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Kathi,
I was just adding to your “Jesus is not an angel being” thread, when I noticed something odd.
1 Timothy 5:21 NIV
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.How can you list this scripture as proof that Jesus is not an angel without noticing that, according to the logic you're using, it also proves Jesus is not God?
It seems that God, Jesus, and the angels are all listed separately. And if that is enough to prove Jesus is not an “angel”, it is also enough to prove he is not “God”, right?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2012,06:00) I used the word 'extreme.' I didn't say that He didn't want to suffer or not. He did accept it but could of called on legions of angels to take Him from it…but He did not. Jesus showed amazing courage, see here: Matt 26:47While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48Now he who was betraying Him gave them a sign, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the one; seize Him.” 49Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him. 50And Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you have come for.” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.
51And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54“How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?”
55At that time Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me. 56“But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets.” Then all the disciples left Him and fled.
His purpose was to fulfill scriptures but could have been rescued if He asked His Father for that.
Do you think the disciples left him and fled because they believed he was God Almighty and had nothing to fear?Listen, All of what you are saying would make perfect sense if you were talking about a MAN but what reason would God have to fear man? You said Jesus created us flesh, blood and bone that he gave us these feelings and emotions and then you say he has no control over or knowledge of his own creation, that he doesn't realize that his creation cannot destroy him that if he is God he is only going through a “play” of sorts.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2012,20:59) Kathi, I was just adding to your “Jesus is not an angel being” thread, when I noticed something odd.
1 Timothy 5:21 NIV
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.How can you list this scripture as proof that Jesus is not an angel without noticing that, according to the logic you're using, it also proves Jesus is not God?
It seems that God, Jesus, and the angels are all listed separately. And if that is enough to prove Jesus is not an “angel”, it is also enough to prove he is not “God”, right?
Mike,
It is clear that you do not follow along very well and something is keeping you from understanding. There is one God, Jehovah, the Father which your verse calls God, and Jesus is our one Lord Jehovah Yeshua, the Messiah. Your verse calls Him Jesus Christ. He is neither an angel nor is He God the Father. He is however the only begotten God-our one Lord JEHOVAH YESHUA, the Messiah.BD,
Jesus did NOT fear man. He was completely courageous and at the same time expecting to suffer. It was for 'that hour' that He came. He knew that He would be with the Father soon but He knew that physically, His flesh body was going to be tortured to death in order to get to the Father. Who would look forward to the torture, BD? You would have to be insane!Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2012,06:31) It is clear that you do not follow along very well and something is keeping you from understanding…………..
Oh. I guess the words “the Father” were missing in the version I quoted.The Greek text of 1 Tim 5:21 distinguishes Jesus as someone other than “God”, period. It does not say “God the Father”, Kathi…………. just “God”. Ie: Jesus is someone other than the one Paul knew as “God”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2012,06:31) There is one God, Jehovah, the Father which your verse calls God, and Jesus is our one Lord Jehovah Yeshua, the Messiah.
So then the Father is not a Lord, and the Son is not a God? Hmmm……………….Kathi, are you able to show us clear and undeniable scriptural PROOF of this assessment of yours?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2012,06:33) BD,
Jesus did NOT fear man. He was completely courageous and at the same time expecting to suffer. It was for 'that hour' that He came. He knew that He would be with the Father soon but He knew that physically, His flesh body was going to be tortured to death in order to get to the Father. Who would look forward to the torture, BD? You would have to be insane!
IF Jesus was a God then he couldn't have died for your sins as any sort of sacrifice because nothing was lost, Jesus didn't stay dead right? What did Jesus actually give up, what was the actual sacrifice? If he was a man and only a man then it would be a great achievement but a God who knows he cannot die sacrifices nothing at all.BD,
If God asked you to go from being a man to being man in a cricket's body with a cricket's limitations, so that you can rescue the crickets at large, don't you think that you would be sacrificing a lot just to become so much lower than a man?? Just the fact that He lowered Himself and emptied Himself was a great sacrifice, let alone being crucified as if you were not the hero which you were but the evil scum they think you are.You say that if Jesus was only a man, His willingness to die would be a great achievement. Well, many men died courageously as martyrs and they are heroes of the faith but their death was not able to offer victory over sin to every man of all time, past, present and future. That is why this man Jesus had to be something more than a man. Scripture is clear that a righteous man cannot take away the sins of even one other man through his giving of his life. Realize there have been many martyrs for the Father and Son and none of them were worthy to remove the seals from the scroll in Rev. Only Jesus was found worthy.
Why don't you live as a cricket for 33 years and tell me that you didn't sacrifice anything in order to do that, even if you didn't have to die to return as you are.
Mike,
you said:Quote Oh. I guess the words “the Father” were missing in the version I quoted. LOL, did YOU believe that the one referred to as God in that context was not the Father?
Quote The Greek text of 1 Tim 5:21 distinguishes Jesus as someone other than “God”, period. It does not say “God the Father”, Kathi…………. just “God”. Ie: Jesus is someone other than the one Paul knew as “God”.
And Paul knew that Jesus was the one Lord Jehovah Yeshua, the Messiah. Paul knew that we have one God, the Father and one Lord Jehovah Yeshua, the Messiah.There is no conflict here, one is God the other the only begotten God, both with equal attributes and interdependently almighty.
Quote So then the Father is not a Lord, and the Son is not a God? Depends on context because both go be Lord and God.
Quote Kathi, are you able to show us clear and undeniable scriptural PROOF of this assessment of yours? 1 Cor 8:6
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2012,21:03) 1 Cor 8:6
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.
Kathi,The only thing that translation is “proof” of is that certain people have mistranlated “marya” as “Lord Jehovah”.
I have now shown you FIVE different Aramaic dictionaries that say “marya” means “lord” – not “Lord Jehovah”.
I have shown you FOUR different Aramaic Interlinears that say the same thing.
How many will it take, Kathi?
Here is a good article that I just came across…
THE PRE-INCARNATE EXISTENCE OF THE SON
The scripture says that, “No man has seen God, at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared Him” (John 1:18) If no man has seen God at any time, then who appeared in various manifestations as YHWH to men of old?
Who did Adam walk with in the garden?
Who led the children of Israel through the wilderness?
Who was it that was known as YHWH and appeared and spoke with men before Yeshua’s incarnation?
All creation was brought into being by the Son, the Word (Col.1:15-16), and it was the Son who was in the Garden with Adam (Gen.2:8) John the apostle identifies Yeshua the Messiah as the Word of Yahweh who took on flesh as a human tabernacle “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through it, and separately from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:1-3; 14)
This was not a new concept. He was known as the “Word” prior to His incarnation because He expressed the mind and will of the Father. It was something that was already understood – that YHWH God had a representation of Himself in the form of His Son who was manifested on His behalf and was called “the Word”, or as it is called in Aramaic, “the Memra”; and later known as the “Holy One of Israel”.
In the Aramaic Targums (from the second Temple period) where Yahweh is manifested in human-like appearance, the texts have replaced Yahweh with: “Yahweh's Word”. – i.e. Yahweh’s “Memra”.
In his pre-carnate existence He was also known as His Son (Hebrews 1:8-9): “Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? …
“What is His Name and what is His Son’s Name, if you know?” (Prov.30:4). See also Proverbs 8 – & verses 30-31
“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)
Yeshua Himself said, “Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8: 58); and that Abraham rejoiced to see His day (John 8:56)
Many of the early Church fathers wrote concerning Yeshua's deity on the understanding that He was the Son who had manifested to the children of Israel before His incarnation. Gregory of Nyssa (240 AD) says it very explicitly, identifying Yehsua the Messiah as the One whom Moses encountered on the mount. “Christ Jesus was so bright that Moses could not look upon Him. He was an object of dread to the cherubim, also to the seraphim and His throne blazed in splendour”
The Israelites beheld the Angel of Yahweh (the Son) who led them, as well as His Presence (holy Spirit) in the pillar of cloud that rested upon them. We see the two mentioned in Exodus 14:19 – note verse 24. Note also where He says that He will not go up with them but will only send His Angel (the Angel of Yahweh – i.e. the Son – Exodus 33:1-3)
Although he was sometimes called the “Angel of Yahweh”, he was not of an angelic order (Hebrews 1:5-6) The Father can’t be seen by man and so He sent His Son who was begotten of Him.
Paul identified this One as “Christ”, their Messiah (1 Cor.10:4). So, if it was the Son of God who led them and manifested himself to them then, and at other times, that Being could not be termed “God” because they saw him and no man has seen God at any time, nor can man see God and live. (Ex. 33:20; Judges 13:22) Take note: that in these manifestations he was not limited to the state of humanity as he was in his incarnation and yet he is still not referred to as “God”. He was representing the Father and speaking on behalf of Him.
HIS REPRESENTATION OF THE FATHER
In His incarnation Yeshua came in His Father’s Name (John 5:43). In His manifestations prior to that there is an even stronger representation of the Father with little or no attention at all on His own identity.
There are many occasions where He speaks for the Father, on His behalf as a complete stand-in for the Father. Then there are the appearances to men like Gideon (Judges 6:11-12) where he addressed the Angel of Yahweh as if it were YHWH Himself (6:22-24). As also to Samson’s parents (Judges 13:3,6, 9,13, 16-22).
In both cases they recognised that they had “seen God” and lived. They had seen His manifestation in the Son.
On other occasions we see two persons identified as“Yahweh.
In Genesis 19:1, it says: “The two angels came to Sodom in the evening.” The word ‘angels' (malachim), means “messengers” or “ambassadors”. Therefore we do not know from the word itself if it is speaking of people from the earth or angels from heaven. The context determines the meaning. After the two angelic messengers went on to Sodom, Yahweh returned to Abraham and revealed to him His purposes regarding Sodom.
“And the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before Yahweh. And Abraham drew near, and said: 'Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?” (Genesis 18:22-23) Abraham addressed the physical manifestation of God who stood before him as “Yahweh” – the Word. Then, “When He had finished talking to Abraham Yahweh went away, and Abraham returned home.”(18:33)
Yahweh said to Abraham that he would go down to Sodom to see if it was really according to the outcry that had come before Him (18:21). The two angels then went down to Sodom with the authority of Yahweh to save Lot and carry out the heavenly judgement. (19:12-13)
Yahweh goes from speaking with Abraham to speak with Lot whom we may assume is the one who had been raising an outcry against the city (18:20-21; 2 Peter 2:7, 8) When Lot petitions Him to only go as far as Zoar before the judgement, Yahweh answers him, “Hurry, escape there,, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.”(19:22)
“Then the LORD (YHWH) rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD (YHWH) out of the heavens.” (19:24) Note the two YHWH’s referenced in the verse.
The Targum of Johnathan reads “Then Yahweh's Word rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Amorah – from Yahweh out of the heavens.” Both Abraham and Lot had a face to face encounter with a manifestation of Yahweh in fleshly form.
According to Yerushalayim's Targum it was to the Memra (the Word) that Abraham prayed “And Avraham worshipped and prayed in Yahweh's Word's name, and said: 'You are Yahweh, who sees me, but You cannot be seen'” Note that Avraham prays prays in Yahweh's Word's name, but he prays to the Yahweh who cannot be seen. Here there are two 'Yahwehs' that he is identifying – the One in whose Name he prays to the One to Whom he is praying This whole account in scripture reveals that there are two Yahweh's, one who called down fire and brimstone while on the earth, from the other who was in heaven sending it. Note that Abraham was able to look upon the face of God and not die. The Yahweh which Abraham saw was the pre incarnate Son of God.
from here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Trinity/Pre-Existence
In Isaiah 43:10-12 we have YHWH speaking of Israel as His chosen people and of His promised salvation. In verse 1 & 3, the Son is speaking. He is the “holy One of Israel”. In verse 11, it is both the Father.and the Son speaking – the Son is speaking on behalf of the Father in the Father’s name, “Ya
hweh”, which is done as part of their operation in unity. The phrase “I, even I” would be better translated from the Hebrew as “I and I”. If it were just the Father or the Son speaking, then the correct Hebrew grammar would be just one “I” (ani in Hebrew) But in using “I and I”, it is indicating that it is both the Father and the Son that are saying this in unison.Other bible texts which show similar revelations of a Yahweh who is in heaven, and of a Yahweh who reveals himself on earth are Zechariah 2:11; 12:8; Isaiah 48:15-16.
David knew and had a relationship with both the Father, YHWH God, and the Lord, His Son. – see Psalm 110:1 In the Hebrew, it is …. “YHWH said to My Adon (Lord), sit at My right hand” (two different personalities). This “Lord” of Psalm 110 is the Son, who “has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God” (Peter 3:22)
“And we believe and are sure that you are that Messiah, the Son of the living God.” (John 6:69)
Mike,
you said:Quote I have now shown you FIVE different Aramaic dictionaries that say “marya” means “lord” – not “Lord Jehovah”. I have shown you FOUR different Aramaic Interlinears that say the same thing.
Mike, if an interlinear is going to translate from Aramaic to English, you will see Aramaic words translated as English words, not as Hebrew or Latin words. You won't find YHWH or Jehovah in those types of references because they are not English words.
When you want to find out what a particular word in French is translated as in English, you look in the French to English dictionary. You won't find a German word for the definition. Get it? You won't find a Hebrew or Latin word as a definition in an English dictionary.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2012,22:40) The Father can’t be seen by man and so He sent His Son who was begotten of Him. Paul identified this One as “Christ”, their Messiah (1 Cor.10:4). So, if it was the Son of God who led them and manifested himself to them then, and at other times, that Being could not be termed “God” because they saw him and no man has seen God at any time, nor can man see God and live. (Ex. 33:20; Judges 13:22) Take note: that in these manifestations he was not limited to the state of humanity as he was in his incarnation and yet he is still not referred to as “God”. He was representing the Father and speaking on behalf of Him.
Hmmmm…………. So God Himself cannot be seen by men, therefore God sent His angels who CAN be seen by men?Kathi, what is clear from scripture is that God many times sent angels to men, and these angels were often called “YHWH” or “God” because they came to speak on behalf of YHWH God.
What is NOT clear from scripture is that the SAME angel of God was sent each time. Nor is it clear from scripture that Jesus was EVER one of the angels sent.
Who was the angel that God sent to Daniel? The angel who came to Daniel is the only one who is named, as far as I remember. Wouldn't it be more sensible, if we're going to insist without any proof that it was always the SAME angel, to insist that it was always Gabriel – since we know without a doubt that it was him at least twice?
Kathi, this is just more wishful thinking, and even if we were to agree with it, it would still make two clear points:
1. The Most High God cannot be seen by men, but Jesus can. What does that tell you?
2. Jesus is an ANGEL of the Most High God Jehovah. What does that tell you?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2012,22:46) Mike,
you said:Quote I have now shown you FIVE different Aramaic dictionaries that say “marya” means “lord” – not “Lord Jehovah”. I have shown you FOUR different Aramaic Interlinears that say the same thing.
Mike, if an interlinear is going to translate from Aramaic to English, you will see Aramaic words translated as English words, not as Hebrew or Latin words. You won't find YHWH or Jehovah in those types of references because they are not English words.
When you want to find out what a particular word in French is translated as in English, you look in the French to English dictionary. You won't find a German word for the definition. Get it? You won't find a Hebrew or Latin word as a definition in an English dictionary.
Yet I keep finding the ENGLISH word “Lord” where the Aramaic word is “marya”. I am NOT seeing “YAHWEH”, which IS an English transliteration of “YHWH”, nor am I seeing “JEHOVAH”.All your sources seem to claim that the Aramaic word “marya” means “Lord Yahweh”, right? So why am I not seeing “Lord Yahweh” in these interlinears?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2012,22:40) Then the LORD (YHWH) rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD (YHWH) out of the heavens.” (19:24) Note the two YHWH’s referenced in the verse. The Targum of Johnathan reads “Then Yahweh's Word rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Amorah – from Yahweh out of the heavens.” Both Abraham and Lot had a face to face encounter with a manifestation of Yahweh in fleshly form.
Kathi,Do you agree with this? Do you think that the Father Himself was one of the three men who came to Abraham, and that Jesus was one of the two men who went on to Sodom?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2012,13:55) BD,
If God asked you to go from being a man to being man in a cricket's body with a cricket's limitations, so that you can rescue the crickets at large, don't you think that you would be sacrificing a lot just to become so much lower than a man?? Just the fact that He lowered Himself and emptied Himself was a great sacrifice, let alone being crucified as if you were not the hero which you were but the evil scum they think you are.You say that if Jesus was only a man, His willingness to die would be a great achievement. Well, many men died courageously as martyrs and they are heroes of the faith but their death was not able to offer victory over sin to every man of all time, past, present and future. That is why this man Jesus had to be something more than a man. Scripture is clear that a righteous man cannot take away the sins of even one other man through his giving of his life. Realize there have been many martyrs for the Father and Son and none of them were worthy to remove the seals from the scroll in Rev. Only Jesus was found worthy.
Why don't you live as a cricket for 33 years and tell me that you didn't sacrifice anything in order to do that, even if you didn't have to die to return as you are.
Your comment is illogical because if I created the cricket I could easily live like the cricket for I would have made the cricket “good” just as God said in genesis “It was Good” therefore me being the creator the foreknowledge would always be my comfort, People who are afraid are afraid of uncertainty and the unknown, even when people have to go through extreme pain there is a great difference from those who know and those who don't expect what it may be like.Those who are able to prepare for extreme pain can in some cases even control the pain and if you were God surely you would be able to control every part of your body at least as well as any human can and there are people today that can go through surgery with no pain medication so God would certainly be able to do what a human can do, right?
So anxiety comes from not knowing and fearing but how could God not know and fear, you have to understand you are saying this was an ETERNAL PLAN, that Jesus had like forever to consider what would occur and in a TINY gap of time somehow fell apart. I am saying if you are 33 and are about to go through some pain that you have no idea what it will feel like, you go to the garden, kneel, pra and cry and ask for come sort of miracle to spare your life. If you are God you don't because it wouldn't matter
BD,
The righteous man can not die even for the sins of one other. Jesus suffered and died for all the sins of the world to offer salvation to those who believe in Him.1 Peter 3:8But the conclusion is that you should all be in harmony; suffer with those who are suffering, love one another, be merciful and humble. 9And you should not repay a person evil for evil, neither insults for insults; but to the contrary of these things, give blessings, for you are called to this, that you would inherit blessing.
10Therefore, whoever desires life and loves to see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips that they do not speak deceit.
11Let him move away from wickedness and let him do good; let him seek peace and run after it.
12Because the eyes of THE LORD JEHOVAH are upon the righteous and his ears hear them; the face of the Lord is against the evil.
13And who is he who will do evil to you if you will be zealous for good? 14And if you suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed, and you should not be afraid of those who terrorize you, and be not provoked. 15But hallow THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah in your hearts, and be ready to return a defense to everyone who requests a statement from you about the hope of your faith, in meekness and in reverence, 16As you have a good conscience, so that those who speak against you as against evil people, may be ashamed as people who reject your beautiful way of life, which is in The Messiah. 17For it is an advantage to you that when you are doing good works, you suffer evil, if it is thus the will of God, but not while you are doing evil. 18Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit. 19And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol, 20These who from the first were not convinced in the days of Noah when the long-suffering of God commanded that there would be an ark, upon the hope of their repentance, and only eight souls entered it and were kept alive by water. 21For you also are saved in it by that simile in baptism, not when you wash the body from impurity, but when you confess God with a pure conscience, and by the resurrection of Yeshua, The Messiah, 22He who has been escorted into Heaven, and he is upon the right hand of God, and the Angels and the Principalities and the Powers are subjected unto him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,11:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2012,22:40) Then the LORD (YHWH) rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD (YHWH) out of the heavens.” (19:24) Note the two YHWH’s referenced in the verse. The Targum of Johnathan reads “Then Yahweh's Word rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Amorah – from Yahweh out of the heavens.” Both Abraham and Lot had a face to face encounter with a manifestation of Yahweh in fleshly form.
Kathi,Do you agree with this? Do you think that the Father Himself was one of the three men who came to Abraham, and that Jesus was one of the two men who went on to Sodom?
Mike,
That doesn't say that.One of the three men was YHWH, the Son (The Word of the Lord) and the other two were angels.
Mike,
Quote 1. The Most High God cannot be seen by men, but Jesus can. What does that tell you? 2. Jesus is an ANGEL of the Most High God Jehovah. What does that tell you?
Jesus is the only begotten God…one of these times you will maybe get it. Also, Jesus is not an angel as I have shown you, He is the only begotten God that was used to be the Word of the Lord and in that way, was a messenger, but not a created angel…He created the angels.
Mike,
Quote So why am I not seeing “Lord Yahweh” in these interlinears? Well, one thing we know for sure is that Yahweh does exist, so if you can't find it in the interlinears, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The Odes of Shalome have MarYah as the:
8 MarYah = the Aramaic expression of the sacred name YHWH. YAH is its poetic abbreviation; in translation it is, “Sovereign Yahweh.” Or “Master Yahweh.” MarYah may refer to either the Heavenly Father or Yahshua the Son.
found here on page 8: http://www.scribd.com/doc/9655501/Odes-of-Shalome-Odes-Songs-of-Solomon
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