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Mike,
Regarding:1 Timothy 6
13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.I believe that “God” here is the unity. No one has seen this unity aside from a vision. A unity can send one of the members of the unity. A church can send her pastor, for instance. We know that Jesus is the ruler with the Father, and Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords and so this must refer to the Unity of Jehovah and not just the Father. The Father is not the only Ruler, He is not the only King of kings and He is not specifically said to be the Lord of lords. The Unity however is all those things.
Mike,
you said:Quote Where does scripture say no man has ever HEARD Jehovah? And where does scripture say any man has SEEN Him? Did you mean to ask: “Where does scripture says that any man has heard Jehovah?”
Moses heard and saw Him.
Exodus 33:9 Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the LORD would speak with Moses. 10When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent. 11Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Moses Intercedes
12Then Moses said to the LORD, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people!’ But You Yourself have not let me know whom You will send with me. Moreover, You have said, ‘I have known you by name, and you have also found favor in My sight.’ 13“Now therefore, I pray You, if I have found favor in Your sight, let me know Your ways that I may know You, so that I may find favor in Your sight. Consider too, that this nation is Your people.” 14And He said, “My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15Then he said to Him, “If Your presence does not go with us, do not lead us up from here. 16“For how then can it be known that I have found favor in Your sight, I and Your people? Is it not by Your going with us, so that we, I and Your people, may be distinguished from all the other people who are upon the face of the earth?”
17The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.” 18Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” 20But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” 21Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23“Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,12:31) Asana, Of course there are MANY other gods and lords mentioned in scripture. How can Jesus be the Lord God appointed over you if you can't even recognize him as your lord?
To many of those who DO recognize him as Lord, he will say, “Away from me evil doers!” What do you suppose he will say to those who don't even acknowledge his Lordship?
Asana, there is LITERALLY but ONE Omniscient Creator of all things, but there are many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth.
Jehovah couldn't even be “the God OF gods” if there were no other gods. Nor could He be “the Most High God” if there were no “lower” gods.
Jesus is not the lord god over me, it is an EXPRESSION just like when God said he would make MOSES a god unto Pharoah and when he said “Ye are all gods”. God makes it clear that HE is GOD ALONE and there is NONE other besides HIM. Is this true or false? God repeats this over and over and so does Jesus he said to the devil he could not worship him because why?Luke 4:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Jesus is clearly saying “I cannot worship you” and he certainly is not saying “I worship myself” He is saying I worship THE LORD GOD ONLY.
I worship the God of Jesus, Abraham, David, Isaac, Ishmael, Adam…etc. Jesus clearly said about God Almighty “Him thou ONLY shalt serve”
BD,
you said:Quote
The problem Kathi is that the word lord has nothing to do with being “God” a lord means someone who is n charge or an owner such as a Land lord, your problem is thinking lord has a super natural meaning and it doesn't so Jesus could be lord without being God in any sense. But God is the Lord God Meaning that The Only True God istruly the Owner of Everything and he GAVE authority over all flesh to Christ, which means he did not have it it was given to him BY GOD Jesus Christ says the one that sent him is THE ONLY TRUE GOD so I ask you is JESUS CHRIST correct?Asked and answered.
Jesus is Lord of all. The Lord that has dominion over all creation would be God. Jesus and His Father both have all dominion over all creation, BD. Also, the term 'lord' doesn't have to mean a supernatural being but neither does the term 'god.' Men were called 'gods' and men are not supernatural. Men are called 'lords' and those men were not supernatural. However, the terms Lord and God as per the heavenly beings, ARE supernatural and the ultimate Lord and God do have dominion, and power and authority over all creation.
Rev 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”To all readers:
Mike said this:Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped. I have shown this to Mike before, see for yourself if no where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped:
Matt 2:1-2
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJVMatt 2:7-8
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
KJVMatt 2:11-12
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
KJVMatt 8:1-4
When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
KJVMatt 9:18-35
18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshiped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.32 As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
KJVMatt 14:26-36
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
KJVMatt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJVMatt 20:20-28
20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshiped him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
KJVMatt 28:8-10
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
KJVMatt 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshiped him: but some doubted.
1
8 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJVMark 5:1-20
5 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshiped him,7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.17 And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
KJVMark 15:18-20
18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshiped him.
20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
KJVLuke 24:44 – 53
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshiped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.John 9:30-39
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvelous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
KJVHeb 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
KJVSo Mike, according to the translations of scripture that I have posted here, is Jesus worshiped in these scriptures? Yes or No? If you have trouble with this, I guess we can make a thread to vote on it so that you can see what others here say.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2012,14:21) BD,
you said:Quote
The problem Kathi is that the word lord has nothing to do with being “God” a lord means someone who is n charge or an owner such as a Land lord, your problem is thinking lord has a super natural meaning and it doesn't so Jesus could be lord without being God in any sense. But God is the Lord God Meaning that The Only True God istruly the Owner of Everything and he GAVE authority over all flesh to Christ, which means he did not have it it was given to him BY GOD Jesus Christ says the one that sent him is THE ONLY TRUE GOD so I ask you is JESUS CHRIST correct?Asked and answered.
Jesus is Lord of all. The Lord that has dominion over all creation would be God. Jesus and His Father both have all dominion over all creation, BD. Also, the term 'lord' doesn't have to mean a supernatural being but neither does the term 'god.' Men were called 'gods' and men are not supernatural. Men are called 'lords' and those men were not supernatural. However, the terms Lord and God as per the heavenly beings, ARE supernatural and the ultimate Lord and God do have dominion, and power and authority over all creation.
Rev 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
Guess who else was given rule over everything Kathi?Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.Really, you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between a giver and a receiver.
To worship does not mean to designate someone as God either people worshipped all sorts of things but that didn't make them gods either, the point is Jesus taught you to WORSHIP GOD ALMIGHTY but instead you worship his servant as an equal to God and that is where you are mistaken but I understand as your basic underlying premise of there being “gods” is wrong. Once you get rid of that false premise everything else falls into place.
Until you believe that Ther is ONE TRUE GOD that Jesus Worships an you follow Jesus Christ in his Worship of GOD you will be missing the mark.
BD.
I worship Jesus as the Son, not as the Father. I worship the Father as the Father and not the Son.Why do you think that Jesus always received worship but his disciples and the angels didn't?
Why do you think that Jesus was worshiped by His disciples?BD,
you said:Quote
Really, you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between a giver and a receiver.Do you think that the Father does not receive anything from the Son? Do you not think that two in a unity cannot give and the other receive? The fact that one gives certain things to the other does not in anyway discount that there is a unity who is Jehovah. This would be a natural thing for a father to do for a son…to give him all things.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 14 2012,15:27) BD,
you said:Quote
Really, you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between a giver and a receiver.Do you think that the Father does not receive anything from the Son? Do you not think that two in a unity cannot give and the other receive? The fact that one gives certain things to the other does not in anyway discount that there is a unity who is Jehovah. This would be a natural thing for a father to do for a son…to give him all things.
KathiJesus worships GOD whom you call the Father. He says he WORSHIPS HIM and in-fact he doesn't make a difference from himself and any other Jew who WORSHIPs GOD so STOP acting ignorant on this subject.
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.JESUS clearly is saying WE KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP
He clearly said before that:
John 4:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
This is you, not worshiping the Father in Spirit and truth and deciding to make the one who worships HIM equal to HIM, you are sorely misguided.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
JESUS and ALL true believers WORSHIP THE FATHER as JESUS does. JESUS WORSHIPS GOD you degrade GOD and HIS Christ.
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.Please stop this nonsense you are looking at undisputable evidence you can't read “OUR GOD and HIS Christ” and believe they are equals or in anyway equivalent. GOD OWNS Christ, Christ is HIS servant, God is not the servant of Christ. Stop misleading people don't have Jesus reject you on the day of judgement because you tried to impress him with lies he will say depart from me you worker of iniquity he will say to you that you accuse him falsely and that he never told you to worship him and that he told you to WORSHIP GOD his GOD.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2012,23:23) BD.
I worship Jesus as the Son, not as the Father. I worship the Father as the Father and not the Son.Why do you think that Jesus always received worship but his disciples and the angels didn't?
Why do you think that Jesus was worshiped by His disciples?
BD,
Did you not read what I wrote. I do not worship the Son as the Father but as the Son. I gave you nearly 15 passages in the Bible that verify that Jesus receives worship as the Son or someone was going to go to worship the Son.Why do you think that Jesus ALWAYS received worship but his disciples and the righteous angels did not?
Why do you think that Jesus was worshiped by His disciples?
Obviously, the Son CAN receive worship!!
Your problem is with scriptures, not me, BD. Also, you say that you worship the God of David. Where did David ever call God “allah?”
Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,20:53) Mike,
Regarding:1 Timothy 6
13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.I believe that “God” here is the unity.
Let's see:13 In the sight of THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND JESUS, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus………………..
Hmmm…………. So “JESUS” is someone other than “THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND JESUS”?
Kathi, if the words say “God AND Jesus”, then it is clear to most people that TWO DIFFERENT ones are mentioned – only ONE of whom is “God”.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,21:09) Did you mean to ask: “Where does scripture says that any man has heard Jehovah?” Moses heard and saw Him.
No,I meant what I said. Let me change it from a question to a statement for you:
No where in scripture is it ever said that no man has heard God.
No where in scripture is it ever said that any man has ever seen [the face of] God. Moses was allowed to see “the back” of God, which most commentators think refers to Moses seeing the “after effects”, “after glow”, or “glory” of God passing by. This is what God told Moses:
Ex 33:20
But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”Read John 1:18, Kathi. Has any human being ever seen God?
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 12 2012,21:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,12:31) How can Jesus be the Lord God appointed over you if you can't even recognize him as your lord?
Jesus is not the lord god over me…………….
I see how I should have worded that differently. I meant: Jesus is the Lord THAT God has appointed over us. I did not mean to call Jesus “the Lord God”, for that title belongs only to Jehovah.Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,21:48) To all readers
Mike said this:Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped. I have shown this to Mike before, see for yourself if no where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped:
Matt 2:1-2
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJV
Matthew 2:1, 2 NWT
After Jesus had been born in Beth′le·hem of Ju·de′a in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.”Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,21:48) Matt 2:7-8
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
KJV
Matthew 2:7, 8 NWT
Then Herod secretly summoned the astrologers and carefully ascertained from them the time of the star’s appearing; 8 and, when sending them to Beth′le·hem, he said: “Go make a careful search for the young child, and when YOU have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance.”Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,21:48) Matt 2:11-12
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
KJV
Matthew 2:11, 12 NWT
And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it. They also opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. 12 However, because they were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod, they withdrew to their country by another way.Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,21:48) Matt 8:1-4
When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
KJV
Matthew 8:1-4 NWT
After he had come down from the mountain great crowds followed him. 2 And, look! a leprous man came up and began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, if you just want to, you can make me clean.” 3 And so, stretching out [his] hand, he touched him, saying: “I want to. Be made clean.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed away. 4 Then Jesus said to him: “See that you tell no one, but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses appointed, for the purpose of a witness to them.”Shall I continue, Kathi?
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 13 2012,22:43) Kathi Jesus worships GOD whom you call the Father. He says he WORSHIPS HIM and in-fact he doesn't make a difference from himself and any other Jew who WORSHIPs GOD so STOP acting ignorant on this subject.
Bravo, Asana!(But I've been here before. She will say it was the “human nature” of Jesus who worshipped God – or something to that effect.
)Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2012,23:07) I gave you nearly 15 passages in the Bible that verify that Jesus receives worship as the Son or someone was going to go to worship the Son.
No, you gave 15 passages where the Greek word “proskuneo” was used – a word that can refer either to God-worship or to just showing reverence to any man.The word is used of a man bowing to King David – would you have us believe that the man thought King David was God and was worshipping him?
Here's one for you:
1 Chronicles 29:20 KJV
And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.Hey, maybe King David IS a part of the God Unity!
Kathi, do you see how EASILY people can “prove” nonsense with scriptures? Of couse you should know, for you are an expert. Let's see how the other translations render this same verse:NET ©
David told the entire assembly: “Praise the Lord your God!” So the entire assembly praised the Lord God of their ancestors; they bowed down and stretched out flat on the ground before the Lord and the king.NIV ©
Then David said to the whole assembly, “Praise the LORD your God.” So they all praised the LORD, the God of their fathers; they bowed low and fell prostrate before the LORD and the king.NASB ©
Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the LORD your God.” And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.NLT ©
Then David said to the whole assembly, “Give praise to the LORD your God!” And the entire assembly praised the LORD, the God of their ancestors, and they bowed low and knelt before the LORD and the king.MSG ©
David then addressed the congregation: “Bless GOD, your God!” And they did it, blessed GOD, the God of their ancestors, and worshiped reverently in the presence of GOD and the king.NRSV ©
Then David said to the whole assembly, “Bless the LORD your God.” And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their ancestors, and bowed their heads and prostrated themselves before the LORD and the king.NKJV ©
Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the LORD your God.” So all the assembly blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and prostrated themselves before the LORD and the king.So what have we learned? That the Hebrew word “shachah” and the Greek word “proskuneo” can refer EITHER to bowing before any man, OR to worshipping one as your God. The only difference is that, when it comes to Jesus, the TRINITARIAN translations CHOOSE to translate as “worship” instead of “do obeisance”.
Your “worship” scriptures “prove” nothing. In fact, I'll go you one more:
John 9:35-41 NWT
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and, on finding him, he said: “Are you putting faith in the Son of man?” 36 The [man] answered: “And who is he, sir, that I may put faith in him?” 37 Jesus said to him: “You have seen him and, besides, he that is speaking with you is that one.” 38 Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him. 39 And Jesus said: “For [this] judgment I came into this world: that those not seeing might see and those seeing might become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: “We are not blind also, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them: “If YOU were blind, YOU would have no sin. But now YOU say, ‘We see.’ YOUR sin remains.”Now, it is clear this man bowed before Jesus, but here's the thing: THE PHARISEES WHO WERE LOOKING FOR A REASON TO HAVE JESUS PUT TO DEATH were WITH THEM while this happened. Do you suppose that the Pharisees watched this man WORSHIP Jesus as if he were God, and didn't think anything of it? Or does it make more sense that this man bowed before Jesus to show his reverence – a custom that was very common?
Common sense tells us it was the latter, right? But look how the Triniatarian transltations render the same activity:
NET ©
He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.NIV ©
Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshipped him.NASB ©
And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.NLT ©
“Yes, Lord,” the man said, “I believe!” And he worshiped Jesus.MSG ©
“Master, I believe,” the man said, and worshiped him.BBE ©
And he said, Lord, I have faith. And he gave him worship.NRSV ©
He said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped him.NKJV ©
Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.There is no way this man WORSHIPPED Jesus in front of the Pharisees, while they said nothing. Yet, in their zeal to FORCE Jesus into being God, they all overlook this fact, and stick with their standard practice of translating “proskuneo” as “worship” any time it has to do with Jesus.
Their clear bias has backfired on them in this verse.
Anyway, like I said before, no one was EVER said to have worshiped Jesus in the entire scriptures – although many bowed to him to show reverence.Quote (Lightenup @ July 14 2012,16:07) Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2012,23:23) BD.
I worship Jesus as the Son, not as the Father. I worship the Father as the Father and not the Son.Why do you think that Jesus always received worship but his disciples and the angels didn't?
Why do you think that Jesus was worshiped by His disciples?
BD,
Did you not read what I wrote. I do not worship the Son as the Father but as the Son. I gave you nearly 15 passages in the Bible that verify that Jesus receives worship as the Son or someone was going to go to worship the Son.Why do you think that Jesus ALWAYS received worship but his disciples and the righteous angels did not?
Why do you think that Jesus was worshiped by His disciples?
Obviously, the Son CAN receive worship!!
Your problem is with scriptures, not me, BD. Also, you say that you worship the God of David. Where did David ever call God “allah?”
When did anyone ever call Jesus “Jesus” that is not his name in Hebrew so when a language changes it doesn't change the subject “Allah” is arabic for “THE GOD” so everytime they say THE GOD of David, THE GOD of Abraham…etc they are talking about “THE GOD” which is the ONLY GOD and Abraham never knew God by the name YHWH and that is a fact plus the Word Elohim is a word that that is like it's sister language which is Arabic, Jesus spoke Aramaich and he called God “Alaha”I never s that Jesus wasn't worshipped by some nor do the scriptures say the disciples worshipped Jesus so where did you get that from? Jesus told his disciples who to Worship and it wasn't him he told to Worship. But I had already explained that Kings were worshipped and you already know that.
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