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Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2012,13:03) ………..so Kathi needs to follow Jesus and go through him to get to know “GOD” and stop calling the door the destination.
Amen. I have made that point myself to Kathi, Keith and Jack before. Why go THROUGH Jesus to get to God if you've already reached God by reaching Jesus?
But I love the “door/destination” wording. I'm sure I will use that in later discussions.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 08 2012,06:18) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2012,13:03) ………..so Kathi needs to follow Jesus and go through him to get to know “GOD” and stop calling the door the destination.
Amen. I have made that point myself to Kathi, Keith and Jack before. Why go THROUGH Jesus to get to God if you've already reached God by reaching Jesus?But I love the “door/destination” wording. I'm sure I will use that in later discussions.
How complimentingHi guys, thanks but I have gone through the door; I stopped long enough first to get to know who Jesus was though. Try it.
You agree that in the OT, Jehovah is the Lord of lords but in the NT you seem to think that He is not or that there are two Lord of lords that are the head over all power and authority but one is not worthy of worship even though He is with us always and we do all things in His name.
And you worry about me??
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2012,21:03) Kathi, I pray that you accept the fact that for us, there is but one God Almighty, the Father. But He has a Son, Priest, Servant, Mediator, and Anointed One that He set up as King and Lord over us. That one is also very powerful and deserves much praise and honor, but he is not the Most High God who begot him and set him on high.
Then you simply need to know that:
God Almighty is the God of gods
AND
God Almighty is the Lord of lordsThat is two persons who together are one supreme authority, i.e. God, to us.
Within those two persons, there is one in position higher than the other and are Father and Son.
They created the creatures. If you bow down to and honor a creature as the head over all power and authority then you serve a creature and not the Creator Father and Son. Scriptures forbid this.
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority… If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.” Colossians 2:9-10, 3:1
The Lord of lords is seated at the right hand of the God of gods. Together they are head over every power and authority. This is a true statement.
Yet for US, there is but ONE Most High God, the Father, and one Lord, God's servant Jesus Christ, who was appointed as Lord over us by our God and his God. He is the head of man, as his God is the head of him.
You too can be part of that “US” if you are willing to put your personal wishes aside and let the words of the scriptures teach you.
Jehovah is both:
God of gods
AND
Lord of lordsEVEN if the Lord of lords serves the God of gods…Jehovah is both. (even in this thread
)Quote (Lightenup @ July 07 2012,15:03) Hi guys, thanks but I have gone through the door; I stopped long enough first to get to know who Jesus was though. Try it.
And where were you on your way to when you went THROUGH the door? Was the door your destination?Jesus is the gate, Kathi. Jehovah is the good pasture. We, the sheep, go through the righteous gate in order to partake of the good pasture. (John 10:7-10) We go THROUGH the gate, Kathi. The gate is not the destination.
It doesn't seem like ya'll know what is meant by Jesus when He says that He is the door/gate. Maybe if you read this through, you will see that Jehovah is not the pasture and that the sheep aren't going through the door to get to the Father. Think of the flock as the church and the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles forming one flock.
John 10:1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8“All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2012,14:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,13:03) Kathi, I pray that you accept the fact that for us, there is but one God Almighty, the Father. But He has a Son, Priest, Servant, Mediator, and Anointed One that He set up as King and Lord over us. That one is also very powerful and deserves much praise and honor, but he is not the Most High God who begot him and set him on high.
Hi Mike In all fairness to Kathi and so she won't claim you simply don't understand. She has clearly explained that she believes in “Gods” that work in union together as “God” She doesn't believe the Father and Son are one being, she simply believes that these two different beings are equivalents in quality and nature. So to her she is explaining a “God” family unit.
She is saying that there is “God” and additionally “The begotten God” so she believes in two Gods serving one purpose. I have to make sure she knows that I understand what she is explaining.
The point is she will not see that even by her standards an Unbegotten God would be the ONLY TRUE GOD simply because it was not Begotten, created or made, HE wasn't brought forth sent by anyone or directed to any task.
The Unbegotten God is not anointed by something greater for there is none greater but HE anoints whom HE pleases and it pleased HIM to make Jesus HIS Christ and Christ is his position to call him “God” when he is calling another being greater than himself “God” is a huge mistake so Kathi needs to follow Jesus and go through him to get to know “GOD” and stop calling the door the destination.
BD,
you said:Quote In all fairness to Kathi and so she won't claim you simply don't understand. She has clearly explained that she believes in “Gods” that work in union together as “God” She doesn't believe the Father and Son are one being, she simply believes that these two different beings are equivalents in quality and nature. So to her she is explaining a “God” family unit. You do seem to understand what I am saying much better than Mike does and you are getting it much faster. With Mike, I am going on years now. Good for you
What you call a “God” family unit is misleading though because that would make the rest of the sons who are adopted into the family to be 'God' also. That is not at all what I believe. There is only the Father and the Son who are in union together as “God” and that is all there ever will be which obviously includes their Spirit. To not include the Spirit would be like separating the blink from the eye.The mistake that I believe you make is that you believe that Jehovah is just the unbegotten God and not both the unbegotten God AND the only begotten God.
We are clearly told that Jehovah is the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
I can see the 'unbegotten God' as the God of gods and the 'only begotten God' as the Lord of lords. The NT tells us that Jesus is the Lord of lords clearly. The NT also tells us that Jesus was the Lord even at His birth from Mary.Think about it…the Jehovah that is the Lord of lords in the OT was thought of as the supreme authority over creation. This Jehovah also refers to Himself as the first and the last. This Jehovah also says that He will never leave His own. This Jehovah says that there is salvation in His name.
Then fast forward to the NT and we have Jesus identified as the Lord of lords. He is also identified as being the head over all power and authority. He says that He is the first and the last. He says that He will never leave His followers. And there is salvation in His name.
The Jews must have known about Jehovah claiming that He was the First and the Last, the Lord of lords, that He would never leave them and that there is salvation in His name. When they heard “The Lord be with you” they knew that was the God of gods and the Lord of lords being referred to.
They called Him 'Lord' over and over.How is it that in the NT, all of the sudden, 'Lord' doesn't mean 'Lord' like it did in the OT as one who is to receive worship according to you even when applied to the one who is the Lord of lords, the first and the last, the one whose name is salvation and who will never leave us?
Jehovah is not just the God of gods. He is also Lord of lords.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,00:03) Jehovah is not just the God of gods. He is also Lord of lords.
And Jesus is not just the Lord of lords, he is also the King of kings.Ezra 7:12
Artaxerxes, king of kings, To Ezra the priest, a teacher of the Law of the God of heaven: Greetings.Ezekiel 26:7
“For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.It seems that Jesus is a compound unity of the Son of God, Artaxerxes, and Nebuchadnezzar.
LOL! All I've done is apply YOUR logic to the case of Artaxerxes and Nebuchadnezzar! So perhaps it is YOU who is wasting time, and YOU who needs a break.
Mike,
You are certainly falling short of applying my logic. Jesus as the Lord of lords and king of kings in the NT pre-exists His flesh existence as a heavenly being. If Neb and Art didn't do that, then clearly the use of 'king of kings' is not anywhere near who Jesus is. But you know this, don't you or am I giving you too much credit?Oh, I've known WHAT you are trying to say for a long time. I've known what Asana wrote about for a long time, too. It's not a matter of me “not getting it”, Kathi. It's a matter of me not giving even one ounce of credence to these nonsensical claims.
Think it out, Kathi:
God Almighty is called “the God of gods and Lord of lords” in the OT, right? Well, is Jehovah a God of other gods? YES. Is Jehovah a Lord of other lords? YES.
In the NT, Jesus is called “the King of kings and the Lord of lords”, right? Well, has our God, who is also his God, appointed him as King over other kings, and Lord over other lords? YES.
In the OT, Nebuchadnezzar is called (by Jehovah) “the King of kings”, right? Well, was he the King over other kings? SURE, he had many puppet kings under his reign.
But for you to say that Jesus being Lord over other lords makes him the same being as his God, who is also a Lord over other lords (including our Lord Jesus), makes no more sense than me saying that Nebuchanezzar being a King over other kings makes him the same being as Jesus, who is also a King over other kings.
And you saying, “Jesus and Nebuchanezzar are different” doesn't make the nonsense any less nonsensical.
Now, I have shown that I know what YOU'RE saying. Do YOU understand what I'M saying? I'm saying that the overlapping “Lord of lords” title (which obviously would apply to both God AND the servant he appointed as Lord) is the weakest, most nonsensical “proof text” that any “Jesus is God” person has even shown on this site. It is such a lame claim that it doesn't deserve the time of day from me, and certainly not this lengthy explanation which took time out of my life.
So you see, it's not that I “don't get it”, it's just a matter of me not wanting to waste time answering to mundane claims.
You seem to like to waste your time Mr. 14917 posts. How much time do you spend on HN per week, Mike?
BTW, what scripture has God 'appointing' the Son as 'Lord,' also, what scripture has God 'appointing' the Son as 'the Lord of lords?' And, what scripture has God 'appointing' the Son as god/God?
You keep saying that He was appointed as Lord but I don't see it in scripture. Is this a manmade doctrine of yours?
Mike,
for you to say this shows us that you do not 'get it' still. Maybe you should reread this thread carefully.Quote But for you to say that Jesus being Lord over other lords makes him the same being as his God, who is also a Lord over other lords (including our Lord Jesus), makes no more sense than me saying that Nebuchanezzar being a King over other kings makes him the same being as Jesus, who is also a King over other kings. Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2012,06:53) Mike,
You are certainly falling short of applying my logic. Jesus as the Lord of lords and king of kings in the NT pre-exists His flesh existence as a heavenly being. If Neb and Art didn't do that, then clearly the use of 'king of kings' is not anywhere near who Jesus is. But you know this, don't you or am I giving you too much credit?
Hi Kathi Mike is right your logic is flawed people were called lord all the time and kings were most likely called lord of lords it's just a metaphor just like God of gods because there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD so to say God of gods is just an expression because GOD clearly said there are no other gods.
Genesis 23:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him,
6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.
Genesis 24:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher.
18 And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink.
I understand why you believe the way you do but you seem to have gotten expressions and poetic speech confused with reality.
BD,
Most likely Lord of lords actually means something and not a casual metaphor. 1 Corinthians tells us that there are many gods and many lords. Have you studied history, BD? Are you aware of all the many gods that are worshiped, temples built for, idols built to represent? Jehovah is of course the one true God and all else that are being worshiped with temples built for them and have idols are not truly the God of heaven and earth. So, there are many gods who are not gods by nature and Jehovah is the God of gods, the only true God. There are also many lords and Jesus is the Lord of lords, the one Lord for us. So, if Neb or Art are called the lord of lords, the term would be relative to the time they reigned and the region they reigned over. Neb and Art are no longer alive and reigning on earth. Their title of 'Lord of lords' was just to show a type of the heavenly Lord of lords which is everlasting. Jesus is the everlasting Lord of lords, BD. Jehovah is the everlasting Lord of lords. Unless you can show me that Jesus will not be the Lord at sometime in the future through scripture, your point is moot.Jesus has many things that are said about Him that tie Him to the Jehovah in the OT. If you have a problem with seeing Jesus as the Jehovah who is the Lord of lords, then I believe that you have trouble with scripture, not me. I will put some effort into showing you the scriptures that show us this. It would be easier if the OT and the NT always said YHVH instead of translating YHVH as LORD when YHVH is what is meant.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,21:32) BTW, what scripture has God 'appointing' the Son as 'Lord'………… You keep saying that He was appointed as Lord but I don't see it in scripture. Is this a manmade doctrine of yours?
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
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