Before Abraham was, I am.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,08:14)

i did not say ANGELS of the LORD. read carefully mike. i said angel of the LORD   the one who spoke to moses manoah etc.

And how do YOU know which of God's angels spoke to Moses and Manoah?  

Luke 1
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him……..

19 The angel answered, “I am Gabriel.

The angel of the Lord in this case was Gabriel.  So how do you know which angel spoke to Moses and Manoah?  God has many angels, right?

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,08:14)

GOD?? how do you understand the term GOD in the bible???

God = Mighty one/One to be revered.

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,08:14)

if i read a verse saying that christ is GOD (word for word), you will accept that you do not know what you are saying?

I don't deny that Jesus is a god, just like Deborah was also called a god, along with those to whom the word of God came.  Satan is also one of those in scripture who was called a god by Paul AND by Jehovah Himself.

But jammin, you will do well to remember that Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22)  And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7)

So although Jesus is one of the many gods Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 8:5, he is not THE MOST HIGH GOD.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,01:13)

Ed, look at the difference between the Greek you posted and the Greek jammin posted.  Do you see that in jammin's post, “theos” is there TWICE? If you will read footnote 1 in NETNotes like I suggested, you will have a better understanding as to why some Greek mss have “son”, and others have “god”.  You can also read their reasons for feeling “god” is the correct translation. You don't have to agree with them, but at least we'd be discussing this from an even playing field.

Hi Mike,

The AKJV Bible was translated from the Greek majority texts.
Which Greek texts are you referencing, and what makes you believe
they are more accurate than the majority which were being passed around?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[jammin]

you said ed and mike
but do you know that ed and mike are exactly the same?? the question here is in what sense they are the same? you and me are same. in what sense?? do you know what is the answer??? would you believe that?? ed and mike have the same form. you and me have the same form. that is the form of man. unless you want other form (an animal or insect?)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,08:23)

by the way, who is christ to you??? when did he exist?? what's the use of greek translation IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT?? many preachers use greek but yet they do not understand the context of the bible.  read the bible by it's context. do not skip and make conclusions no matter what language you use . you can use aramaic hebrew greek chinese hindu english etc. any language you want but the question is DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE READING???

A better question is: Do YOU know what “Christ” even means? It refers to one who was anointed BY God. And there are MANY “christs” listed in scripture. Those persons, who were anointed BY God, are NOT “God Himself”.

Jesus was begotten BY his God. (Psalm 2:7, John 3:16)
Jesus is a creation OF his God. (Col 1:15, Rev 3:14)
Jesus is the Son OF his God. (Matt 16:16)
Jesus is the Word/Spokesman OF his God. (John 1:1, Rev 19:13)
Jesus is the Messiah/Christ/Anointed One OF his God. (Luke 2:11, Acts 2:36)
Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb OF his God. (John 1:29, Rev 7:10)
Jesus is a prophet OF his God. (Luke 4:24, Acts 3:22)
Jesus is an angel/messenger OF his God. (John 8:28, 12:49, Galatians 4:14, Revelation 22:16)
Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN God and men. (1 Tim 2:5)
Jesus is a Priest OF God. (Heb 5:10)
Jesus is a Servant OF his God. (Acts 4:30)
Jesus obeys his God. (John 8:29, 12:49)
Jesus worships his God. (John 4:22)
Jesus says his God is greater than him, and all. (John 14:28, 10:29)
Jesus says that our God is also his own God. (John 20:17, Rev 3:12)
Jesus distinguishes himself as someone other than his God. (John 10:36, 17:3)
Jesus was sent BY his God. (Gal 4:4)
Jesus sits at the right hand OF his God. (Mark 16:19, Acts 2:33)
Jesus rules in the power, authority, and name OF his God. (Micah 5:4, Matt 28:18)
Jesus will hand the reign of the Kingdom back to his own God. (1 Cor 15:24, 28)

Jammin, it is common sense to those of us without man-made doctrines to fulfill, that someone who is OF God, cannot possibly BE the God he is OF.

[jammin]

read again the verse carefully my friend mike
judges 13
New Living Translation (NLT)
21 The angel did not appear again to Manoah and his wife. Manoah finally realized it was the angel of the Lord, 22 and he said to his wife, “We will certainly die, for we have seen God!”

if the angel of the LORD is not GOD , why did manoah said in verse 22 that they saw GOD. read the context again and again. manoah is not lying or joking when he said that they saw GOD.
also read the story of moses again and again.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,08:29)

he is equal with GOD. dont you see and understand the verse? if you dont agree that christ is equal with GOD then you are preaching a different christ

Think it out, Jammin.

Even IF Jesus were “equal WITH God”, those words in themselves would make it clear Jesus was NOT God.  I cannot possibly be EQUAL TO you, and BE you at the same time.  It is impossible.

But, if you think Jesus was equal to God, then read this:
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Surely you can see that the One with the power to place all things at the feet of Jesus has more power than the one under whom those things were placed?

If Jesus was equal to God, then why does he rule in the strength and name OF his own God? (Micah 5:2-4)

[jammin]

you said
I don't deny that Jesus is a god…
where can you read in the bible that he is a god???
kindly read a verse mike…

he is not a god. BUT GOD!
a god is different to GOD

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2011,08:39)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,01:13) Ed, look at the difference between the Greek you posted and the Greek jammin posted.  Do you see that in jammin's post, “theos” is there TWICE? If you will read footnote 1 in NETNotes like I suggested, you will have a better understanding as to why some Greek mss have “son”, and others have “god”.  You can also read their reasons for feeling “god” is the correct translation. You don't have to agree with them, but at least we'd be discussing this from an even playing field. Hi Mike, The AKJV Bible was translated from the Greek majority texts. Which Greek texts are you referencing, and what makes you believe they are more accurate than the majority which were being passed around? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Let me know when you're done reading the first footnote in the NETBible link I provided.

You do realize that even older and better mss have been found since the days the KJV was translated, right?

[jammin]

let's talk about first phil 2:6 beofre we go to 1cor 15:27

you dont understand the verse well. paul is saying that christ is equal with GOD.
Philippians 2:6

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

6who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,

where can you find in phil 2:6 that paul is saying that christ is not equal with GOD??? do you have any translation mike

[jammin]

yes you and me are equal. in what sense??? you and me hAVE THE FORM OF MAN. i am not saying that you are me. hwat i am saying is we have the same nature. unless you have the nature of animal then we are not really equal

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,08:54)

you said I don't deny that Jesus is a god… where can you read in the bible that he is a god??? kindly read a verse mike…

John 1
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

Both of these distinguish Jesus as “a god”, but not THE God.

Jammin, I'm just starting a discussion with another member here in the “Charle's Jesus is God Proof Texts” thread.  Perhaps you will join in and learn along with us.

In the mean time, would you acknowledge for me that Jehovah is “God Most High”, and Jesus is the SON OF God Most High?

[jammin]

hahaha you are using john 1:1
and said a god
John 1
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

but the letter a is just an additional to the verse. hahahah

let me give A LOT OF TRANSLATION
John 1:1

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1

American Standard Version (ASV)

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Amplified Bible (AMP)

John 1
1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
John 1:1

Common English Bible (CEB)

John 1
Story of the Word
1 In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God
and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

John 1
The Word of Life
1In the beginning was the one

who is called the Word.

The Word was with God

and was truly God.
John 1:1

Darby Translation (DARBY)

John 1

1In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

where did you find the term a god in john 1:1?

you are giving a biased translation hahahahaha. only one translation and i think it is a NWT. a horrible translation

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,08:49)

if the angel of the LORD is not GOD , why did manoah said in verse 22 that they saw GOD

I've already explained to you that in the Bible, people often referred to the vice regent OF God as “God”.

Jammin, did Moses speak to GOD in the burning bush, or an angel OF God? What does scripture bear out? (Acts 7:30)

Jammin, there are certain people who join this site, with whom I can have a sensible, adult, scriptural discussion.

But when someone is willing to nonsensically insist that an angel/messenger OF God is God Himself, then how much good can I really do? If you are willing to state that God is His own angel, then I am no longer discussing scriptures with a sensible person.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,09:08)

you are giving a biased translation hahahahaha. only one translation and i think it is a NWT. a horrible translation

I've already invited you to the “Charles” thread. I hope you come and learn.

There is also a thread called “Blatant Corruption in the NWT” on this site. I am still waiting for someone to post the first verse in that thread that the NWT translators got wrong.

Perhaps you will be the first?

[jammin]

to answer your question about who appeared to moses in acts 7:30 (angel of the LORD which is GOD himself)
Exodus 3:3-6

Darby Translation (DARBY)

3And Moses said, Let me now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn-bush is not burnt.

4And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here am I.

5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: loose thy sandals from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6And he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,08:58)

let's talk about first phil 2:6 beofre we go to 1cor 15:27 you dont understand the verse well. paul is saying that christ is equal with GOD. Philippians 2:6 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) 6who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, where can you find in phil 2:6 that paul is saying that christ is not equal with GOD??? do you have any translation mike

New International Version (©1984)
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

English Standard Version (©2001)
did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God:

American Standard Version
counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

World English Bible
didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

New World Translation
gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

Jammin, this is simple common sense. If Jesus was in the form OF God, then he is not God Himself. You yourself said:
“you and me hAVE THE FORM OF MAN. i am not saying that you are me.”

If I have the form OF jammin, then you are correct that I can't BE jammin. If Jesus has the form OF God, then it is also correct that Jesus can't BE God.

So you seem to be able to make a logical deduction when it comes to you and me. Why are you having so much trouble with the same deduction in the case of Jesus and God?

Also, can I be EQUAL TO you and BE you at the same time? YES or NO?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,01:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2011,08:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,01:13) Ed, look at the difference between the Greek you posted and the Greek jammin posted.  Do you see that in jammin's post, “theos” is there TWICE? If you will read footnote 1 in NETNotes like I suggested, you will have a better understanding as to why some Greek mss have “son”, and others have “god”.  You can also read their reasons for feeling “god” is the correct translation. You don't have to agree with them, but at least we'd be discussing this from an even playing field. Hi Mike, The AKJV Bible was translated from the Greek majority texts. Which Greek texts are you referencing, and what makes you believe they are more accurate than the majority which were being passed around? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Let me know when you're done reading the first footnote in the NETBible link I provided. You do realize that even older and better mss have been found since the days the KJV was translated, right?

Hi Mike,

Where were they found?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[jammin]

i said we are equal. did you read my post? we are equal bec we have the same form. form of man! unless you are an animal.

very simple english you cant understand.

[jammin]

dont you have the form of man mike??? just a question??? what form do you have???

[jammin]

if you accept that you have the form of man then you will accept christ and GOD have the same form too. form of GOD
they are equal. that's why paul said
Philippians 2:6-8

New International Version (NIV)

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
Philippians 2:6-8

The Message (MSG)

5-8Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what.

now why did paul say did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

this phil 2:6-9 talks about christ/s humility
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

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