10 and which are the words of Sarah to Abraham; but inasmuch as she spake them under divine inspiration, and they were approved of and confirmed by God, as appears from Genesis 21:12 they are ascribed to God speaking in the Scripture:
cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. There is very little difference in the citation from the original. The apostle omits the word “this” in both clauses, which though very proper to be expressed by Sarah, to point out the person she meant, and as being in a vehement passion, was not absolutely necessary to be retained by the apostle, since by the context there is no difficulty of knowing who is meant by her; though the Alexandrian copy has the word in it: and instead of “with my son, with Isaac”, the apostle says, “with the son of the free woman, Sarah”; there speaking of herself, whose character the apostle gives, in opposition to the bondwoman: in like manner a Jewish writer (f) reads and interprets it,
“for the son of this woman shall not be heir , “with the son of the mistress”.''
The casting of Hagar and Ishmael out of Abraham's family was a type and emblem of the rejection of the carnal and self-righteous Jews from the Gospel church state; nor ought any carnal persons, any that are after the flesh, unregenerate ones, or that trust to their own righteousness, to be in a Gospel church; as they will also be excluded and thrust out of the kingdom of heaven, into which no unregenerate and unrighteous, or self-righteous persons shall enter. The Jews make this ejection of Hagar and her son to be both out of this world and that which is to come (g). The reason given why the one should not be heir with the other perfectly agrees with the Jewish canons; which was not because he was the son of a concubine, for the sons of concubines might inherit, if they were Israelites, and free, but because he was the son of a bondwoman, for thus they run (h);
“all that are near of kin, though by iniquity, are heirs, as they that are legitimate; how? thus for instance, if a man has a son that is spurious, or a brother that is spurious, lo, these are as the other sons, and the other brethren for inheritance; but if, , “his son is by an handmaid”, or by a strange woman, he is no son in any of these matters, , “and no heir at all”:''
and again (i),
“an Israelite that hath a son by an handmaid, or by a Gentile, seeing he is not called his son, he that he has after him by an Israelitish woman, , “is the firstborn for inheritance”, and takes the double portion.''
The reason assigned for non-inheritance in the text implies that the children of the free woman, the spiritual seed of Abraham, shall inherit the privileges of God's house, the blessings of grace, and eternal glory; they are children of the promise, and heirs according to it; when the children of the bondwoman, self-righteous ones, shall not; for the inheritance is not of the law, neither are they heirs who are of the works of it; nor is it to be enjoyed by mixing the law and Gospel, grace and works, in the business of salvation.
(e) T. Bab. Beracot, fol. 9. 2.((f) R. Abraham Seba, Tzeror, fol. 21. 3.((g) Pirke Eliezer, c. 30. (h) Maimon. Hilch. Nechalot, c. 1. sect. 7. (i) Ib c. 2. sect. 12.
from: http://gill.biblecommenter.com/galatians/4.htm
So, in summary, Ishmael was not the son of an Israelite but of a bondwoman…an Egyptian, and thus does not receive the inheritance. The son who comes after him by the Israelite is called the Firstborn for receiving the inheritance.
Your scripture in Deut 21 most likely has to do with a man that has more than one 'free wife' and is not talking about sons from the bondslave wives. However, in the case of Jacob…he gave Joseph, who was the firstborn of Rachel but not his actual firstborn of all his children, received more inheritance than the rest of his brothers.
Gen 48:21Then Israel said to Joseph, “Behold, I am about to die, but God will be with you, and bring you back to the land of your fathers. 22“I give you one portion more than your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and my bow.”
So, BD whenever scripture doesn't go your way, are you going to scream “scribal error” or dig deeper as if it is true and there must be a reason for what seems to you to be an inconsistency? Why do you want to be associated with the son of the bondslave woman instead of the son of the free woman? Isn't that what you are doing, or am I wrong?
“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.
4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”Kathi, in this song that the Lamb sings to his God, why do you suppose he calls his God “Lord God Almighty” and “King of the nations”? Why do you suppose he tells his God, “you alone are holy”? And who does the Lamb say all nations will worship?
(Btw, I think you once claimed that Jesus never addressed Jehovah as his Lord. This song says differently in verse 4.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 13 2012,07:27) BD,
You want me to admit that Hagar was Abraham's wife…well, she is called his wife, she is also called a concubine, she is also called a slave woman and an Egyptian, she is not the proper wife of Abraham, Sarah was the only one recognized as that.Read this from John Gill on Galatians 4:
Galatians 4:30
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?…. This is a Talmudic form of citing Scriptures, and answers to , “what says the Scriptures (e)?” the passage referred to is Genesis 21:10 and which are the words of Sarah to Abraham; but inasmuch as she spake them under divine inspiration, and they were approved of and confirmed by God, as appears from Genesis 21:12 they are ascribed to God speaking in the Scripture:
cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. There is very little difference in the citation from the original. The apostle omits the word “this” in both clauses, which though very proper to be expressed by Sarah, to point out the person she meant, and as being in a vehement passion, was not absolutely necessary to be retained by the apostle, since by the context there is no difficulty of knowing who is meant by her; though the Alexandrian copy has the word in it: and instead of “with my son, with Isaac”, the apostle says, “with the son of the free woman, Sarah”; there speaking of herself, whose character the apostle gives, in opposition to the bondwoman: in like manner a Jewish writer (f) reads and interprets it,
“for the son of this woman shall not be heir , “with the son of the mistress”.''
The casting of Hagar and Ishmael out of Abraham's family was a type and emblem of the rejection of the carnal and self-righteous Jews from the Gospel church state; nor ought any carnal persons, any that are after the flesh, unregenerate ones, or that trust to their own righteousness, to be in a Gospel church; as they will also be excluded and thrust out of the kingdom of heaven, into which no unregenerate and unrighteous, or self-righteous persons shall enter. The Jews make this ejection of Hagar and her son to be both out of this world and that which is to come (g). The reason given why the one should not be heir with the other perfectly agrees with the Jewish canons; which was not because he was the son of a concubine, for the sons of concubines might inherit, if they were Israelites, and free, but because he was the son of a bondwoman, for thus they run (h);
“all that are near of kin, though by iniquity, are heirs, as they that are legitimate; how? thus for instance, if a man has a son that is spurious, or a brother that is spurious, lo, these are as the other sons, and the other brethren for inheritance; but if, , “his son is by an handmaid”, or by a strange woman, he is no son in any of these matters, , “and no heir at all”:''
and again (i),
“an Israelite that hath a son by an handmaid, or by a Gentile, seeing he is not called his son, he that he has after him by an Israelitish woman, , “is the firstborn for inheritance”, and takes the double portion.''
The reason assigned for non-inheritance in the text implies that the children of the free woman, the spiritual seed of Abraham, shall inherit the privileges of God's house, the blessings of grace, and eternal glory; they are children of the promise, and heirs according to it; when the children of the bondwoman, self-righteous ones, shall not; for the inheritance is not of the law, neither are they heirs who are of the works of it; nor is it to be enjoyed by mixing the law and Gospel, grace and works, in the business of salvation.
(e) T. Bab. Beracot, fol. 9. 2.((f) R. Abraham Seba, Tzeror, fol. 21. 3.((g) Pirke Eliezer, c. 30. (h) Maimon. Hilch. Nechalot, c. 1. sect. 7. (i) Ib c. 2. sect. 12.
from: http://gill.biblecommenter.com/galatians/4.htm
So, in summary, Ishmael was not the son of an Israelite but of a bondwoman…an Egyptian, and thus does not receive the inheritance. The son who comes after him by the Israelite is called the Firstborn for receiving the inheritance.
Your scripture in Deut 21 most likely has to do with a man that has more than one 'free wife' and is not talking about sons from the bondslave wives. However, in the case of Jacob…he gave Joseph, who was the firstborn of Rachel but not his actual firstborn of all his children, received more inheritance than the rest of his brothers.
Gen 48:21Then Israel said to Joseph, “Behold, I am about to die, but God will be with you, and bring you back to the land of your fathers. 22“I give you one portion more than your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and my bow.”
So, BD whenever scripture doesn't go your way, are you going to scream “scribal error” or dig deeper as if it is true and there must be a reason for what seems to you to be an inconsistency? Why do you want to be associated with the son of the bondslave woman instead of the son of the free woman? Isn't that what you are doing, or am I wrong?
Sy KathiYou have failed again. Isaac nor Ishmael were Israelites because at the time there was no such thing as an Israelite, didn't you know that?
Abraham was not an Israelite or a Jew how could he have been either he came before both.
First understand who ISRAEL is and what was his original name andthen realize the fact that there were no Israelites when Abraham was alive nless you believe that Jacob was the Father of Abraham.
READ by the MIGHT of YOUR LORD READ
Bd, You are right that Israelites weren't there yet, my bad!
However that does not dismiss the fact that there is a distinction between the son of the free woman and the son of the bondslave woman.Your verse in Deuteronomy wasn't in play either at that time from what I understand. If you can show different, let me know.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2012,20:07) “Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.
4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”Kathi, in this song that the Lamb sings to his God, why do you suppose he calls his God “Lord God Almighty” and “King of the nations”? Why do you suppose he tells his God, “you alone are holy”? And who does the Lamb say all nations will worship?
(Btw, I think you once claimed that Jesus never addressed Jehovah as his Lord. This song says differently in verse 4.)
Mike,
We aren't told that the Lamb is singing this. All these things can apply to both the Father and the Son. They are both holy, both almighty, and both God, and both will have all nations come and worship before them, and both have righteous act that have been revealed.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2012,13:43) Bd, You are right that Israelites weren't there yet, my bad!
However that does not dismiss the fact that there is a distinction between the son of the free woman and the son of the bondslave woman.Your verse in Deuteronomy wasn't in play either at that time from what I understand. If you can show different, let me know.
You are again misled come let the word of God teach you:Genesis 15:2-4
New International Version (NIV)
2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[a] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”
4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.”
Now I ask you is Ishmael the flesh and blood of Abraham or not? God is telling him that a servant”slave” will not be his heir but his own flesh and blood will be.
Ishmael is the flesh and blood of Abraham if you deny this you deny all reality.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 13 2012,20:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2012,20:07) “Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.
4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”Kathi, in this song that the Lamb sings to his God, why do you suppose he calls his God “Lord God Almighty” and “King of the nations”? Why do you suppose he tells his God, “you alone are holy”? And who does the Lamb say all nations will worship?
(Btw, I think you once claimed that Jesus never addressed Jehovah as his Lord. This song says differently in verse 4.)
Mike,
We aren't told that the Lamb is singing this. All these things can apply to both the Father and the Son. They are both holy, both almighty, and both God, and both will have all nations come and worship before them, and both have righteous act that have been revealed.
It is “The Song of Moses and the Lamb”, Kathi.So either these things are being said about both Moses and the Lamb, or Moses and the Lamb are the ones who wrote/sing this song to their God. (Compare with “The Song of Moses” in Exodus. Is that song ABOUT Moses? Or is it a song Moses sang TO his God?)
Please try to address my questions again, now that you realize this song was sung BY Moses and the Lamb TO their God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2012,13:43) Bd, You are right that Israelites weren't there yet, my bad!
However that does not dismiss the fact that there is a distinction between the son of the free woman and the son of the bondslave woman.Your verse in Deuteronomy wasn't in play either at that time from what I understand. If you can show different, let me know.
I just realized what you implied but look again:2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[a] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”
4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.”
The complaint of Abraham was not to havea servant be an heir but his own flesh and blood so how could Ishmael be a slave if he is the flesh and blood of Abraham as was Abraham's wish.
BD,
Obviously there was some sense of inheritance when God appeared to Abram but what I was saying is that the laws of inheritance had evolved and what came out in Deuteronomy came after Abraham, just as the beginning of the name of Israel which began at a wrestling match with Jacob, the grandson of Abraham.Regarding the point that Ishmael was Abraham's flesh and blood, he was also the flesh and blood of an Egyptian woman and considered the son of a bond-slave and not the son of the free woman. Ishmael is also the result of the will of man and not the will of God.
When YHWH said that Abram's heir would be a son who is his own flesh and blood, God was not referring to Ishmael who was brought about by man's will, but was referring to the one who was to be named Isaac, who came by the spirit and the promise, the will of God, the intended one who fulfilled the promise of the son who was Abraham's own flesh and blood. Isaac was the only son of Abraham that God was going to fulfill His promise of establishing a people unto Himself. This line of descendants has the forefathers of Abraham, ISAAC, and Jacob, not Abraham, Ishmael, and whomever. We can be sons of the free woman and no longer sons of the bond-slave woman by faith in the Son of God, the only Begotten God, our one LORD, Jesus Christ. He is the only way.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2012,19:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 13 2012,20:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2012,20:07) “Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.
4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”Kathi, in this song that the Lamb sings to his God, why do you suppose he calls his God “Lord God Almighty” and “King of the nations”? Why do you suppose he tells his God, “you alone are holy”? And who does the Lamb say all nations will worship?
(Btw, I think you once claimed that Jesus never addressed Jehovah as his Lord. This song says differently in verse 4.)
Mike,
We aren't told that the Lamb is singing this. All these things can apply to both the Father and the Son. They are both holy, both almighty, and both God, and both will have all nations come and worship before them, and both have righteous act that have been revealed.
It is “The Song of Moses and the Lamb”, Kathi.So either these things are being said about both Moses and the Lamb, or Moses and the Lamb are the ones who wrote/sing this song to their God. (Compare with “The Song of Moses” in Exodus. Is that song ABOUT Moses? Or is it a song Moses sang TO his God?)
Please try to address my questions again, now that you realize this song was sung BY Moses and the Lamb TO their God.
Mike,
I considered what you said but when looking at the context and the events leading up to this and who the 144,000 were, I believe this is a new song from an old song to acknowledge the Lamb with the Father as together as their one almighty deliverer.These 144,000 are the Jews that come to faith in Jesus Christ as their Messiah and LORD during the tribulation who they knew before as the 'Arm of YHWH' and 'Word of YHWH.' Now they know the Arm of YHWH/the Word of YHWH as the Arm of YHWH/Word of YHWH/Lamb of YHWH God. See Rev 14 to see that this 'song' is a new hymn for the the 144,000 to sing. Remember the Jews did not receive Jesus as the Messiah and now to receive Him, their old song took on new meaning.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2012,07:34) BD,
Obviously there was some sense of inheritance when God appeared to Abram but what I was saying is that the laws of inheritance had evolved and what came out in Deuteronomy came after Abraham, just as the beginning of the name of Israel which began at a wrestling match with Jacob, the grandson of Abraham.Regarding the point that Ishmael was Abraham's flesh and blood, he was also the flesh and blood of an Egyptian woman and considered the son of a bond-slave and not the son of the free woman. Ishmael is also the result of the will of man and not the will of God.
When YHWH said that Abram's heir would be a son who is his own flesh and blood, God was not referring to Ishmael who was brought about by man's will, but was referring to the one who was to be named Isaac, who came by the spirit and the promise, the will of God, the intended one who fulfilled the promise of the son who was Abraham's own flesh and blood. Isaac was the only son of Abraham that God was going to fulfill His promise of establishing a people unto Himself. This line of descendants has the forefathers of Abraham, ISAAC, and Jacob, not Abraham, Ishmael, and whomever. We can be sons of the free woman and no longer sons of the bond-slave woman by faith in the Son of God, the only Begotten God, our one LORD, Jesus Christ. He is the only way.
Once again Kathi you have to study your own scriptures for there is NO difference between slave and free, Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus so your point there has NO VALUE.A far as you saying that Ishmael was not born by the will of God it is a foolish statement and is not scriptural it is merely your opinion. God made a separate promise to Sarah and Abraham and he fulfilled that promise but that in no way diminishes the birth of Ishmael and so therefore he was blessed as well.
BD,
you said:Quote Once again Kathi you have to study your own scriptures for there is NO difference between slave and free, Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus so your point there has NO VALUE. Was Ishmael 'in Christ'…are you 'in Christ?' What does it mean to you to be 'in Christ?'
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2012,04:49) BD,
you said:Quote Once again Kathi you have to study your own scriptures for there is NO difference between slave and free, Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus so your point there has NO VALUE. Was Ishmael 'in Christ'…are you 'in Christ?' What does it mean to you to be 'in Christ?'
Actually it really only means to be a true Believer in God just as Jesus said “Eternal Life is to know the Only True God”Ishmael certainly believed in the same God of Abraham and had the faith of Abraham look what scripture says:
Genesis 21:20
And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
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