- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,19:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,11:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2012,22:40) Then the LORD (YHWH) rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD (YHWH) out of the heavens.” (19:24) Note the two YHWH’s referenced in the verse. The Targum of Johnathan reads “Then Yahweh's Word rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Amorah – from Yahweh out of the heavens.” Both Abraham and Lot had a face to face encounter with a manifestation of Yahweh in fleshly form.
Kathi,Do you agree with this? Do you think that the Father Himself was one of the three men who came to Abraham, and that Jesus was one of the two men who went on to Sodom?
Mike,
That doesn't say that.One of the three men was YHWH, the Son (The Word of the Lord) and the other two were angels.
I'm pretty sure that your source was pointing to 19:24, in which it seems like one YHWH, who was on the ground, made it rain fire and sulfur from the YHWH who had left to go back to heaven:24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
I now understand that you don't agree with this claim, but just so you know, Lot refered to one of the two remaining men as “adonay” in verse 18.
Mike,
Quote I'm pretty sure that your source was pointing to 19:24, in which it seems like one YHWH, who was on the ground, made it rain fire and sulfur from the YHWH who had left to go back to heaven: No, the YHWH that was talking face to face with Abraham was the one who rained fire and sulfur from the YHWH that always was in heaven.
Mike,
The YHWH speaking with Abraham said that He was going to go to Sodom and Gomorrah:Gen 18:20Then Jehovah said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,19:56) Jesus is the only begotten God…one of these times you will maybe get it.
That part MAY be correct – depending on which mss you translate John 1:18 from.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,19:56) Jesus is not an angel as I have shown you……..
I'll go along with that, since there exists no word “angel” in the Hebrew or Greek texts. Jesus IS, however, a MESSENGER of God, just like Michael, Gabriel, and the three messengers who came to Abraham at the oak of Mamre.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,19:56) …….but not a created angel…He created the angels.
He was the FIRST created MESSENGER, and the other spirit messengers were subsequently created through him. He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. One created. One had things created through him.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,20:01) MarYah = the Aramaic expression of the sacred name YHWH. MarYah may refer to either the Heavenly Father or Yahshua the Son.
LORD = the English expression of the sacred name YHWH. That English word may refer to the Heavenly Father, or to Jesus the Son.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,20:07) No, the YHWH that was talking face to face with Abraham was the one who rained fire and sulfur from the YHWH that always was in heaven.
1. That's obviously not what your source was claiming.2. Can you show me where your understanding is CLEARLY explained in the scriptural passage?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,20:12) Mike,
The YHWH speaking with Abraham said that He was going to go to Sodom and Gomorrah:Gen 18:20Then Jehovah said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
Yes, but then the one who said those words remained with Abraham while the other two walked on to Sodom.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,13:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,20:12) Mike,
The YHWH speaking with Abraham said that He was going to go to Sodom and Gomorrah:Gen 18:20Then Jehovah said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
Yes, but then the one who said those words remained with Abraham while the other two walked on to Sodom.
MikeI don't care how far we may be in certain understandings of God and religion but when we get a certain thing we almost always agree 100%, that was a BRILLIANT observation.
Actually, I don't even care about the differences because we both believe in 100% Monotheism and ONE MOST HIGH GOD and this is the greatest Commandment to love that ONE GOD with all our hearts and to love each other as we love ourselves and in these regards we are 100% brothers in the faith.
At it is said “the devil is in the details” It would better for everyone to accept the Shema of Israel “Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Eḥad – Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One”
No matter what a person believes the details may be they could never go wrong by sticking to the scriptural truth. There is no god but God.
If Jesus refers to himself as the son of God why woul someone try to call him the Almighty when Jesus says the Almighty is greater than him? The devil is in the details
Yes Asana, Jehovah our God is one. Not two who unite into one. Not three persons in one. But just “one”.And that ONE Almighty God has a Son named Jesus. The Son is not named “YHWH”, but “Jesus”. And this Jesus is not the Most High God Jehovah, but His Son.
It seems to be such a straightforward teaching. The only reason there is so much discrepancy in beliefs is because MEN started to teach THEIR OWN doctrines that aren't taught in the scriptures, and then many other people eventually bought into these unscriptural doctrines.
Mike,
Quote Lot refered to one of the two remaining men as “adonay” in verse 18. Adonay/adonai is a plural word and used in reference to both angels.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,21:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,20:12) Mike,
The YHWH speaking with Abraham said that He was going to go to Sodom and Gomorrah:Gen 18:20Then Jehovah said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
Yes, but then the one who said those words remained with Abraham while the other two walked on to Sodom.
YHWH eventually left Abraham at end of chapter 18. The next mention of Him is in Genesis 19 when He is raining brimstone down from YHWH in heaven.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2012,23:25) Mike, Quote Lot refered to one of the two remaining men as “adonay” in verse 18. Adonay/adonai is a plural word and used in reference to both angels.
Okay, but the Hebrew of verse 17 says, “HE said……….”, which prompts some versions (NIV, NASB) to render it as “ONE of them said…………”.Then, in verse 18, Lot apparently responds to that ONE, because all the second person pronominal suffixes are singular………. ie: “if I have found favor in your eyes”, “you have made great your kindness”, and “you have acted”.
This implies that Lot was answering only the ONE angel who told him to escape to the mountains in verse 17.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2012,23:27) The next mention of Him is in Genesis 19 when He is raining brimstone down from YHWH in heaven.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.Three came to Abraham, right? How many came to Lot? Who is the one who stayed behind with Abraham while the other two went on to Lot?
See Kathi? You can't have “YHWH the Son” being the one who stayed behind with Abraham, and also have “YHWH the Son” being one of the OTHER two who went on to Sodom.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2012,08:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2012,23:27) The next mention of Him is in Genesis 19 when He is raining brimstone down from YHWH in heaven.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.Three came to Abraham, right? How many came to Lot? Who is the one who stayed behind with Abraham while the other two went on to Lot?
See Kathi? You can't have “YHWH the Son” being the one who stayed behind with Abraham, and also have “YHWH the Son” being one of the OTHER two who went on to Sodom.
Yes Kathi can, she can have Jesus be YHWH the son of YHWH the angels of YHWH even if it doesn't make any sense at all because Kathi will tell you it doesn't explain it in the scriptures but her ideas are correct anyway.She has totally made Jesus far more superior than his own God, Jesus can be God and a Man, he can live and die simultaneously, He can separate himself so much from his creation that he forgets what he created and becomes anxious and afraid of his own creation. He can have the Father greater to him and equal to him at the same time he can be both the Almighty most high and the son of the Almighty Most HighMike,
Quote You can't have “YHWH the Son” being the one who stayed behind with Abraham, and also have “YHWH the Son” being one of the OTHER two who went on to Sodom. Where did I say that He was one of the other two? YHWH was talking face to face with Abraham, the other two 'men' who were angels went on ahead to Sodom. YHWH left Abraham then went to Sodom like He said He was going to do and destroyed it with fire and brimstone from the YHWH in heaven.
BD,
Let me clarify for you since you seem to be stuck in your diatribe…Jesus is YHWH the Son
Jesus is YHWH the Son of YHWH the Father.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who is 'the sent one' (malach) of YHWH the Father.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who is the memra/logos (Word) of YHWH the Father.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who is the arm of YHWH the Father.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who apart from Him, YHWH the Father did not create anything.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who apart from Him, YHWH the Father did not save anyone.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who emptied Himself; came and died as a man for even ungrateful men who refuse to honor Him as Lord YHWH the Son to the glory of YHWH the Father.
Jesus is YHWh the Son who will judge all mankind.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who together sits on the throne with YHWH the Father to reign over all.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who with the Father has dominion, honor and power forever over all creation.
Jesus is YHWH the Son who has YHWH the Father who is greater than Him because He is the Father and Jesus is the Son.So that is one YHWH the Father and one YHWH the Son who interdependently exist and who have always existed together with their Spirit as one GENERAL YHWH existence sharing in one and the same almighty nature.
Jesus was never afraid of what He and the Father created, btw.
BD, you seem to have a need for not truly getting it straight. Why is that?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 22 2012,17:06) Mike, Quote You can't have “YHWH the Son” being the one who stayed behind with Abraham, and also have “YHWH the Son” being one of the OTHER two who went on to Sodom. Where did I say that He was one of the other two? YHWH was talking face to face with Abraham, the other two 'men' who were angels went on ahead to Sodom. YHWH left Abraham then went to Sodom like He said He was going to do and destroyed it with fire and brimstone from the YHWH in heaven.
When did “YHWH the Son” arrive in Sodom? In which verse do we read about this arrival?12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here………..? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
Kathi, can you show CLEAR scriptural proof that there is such a being as “YHWH the Son”?
Can you show CLEAR scriptural proof that this “YHWH the Son” was one of the three that came to Abraham?
Can you show CLEAR scriptural proof that this “YWHW the Son” came to Sodom after the other two had already arrived?
The Memra is God, yet is a separate personality from the Father and Holy Spirit:
Quote The Jerusalem Targum Exodus 3 [14] And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Rabbi Tzvi Nassi cites the Jerusalem Targum to Shemot (Exodus) 3:14:
And the Word [Memra] of the Lord said unto Moses: “I am He who said unto the world, ‘Be!’ And it was; and who in the future shall say to it, ‘Be!’ And it shall be.” And He said: “Thus thou shalt say to the children of Israel;
‘I Am hath sent me unto you’.”4
Quote Two YHVHs in the TaNaK – The Memra “Whenever the Targums come to passages where YHVH is anthropomorphized or seen, or where two or more YHVHs are indicated by the text, the Targums will often substitute “The Word [Memra] of YHVH” for YHVH.
In Gen. 19:4 the Tenach says: And YHVH rained brimstone and fire upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, from YHVH, from the heavens
The Hebrew grammar here indicates that one YHVH rains fire from another YHVH).
THe Targum Jonathan substitutes “The Word of YHVH / the LORD” for the first of the two YHVHs as follows:
And the Word of the YHVH caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gommorah, brimstone and fire from the YHVH in heaven.
In another example the Torah, Ex. 24:1 – a (YHVH is the speaker, see Ex. 20:1-2)
Now He [YHVH] said to Moses, “come up to YHVH… “The Targum Jonathan paraphrases the speaker in Ex. 20:1 with the substitution “the Word [Memra] of YHVH” in place of “YHVH.”
And the Word of the Lord spoke all these glorious words … So it would seem that one of these entities called “YHVH” in these Torah passages was actually understood by the Targumists as being the “Word of YHVH.”
http://oneinmessiah.net/TargumMemraTheWordOfGod.htmJesus' name is the Word of God.
Rev 19:13 And he wore a garment soaked with blood, and his name is called The Word of God.
Edited to fix Bible reference.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 23 2012,00:13) Whenever the Targums come to passages where YHVH is anthropomorphized or seen, or where two or more YHVHs are indicated by the text, the Targums will often substitute “The Word [Memra] of YHVH” for YHVH.
That sounds about right, Kathi. Since “word” sometimes metaphorically refers to “spokesperson”, then when the word of YHWH comes to, say, Isaiah, speaking the words of YHWH to him, we can assume that this “word” is the “spokesperson of YHWH”, right?But how do we know that all these spokespersons (or any of them, for that matter) are the same as the Spokesman called “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13?
Heb 1 tells us that God has spoken to us in MANY ways from the beginning, and recently through His Son Jesus. If it was always Jesus, I think Heb 1 would say something different.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
