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Quote (bodhitharta @ July 13 2012,23:43) Quote (Lightenup @ July 14 2012,15:27) BD,
you said:Quote
Really, you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between a giver and a receiver.Do you think that the Father does not receive anything from the Son? Do you not think that two in a unity cannot give and the other receive? The fact that one gives certain things to the other does not in anyway discount that there is a unity who is Jehovah. This would be a natural thing for a father to do for a son…to give him all things.
KathiJesus worships GOD whom you call the Father. He says he WORSHIPS HIM and in-fact he doesn't make a difference from himself and any other Jew who WORSHIPs GOD so STOP acting ignorant on this subject.
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.JESUS clearly is saying WE KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP
He clearly said before that:
John 4:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
This is you, not worshiping the Father in Spirit and truth and deciding to make the one who worships HIM equal to HIM, you are sorely misguided.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
JESUS and ALL true believers WORSHIP THE FATHER as JESUS does. JESUS WORSHIPS GOD you degrade GOD and HIS Christ.
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.Please stop this nonsense you are looking at undisputable evidence you can't read “OUR GOD and HIS Christ” and believe they are equals or in anyway equivalent. GOD OWNS Christ, Christ is HIS servant, God is not the servant of Christ. Stop misleading people don't have Jesus reject you on the day of judgement because you tried to impress him with lies he will say depart from me you worker of iniquity he will say to you that you accuse him falsely and that he never told you to worship him and that he told you to WORSHIP GOD his GOD.
BD,
Of course the Lord of lords would worship His Father who is God of gods. The Father is greater than He. That in no way would discount them being a unity as Jehovah. They, as a unity are greater than all creation and they sit on the highest throne together! I worship Jehovah and believe that Jehovah is a unity of more than one person…the Father AND the Son.Quote (t8 @ July 16 2012,13:45) It amazes me why people just cannot accept that there is one God the Father. And that he is the only true God. It seems that the wayward heart of man will believe anything but that. I guess the reason from the enemies point of view for such is to allow confusion. Once you have more than one who is God, then all kinds of doctrines are possible which in turn causes all kinds of division which allows every evil work to follow.
I guess the god of this age is trying to get as many to break the first commandment as possible.
On this we are in 100% agreement. In kathi's case she doesn't even acknowledge the first commandment when it say “The Lord Thy God” How can that sentence possibly acknowledge 2 different beings?I will tell you t8 that is why I never argue with you for long about topics on God it is because you and people like Mike are following that most important commandment which means you also are capable of following what Jesus calls the second greatest commandment. I know after those pointswe have different beliefs and points of view but I would have to say nothing is as important to me then for someone to Ackowledge that there is only ONE GOD.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 14 2012,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,20:53) Mike,
Regarding:1 Timothy 6
13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.I believe that “God” here is the unity.
Let's see:13 In the sight of THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND JESUS, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus………………..
Hmmm…………. So “JESUS” is someone other than “THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND JESUS”?
Kathi, if the words say “God AND Jesus”, then it is clear to most people that TWO DIFFERENT ones are mentioned – only ONE of whom is “God”.
From what I read in the commentaries, it is clear that God is the unity and the testimony is from one of the members of the unity as He appeared in the flesh before Pilate. So it is NOT clear to most people as you say.Like this:
In the sight of the Church, and of the testimony of the Senior Pastor…I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the coming of the Senior Pastor which the church will bring about in her own time…Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,22:48) To all readers:
Mike said this:Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped. I have shown this to Mike before, see for yourself if no where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped:
Matt 2:1-2
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJVMatt 2:7-8
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
KJVMatt 2:11-12
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
KJVMatt 8:1-4
When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
KJVMatt 9:18-35
18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshiped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.32 As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
KJVMatt 14:26-36
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
KJVMatt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJVMatt 20:20-28
20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshiped him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
KJVMatt 28:8-10
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall
they see me.
KJVMatt 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshiped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJVMark 5:1-20
5 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshiped him,7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.17 And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
KJVMark 15:18-20
18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshiped him.
20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
KJVLuke 24:44 – 53
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshiped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.John 9:30-39
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvelous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
KJVHeb 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
KJVSo Mike, according to the translations of scripture that I have posted here, is Jesus worshiped in these scriptures? Yes or No? If you have trouble with this, I guess we can make a thread to vote on it so that you can see what others here say.
Mike,
Please answer the question at the end that is bolded. It says “according to the translations of scripture that I have posted here…”It is interesting that t8 knows that this is a closed discussion but has not respected that. Also, that he belittles my beliefs but rarely challenges me directly and when he does and I respond with a solid answer, he is not to be heard from again in the conversation. hmmm…This is the same guy that has said previously that he worships Jesus as the Son of God. Yet he is 'amazed' when someone worships Jesus as the Son of God. Does that sound like a confused person, a bit hypocritical maybe?
Quote (t8 @ July 16 2012,13:45) I have removed my post as I am not part of this discussion. Apologies to all.
I didn't know this discussion was closed to others, I never agreed to that. WE never as one agreed to that I guess you thought you were the unity spokeperson?So does God have 2 wills or one?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 15 2012,21:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 14 2012,11:51)
Let's see:13 In the sight of THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND JESUS, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus………………..
Hmmm…………. So “JESUS” is someone other than “THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND JESUS”?
Like this:
In the sight of the Church, and of the testimony of the Senior Pastor…
Funny, there is another one of those “and of” phrases that I didn't even notice. And just like in Revelation, where it means “the throne of God and [the throne] of the Lamb”, we can see that here it means “in the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and [the sight] of Christ Jesus……….”
But let's do your analogy using the “and of” that is in the scripture: In the sight of the Church, and of the Senior Pastor…
Does it still work for you?
1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.How about now? Are the elect angels also a part of the “God Unity” in this sentence? Or does it make more sense that “God” is one, “Christ Jesus” is another, and “the elect angels” are yet others?
The answer to your bolded question from before is: YES Kathi. The translations you posted describe people worshipping Jesus.
1. How about those same verses in the translation I quoted? Do any of them describe people worshipping Jesus? YES or NO?
2. Does the word “proskuneo” HAVE TO BE translated as “worship”? Or is it up the the translator?
3. Does the fact that Trinitarian translators generally render “proskuneo” as “worship” in the case of Jesus really PROVE that Jesus was worshipped by anyone? YES or NO?
Also, I'd like to hear your comment about John 9:38 that I posted. Do you suppose the Trinitarian translators got it right, and Jesus was God-worshipped by the formerly blind man in clear sight of the Pharisees – and they said nothing at all about it? Or do you suppose the NWT got that one right by translating as “And he did obeisance to him”?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 15 2012,22:01) This is the same guy that has said previously that he worships Jesus as the Son of God. Yet he is 'amazed' when someone worships Jesus as the Son of God. Does that sound like a confused person, a bit hypocritical maybe?
Slow your roll there, Sunshine.1. I'm sure t8 posted here accidentally, without even thinking about it being a closed discussion. He has since removed the post.
2. Remember the war I had with Keith a while back about closed threads? My vote was that as long as the invited members didn't bring my name into it, I would stay out. But………… if the invited members started slamming me, or mis-conveying my beliefs or whatever, I had a right to defend myself in that very thread. That being said, I don't think it's right of you to slam t8 in a thread where he is not allowed to defend himself.
3. Remember the scripture I just recently quoted, where the Israelites worshipped the LORD and the king? If you consider the simple act of bowing down to be “worship”, then I can see where t8 would “worship” whatever king Jehovah appointed over him – in this case, Jesus. But I'm sure his point is that he would give honor, praise and worship to the Son AS the Son – not as God Himself.
I think he meant he would show reverence to Jesus as the SON OF his God. That differs vastly from you giving reverence to Jesus as a PART OF your God..
Surely you understand the difference between “Son of God” and “God the Son”, right?
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2012,15:58) So does God have 2 wills or one?
Very good, Asana. I can't wait to see where this goes.Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2012,16:58) Quote (t8 @ July 16 2012,13:45) I have removed my post as I am not part of this discussion. Apologies to all.
I didn't know this discussion was closed to others, I never agreed to that. WE never as one agreed to that I guess you thought you were the unity spokeperson?So does God have 2 wills or one?
I got news for you BD, the closed discussion was set up by me in the OP. You were one of the members invited to continue our discussion we were having elsewhere.More news for you BD, you almost have never agreed to anything that I have said. This is not uncommon for two persons with two opposing spirits guiding them. Also, this discussion is merely that, certainly far from a unity. Within an unity, there is agreement
You ask if God has 2 wills or one. God the Father has a will and the only begotten God has a will which ultimately always wills to do the will of His Father. They are in total agreement and in perfect unity.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2012,14:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2012,16:58) Quote (t8 @ July 16 2012,13:45) I have removed my post as I am not part of this discussion. Apologies to all.
I didn't know this discussion was closed to others, I never agreed to that. WE never as one agreed to that I guess you thought you were the unity spokeperson?So does God have 2 wills or one?
I got news for you BD, the closed discussion was set up by me in the OP. You were one of the members invited to continue our discussion we were having elsewhere.More news for you BD, you almost have never agreed to anything that I have said. This is not uncommon for two persons with two opposing spirits guiding them. Also, this discussion is merely that, certainly far from a unity. Within an unity, there is agreement
You ask if God has 2 wills or one. God the Father has a will and the only begotten God has a will which ultimately always wills to do the will of His Father. They are in total agreement and in perfect unity.
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.This shows 2 different wills and although Christ gives up his own will it certainly can be shown here that when someone says “God willing” they are not talking about Christ Jesus, right?
Jesus said “NOT MY WILL”
Jesus said “Nevertheless, “Thine will be done”Which was the WILL of GOD because they are not in agreement because Jesus said his will was to have the cup removed from him so there are 2 wills at work here so which is the WILL of GOD?
It's getting to the point that I believe that if Jesus came to you and told you himself “Kathi, I am not god” you will either say you're not really Jesus or you will say “you are god, from my point of view”…lol
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,19:16) Quote (Lightenup @ July 15 2012,22:01) This is the same guy that has said previously that he worships Jesus as the Son of God. Yet he is 'amazed' when someone worships Jesus as the Son of God. Does that sound like a confused person, a bit hypocritical maybe?
Slow your roll there, Sunshine.1. I'm sure t8 posted here accidentally, without even thinking about it being a closed discussion. He has since removed the post.
2. Remember the war I had with Keith a while back about closed threads? My vote was that as long as the invited members didn't bring my name into it, I would stay out. But………… if the invited members started slamming me, or mis-conveying my beliefs or whatever, I had a right to defend myself in that very thread. That being said, I don't think it's right of you to slam t8 in a thread where he is not allowed to defend himself.
3. Remember the scripture I just recently quoted, where the Israelites worshipped the LORD and the king? If you consider the simple act of bowing down to be “worship”, then I can see where t8 would “worship” whatever king Jehovah appointed over him – in this case, Jesus. But I'm sure his point is that he would give honor, praise and worship to the Son AS the Son – not as God Himself.
I think he meant he would show reverence to Jesus as the SON OF his God. That differs vastly from you giving reverence to Jesus as a PART OF your God..
Surely you understand the difference between “Son of God” and “God the Son”, right?
Mike,
you said:Quote 1. I'm sure t8 posted here accidentally, without even thinking about it being a closed discussion. He has since removed the post.
He was aware that it was closed since he deleted others posts because it was a closed discussion. He probably forgot.Quote 2. Remember the war I had with Keith a while back about closed threads? My vote was that as long as the invited members didn't bring my name into it, I would stay out. But………… if the invited members started slamming me, or mis-conveying my beliefs or whatever, I had a right to defend myself in that very thread. That being said, I don't think it's right of you to slam t8 in a thread where he is not allowed to defend himself. That was totally different, t8 came on here slinging mud WITHOUT me mentioning him at all. I just responded to his post which he has now removed.
Quote 3. Remember the scripture I just recently quoted, where the Israelites worshipped the LORD and the king? If you consider the simple act of bowing down to be “worship”, then I can see where t8 would “worship” whatever king Jehovah appointed over him – in this case, Jesus. But I'm sure his point is that he would give honor, praise and worship to the Son AS the Son – not as God Himself. So you admit that it is ok to give worship to the Son as the Son. Thanks…that was a big step. You can quit changing all the proskuneo's from worship to obeisance now. Hoorah!
Quote I think he meant he would show reverence to Jesus as the SON OF his God. That differs vastly from you giving reverence to Jesus as a PART OF your God.. I think you can only guess. He can address that in some other thread if he wants.
Quote Surely you understand the difference between “Son of God” and “God the Son”, right? No difference at all in regards to the only begotten Son of God.
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2012,22:45) Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2012,14:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2012,16:58) Quote (t8 @ July 16 2012,13:45) I have removed my post as I am not part of this discussion. Apologies to all.
I didn't know this discussion was closed to others, I never agreed to that. WE never as one agreed to that I guess you thought you were the unity spokeperson?So does God have 2 wills or one?
I got news for you BD, the closed discussion was set up by me in the OP. You were one of the members invited to continue our discussion we were having elsewhere.More news for you BD, you almost have never agreed to anything that I have said. This is not uncommon for two persons with two opposing spirits guiding them. Also, this discussion is merely that, certainly far from a unity. Within an unity, there is agreement
You ask if God has 2 wills or one. God the Father has a will and the only begotten God has a will which ultimately always wills to do the will of His Father. They are in total agreement and in perfect unity.
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.This shows 2 different wills and although Christ gives up his own will it certainly can be shown here that when someone says “God willing” they are not talking about Christ Jesus, right?
Jesus said “NOT MY WILL”
Jesus said “Nevertheless, “Thine will be done”Which was the WILL of GOD because they are not in agreement because Jesus said his will was to have the cup removed from him so there are 2 wills at work here so which is the WILL of GOD?
BD,
Jesus ULTIMATELY did the Father's will though, didn't He? That is what I said…ultimately…read more carefully. Jesus laid down His own life, no one took it from Him.If someone says 'God willing,' they can be talking about either the Father or the Son or God in general as both since ultimately, the Son agrees to do the Father's will every time.
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2012,22:48) It's getting to the point that I believe that if Jesus came to you and told you himself “Kathi, I am not god” you will either say you're not really Jesus or you will say “you are god, from my point of view”…lol
According to scriptures, He is the only begotten God and was with God in the beginning. We are told to test the spirits. So when someone like the spirit leading you comes and says that Jesus wasn't the only begotten God I would have to also test that spirit with the word of God.That would be the same word of God that teaches us that God has an only begotten Son and that this only begotten Son literally died for our sins, not almost died.
Laugh all you like, it doesn't surprise me that the spirit within you would make fun of those who believe the word of God.
Mike,
Thank you for admitting:YES Kathi. The translations you posted describe people worshipping Jesus.
So, we don't have to read this from you again:
Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped. BD,
You said:Quote I never s that Jesus wasn't worshipped by some nor do the scriptures say the disciples worshipped Jesus so where did you get that from? Jesus told his disciples who to Worship and it wasn't him he told to Worship. I'm not sure what the first part of your statement meant but look at the part that I bolded. Then read this:
Matt 28:16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
So, I ask you again, BD…why did the disciples worship Jesus and Jesus allow it if it broke the first commandment?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2012,16:57) BD,
You said:Quote I never s that Jesus wasn't worshipped by some nor do the scriptures say the disciples worshipped Jesus so where did you get that from? Jesus told his disciples who to Worship and it wasn't him he told to Worship. I'm not sure what the first part of your statement meant but look at the part that I bolded. Then read this:
Matt 28:16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
So, I ask you again, BD…why did the disciples worship Jesus and Jesus allow it if it broke the first commandment?
Once again this is not about if people worshipped Jesus at time this is about did he command them to Worship him? In Matthew 28 it says some worshipped him and others were doubtful right?Solomon, David and all the kings received worship and it wasn't thought to break the first commandment unless theywere claiming to be God which Jesus did not do. You still don't understand that you cannot have One God with 2 wills, you cannot have a God where one “part” never died which proves He is everlasting and eternal and one who died which violates eternity. So is God eternal or has God been subject to death from the beginning. If you believe that a “God” died can or will the Father ever die? If not why not? Because you said they had the SAME nature.
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;
Can you show where Jesus taught or commanded them to worship him or treat him as a god? Even if Jesus was a god why would God Almighty whom you call the Father say
Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.By the way kathi since you keep saying “God” is a group word or Family title what about these other gods are they also families of unities and why is God separating Himself from all else and being very clear about it.
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