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Quote (Lightenup @ July 10 2012,10:58) BD,
Most likely Lord of lords actually means something and not a casual metaphor. 1 Corinthians tells us that there are many gods and many lords. Have you studied history, BD? Are you aware of all the many gods that are worshiped, temples built for, idols built to represent? Jehovah is of course the one true God and all else that are being worshiped with temples built for them and have idols are not truly the God of heaven and earth. So, there are many gods who are not gods by nature and Jehovah is the God of gods, the only true God. There are also many lords and Jesus is the Lord of lords, the one Lord for us. So, if Neb or Art are called the lord of lords, the term would be relative to the time they reigned and the region they reigned over. Neb and Art are no longer alive and reigning on earth. Their title of 'Lord of lords' was just to show a type of the heavenly Lord of lords which is everlasting. Jesus is the everlasting Lord of lords, BD. Jehovah is the everlasting Lord of lords. Unless you can show me that Jesus will not be the Lord at sometime in the future through scripture, your point is moot.Jesus has many things that are said about Him that tie Him to the Jehovah in the OT. If you have a problem with seeing Jesus as the Jehovah who is the Lord of lords, then I believe that you have trouble with scripture, not me. I will put some effort into showing you the scriptures that show us this. It would be easier if the OT and the NT always said YHVH instead of translating YHVH as LORD when YHVH is what is meant.
Kathi
Who is the “Lord God” is the “Lord God” Jesus and The Father
Your view is that they are Jehovahs right? Both of them, right?
Why does God say:
Deuteronomy 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.1 Kings 8:60
That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:In these 3 examples why is there no mention of another God? A begotten God. When the words “None else besides Him” who is “him”? in the sentence?
Kathi,
This is Joab speaking to his lord, King David:
2 Samuel 24:3
But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”And this is a soldier in Joab's army speaking about Joab:
2 Samuel 11:11
And Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are dwelling in tents, and my lord Joab and the servants of my lord are encamped in the open fields. Shall I then go to my house to eat and drink, and to lie with my wife? As you live, and as your soul lives, I will not do this thing.”Doesn't that mean that King David was also a “Lord of lords”? Does it mean that he is God Most High?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,21:34) Mike,
for you to say this shows us that you do not 'get it' still. Maybe you should reread this thread carefully.Quote But for you to say that Jesus being Lord over other lords makes him the same being as his God, who is also a Lord over other lords (including our Lord Jesus), makes no more sense than me saying that Nebuchanezzar being a King over other kings makes him the same being as Jesus, who is also a King over other kings.
Let me rephrase it for you:I'm asking if Jesus and Nebuchadnezzar can both be Kings of kings without being the same being.
And if your answer is “YES”, then why can't Jehovah and Jesus both be Lords of lords without being the same being?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2012,13:12) Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,21:34) Mike,
for you to say this shows us that you do not 'get it' still. Maybe you should reread this thread carefully.Quote But for you to say that Jesus being Lord over other lords makes him the same being as his God, who is also a Lord over other lords (including our Lord Jesus), makes no more sense than me saying that Nebuchanezzar being a King over other kings makes him the same being as Jesus, who is also a King over other kings.
Let me rephrase it for you:I'm asking if Jesus and Nebuchadnezzar can both be Kings of kings without being the same being.
And if your answer is “YES”, then why can't Jehovah and Jesus both be Lords of lords without being the same being?
Mike She doesn't believe that they are the same being she believes that they are “Jehovahs” Like a family of Jehovahs, Gods. In this family of “Gods” one has more authority than the other but they have the same status, In otherwords she doesn't believe in a SINGLE BEING who is GOD and GOD alone.
She believes in single GROUP of two who are known as “God” together and separately. She believes in Co-Gods.
So to her knowing Jesus is knowing God and then Jesus will teach you about the other God who although Jesus calls him God even his own God Kathi simply believes that “The Father” would also call Jesus his God, right Kathi?
BD,
You have much better understanding of my understanding than Mike does, but I do not think that the Father would call Jesus His God. in Hebrews, the Father calls Jesus “God” but Himself “your God” when talking to His Son.Heb 1:8But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God (this is the Son), is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God (this is the Father), has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Also, Jehovah is a general name for both as a unity as well as separately. This would be like a family sur name that applies to the whole family as well as each individual member. Context would have to be considered to determine if it refers to the whole unity or to the individual person.
Like, if your last name was Smith, and I pointed out your house to someone and said that was the Smith residence. Then you walked outside and I yelled “Hey Smith” which I could yell to each of the Smith family members and it would apply.
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2012,22:08) So when you talk about God to kathi she has to think to herself “Which God are they talking about?”
Yes, like in the Heb 1:8-9 passage that I just posted above. That is why one is often designated as God and one as Lord to help in distinguishing that they are two different divine persons, even tho they both can go by both titles.Mike,
you asked:Quote I'm asking if Jesus and Nebuchadnezzar can both be Kings of kings without being the same being. And if your answer is “YES”, then why can't Jehovah and Jesus both be Lords of lords without being the same being?
Yes, they can both be King of kings without being the same being. I don't think that anyone would understand them as the same being given what is said about them in the Bible. However, Jesus and YHVH as Lord of lords can be understood as the same being because of the same very unique things that are said about them. Also, the NT verses about Jesus quote the OT verses about YHVH as applied to Jesus in the NT.
BD,
you asked:Quote
In these 3 examples why is there no mention of another God? A begotten God. When the words “None else besides Him” who is “him”? in the sentence?Remember the example that I gave you about the church being referred to with singular pronouns because the unity is considered a singular word? Same thing here. The 'him' is the unity. The church is referred to as 'she.'
BD,
you asked:Quote Who is the “Lord God” is the “Lord God” Jesus and The Father It depends on the context but sometimes context is unclear. It could be the Father, the Son or both.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2012,21:01) Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,21:32) BTW, what scripture has God 'appointing' the Son as 'Lord'………… You keep saying that He was appointed as Lord but I don't see it in scripture. Is this a manmade doctrine of yours?
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Mike,
This verse does not tell us how He was made both, just that He was made both by God. He could have simply been made Lord by the fact that all things were created by Him and for Him. The Jews did not understand that the Messiah would be both their Lord and their Messiah from what I understand. They were looking for just a man, Messiah, not a man who was also a divine being that pre-existed.Quote (Lightenup @ July 10 2012,14:44) BD,
You have much better understanding of my understanding than Mike does, but I do not think that the Father would call Jesus His God. in Hebrews, the Father calls Jesus “God” but Himself “your God” when talking to His Son.Heb 1:8But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God (this is the Son), is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God (this is the Father), has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Also, Jehovah is a general name for both as a unity as well as separately. This would be like a family sur name that applies to the whole family as well as each individual member. Context would have to be considered to determine if it refers to the whole unity or to the individual person.
Like, if your last name was Smith, and I pointed out your house to someone and said that was the Smith residence. Then you walked outside and I yelled “Hey Smith” which I could yell to each of the Smith family members and it would apply.
I know exactly what you believe and why but let me ask you, do you realize that quoted scripture from hebrews comes from this verse?Psalm 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.And it is not talking about Jesus here
Psalm 45:5-17
King James Version (KJV)
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
This was an honorary title bestowed not a literal one and this is not about Jesus if it were it wouldn't go on to say:
9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;
11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.
12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour.
13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.
14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.
15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.
17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.
[/B]
Quote (Lightenup @ July 10 2012,15:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2012,21:01) Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,21:32) BTW, what scripture has God 'appointing' the Son as 'Lord'………… You keep saying that He was appointed as Lord but I don't see it in scripture. Is this a manmade doctrine of yours?
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Mike,
This verse does not tell us how He was made both, just that He was made both by God. He could have simply been made Lord by the fact that all things were created by Him and for Him. The Jews did not understand that the Messiah would be both their Lord and their Messiah from what I understand. They were looking for just a man, Messiah, not a man who was also a divine being that pre-existed.
I think you are missing mikes point it says GOD made Jesus. It doesn't say The Father made The Son it says GOD MADE Kathi if Jesus was also God it would not say GOD MADE, do you see my point. Obviously that should tell you there is a difference and quality in nature.BD,
The verse in Acts 2 does not say that God made Him both God and Christ, it says Lord and Christ.If God begat the only begotten God before creation and gave Him the task of creation together with Himself, that right there would make Him Lord over creation, both of them would be Lord over creation because they together are the creator of creation. There does not need to be an appointment as Lord over creation since that would naturally come with being the creator of creation.
As I have stated earlier in the thread, the apostles needed to first teach their audience that God was behind this Jesus whom they crucified and not satan. The emphasis is on the word “God” in this verse.
BD,
Psalms 45 is about Jesus, the Messiah and the church, His bride.Read this to help you see:
http://gill.biblecommenter.com/psalms/45.htmQuote (Lightenup @ July 10 2012,16:37) BD,
Psalms 45 is about Jesus, the Messiah and the church, His bride.Read this to help you see:
http://gill.biblecommenter.com/psalms/45.htm
Psalms 45 was written hundreds of years before Christ was sent to us, so who do you think the writer was referring to at thetime it was written? It was the King which most likely was David.The writer in Hebrews was simply quoting a Psalms and applying it to Jesus.
Tell me you believe literally that Jesus is the Only Begotten son of God, right?
Do you believe:
Jeremiah 31:9
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.If Ephraim is the Fathers Firstborn how could Jesus be the Only Begotten?
Guess who else is God's firstborn?
Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:So which is the firstborn Israel or Ephraim and how could either be the firstborn if Jesus is the only begotten son? Maybe just maybe it is an expression.
God has sons by the tons but you pick out your favorite and declare all others just figures of speech.
David, Solomon, angels, Adam, Israel, Ephraim all of these and countless others are called sons of God and to top it off they obviously were called gods as well:
Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.How is this not literal but any such statement referring to Jesus is suddenly literal?
As I said before I understand how this can be confusing to you because you have not objectively looked at the texts. You went with the popular notion first and then you invested your time in exclusively believing it.
God has no literal sons he does not beget nor is He begotten. He creates with command and power and HE is GOD alone why should you be ashamed of Christ that he was a man and he learned what we all should learn which is total submission to God Almighty.
First you insist that Jesus is a god and then you say you believe god can be killed which would mean he is not eternal. You also believe that Jesus knew from the foundation of the world that he would be killed but somehow this god got nervous and confused after all the planning and knowing he would only be dead for a short while actually felt forsaken when as he would know he couldn't forsake himself.
A man behaves this way trying hard to overcome temptation, feeling the walls closing in on him, fearing for his life and almost giving up hope these are the feelings of a MAN andI am not ashamed of Jesus Christ a MAN approved by GOD ALMIGHTY.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2012,21:59) Mike,
you asked:Quote I'm asking if Jesus and Nebuchadnezzar can both be Kings of kings without being the same being. And if your answer is “YES”, then why can't Jehovah and Jesus both be Lords of lords without being the same being?
Yes, they can both be King of kings without being the same being. I don't think that anyone would understand them as the same being given what is said about them in the Bible. However, Jesus and YHVH as Lord of lords can be understood as the same being because of the same very unique things that are said about them. Also, the NT verses about Jesus quote the OT verses about YHVH as applied to Jesus in the NT.
Since your answer to the first question was indeed “YES”, please answer the follow up question DIRECTLY. (I've bolded it for easy reference.)Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2012,22:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2012,21:01) Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,21:32) BTW, what scripture has God 'appointing' the Son as 'Lord'………… You keep saying that He was appointed as Lord but I don't see it in scripture. Is this a manmade doctrine of yours?
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Mike,
This verse does not tell us how He was made both, just that He was made both by God.
I wasn't arguing that this verse teaches God MADE Jesus, as in CREATED him. I'm arguing that it was the God of Jesus who made (APPOINTED) him as our Lord in the first place.And isn't that what the scripture says?
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2012,22:54) I think you are missing mikes point it says GOD made Jesus. It doesn't say The Father made The Son it says GOD MADE Kathi if Jesus was also God it would not say GOD MADE, do you see my point. Obviously that should tell you there is a difference and quality in nature.
Hi Asana,That wasn't the point I was making this time, but it is an excellent point. So many times in scripture, Jesus is distinguished as someone other than, NOT JUST THE FATHER, but other than GOD.
Jesus sits at the right hand of…………………… GOD.
Jesus is the Son of………………… GOD.
Jesus is a Priest of………………….. GOD.
Jesus is the beginning of the creation by…………………… GOD.
Etc, etc, etc.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2012,23:12) There does not need to be an appointment as Lord over creation since that would naturally come with being the creator of creation.
And yet here we are, discussing a scripture that says God DID appoint Jesus as Lord. Hmmmmm……………Maybe Jesus WASN'T the creator of creation after all, huh?
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