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That's what I've been trying to tell YOU, Nick. The scripture says that Jesus said those words. How then do you take it upon yourself to change that? You say you were led to this understanding by spirit? What scripture did you test that spirit against? What scripture tells you that God said those words through Jesus?
Let's look at this with some context.
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
First thing I see is the words, “Jesus said”.
So bear in mind that if Jesus was led by God, he and we too still have the ability to speak the truth about ourselves. Being led or inspired is not the same as automatic writing or automatic talking.The second thing I see is that Jesus is having a discussion with the Jews about himself and who he is. Jesus even speaks of the Father. If it was the Father speaking, why would he say “it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God”. Such a sentence shows who is speaking by reason of referring to his Father. Otherwise we have to assume that the Father is talking about his Father which is ridiculous.
So when Jesus says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am”, why should we suddenly think that it was the Father saying this, when the Father said none of the previous words. Such a change is speculative at best and has no evidence to support it.
If I am inspired to speak or teach, if I am led by the Spirit, and if I am one with God, none of that means that I am a hollowed out human filled with God. Rather, it simply means that I am still me, but my spirit is one with God's spirit and I receive his words into my spirit and act accordingly through to my soul and body.
t8,
I perceive that you have never had God speak through you. I can assure you that it is still your voice, your voice box, your mouth moving, it sounds just like you. Yet it is God and what you say is true. If God tells you to do something and you do it, He will back it up.Before Abraham was, the Spirit of God was, Gods own Word, LOGOS, was.
Yes, Jesus could speak on His own and God did speak through Jesus.
Jesus also said, destroy this temple and I will raise it up. It was Jesus speaking God's Words. For who raised Him up, it was God.
also if you use your spiritual insight, He tells you who He is in v58.
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
EXODUS 3:14 ………….
Tell the children of Israel that I AM has sent me to you.God Bless
MarlinQuote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 13 2012,23:13) 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
EXODUS 3:14 ………….
Tell the children of Israel that I AM has sent me to you.
Marlin,Were you aware that every time Jehovah claimed to BE Jehovah in the OT, the Hebrew words were “aniy yhwh”, meaing “I am I AM”. If 8:58 was supposed to be Jesus claiming to be Jehovah, or even Jehovah speaking through Jesus, then why just “I am”? Why not “I am I AM”, like in the OT?
John 14:9
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?The bolded words above are the Greek words “ego eimi”, just like in John 8:58. Yet virtually every English translation renders “ego eimi” in 14:9 as “I have been”, because they know that is the meaning of Jesus' statement, and they are aware of certain idioms associated with translating Greek into English.
This is what the Greek expert and professor Jason BeDuhn says about it in his book Truth in Translation:
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.
Marlin, they all translate “ego eimi” as “I have been” in 14:9, because that is how it is understandable to those of us who speak English. The only reason the don't do the same in 8:58 is because they try to trick you into believing Jesus was making a claim of being God. But like I said before, the words “I am” wouldn't do that anyway – Jesus would have had to say “I am I AM”. But that is not what he said.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2012,23:12) Hi T8,
Did Yahshua speak the words given him by God?
Nick,Hebrews 1:1-2 makes is clear that God spoke through many prophets, one of whom was Jesus. We're not arguing that He did.
But you can bet that if the first word of the sentence was “Father”, then it was Jesus speaking to his Father, and not the Father speaking to Himself.
Nick,
Please explain your last post to me, and tell me how it addresses the point I made in my previous post.
MikeB,
Quote Were you aware that every time Jehovah claimed to BE Jehovah in the OT, the Hebrew words were “aniy yhwh”, meaing “I am I AM”. If 8:58 was supposed to be Jesus claiming to be Jehovah, or even Jehovah speaking through Jesus, then why just “I am”? Why not “I am I AM”, like in the OT? The quote that I used God said “I AM has sent me to you”.
So He told Moses to say 'I Am”, did He not. My bible says the word is 'hayah' (to be).Common sense tells me that Jesus the man was not before Abraham. Being that He was only about 30 years old. Yet you want to believe it was His spirit speaking, WOW, what a stretch.
1. If you are going to try to use the scriptures to prove a point, you should tell the whole truth.
2. God doesn't need us to correct His Word. He needs us to believe it and conform to it.
3. Is God so week that He can not protect His own Word. I don't think so.
4. I have read scriptures in many translations and there has only been a couple of times that I thought it didn't say the same thing. Have you ever noticed with you, it is most every scripture you disagree with. Is that a JW or NWT teaching?
God Bless
MarlinQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2012,16:12) Hi T8,
Did Yahshua speak the words given him by God?
Yes and as a man he also would have said things like “pass the bread and water please”.The idea that he was a hollowed out shell and God was the only thing inside is absurd. Jesus even said, “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour”.
The above shows that Jesus is speaking because it is not God who's soul is troubled and it is not God who is praying to the Father.
Did not Jesus even say, “not my will but your will”.
If that was God speaking, then it means the opposite which is “not God's will but Jesus will”.
I think this makes it clear that Jesus spoke too, but the difference was, he never exercised his own will against the will of God. On the contrary, he always aligned his will to God's will and the result of that was he never taught or said anything outside of God's truth and what God wanted revealed. He also never did anything contrary to what God would have him do.
Hi Marlin,
As I expected, the factual information I posted for you fell on deaf ears. Do you think I made that stuff up? Check the scriptures. Check the lexicons.
Anyway, I hope Nick reads your post, because it is him, not me, who believes the spirit was speaking through Jesus in 8:58.
I hope Nick pays particular attention to point #2.
t8, I agree.
I believe Jesus was truly a MAN and He was truly God. Just what the scriptures teach. Not another god, but GOD. He wasn't just a shell that God lived in. He was a MAN without sin that let God use Him to save US.Which is just exactly what Jesus is looking for in us. Not us doing, but Him in us doing.
MikeB, It amazes me that YOU want Nick to read point 2. It is you that always wants to correct God's Word. I haven't noticed that in Nick.
Just to be clear, I believe that God was speaking through Jesus in 8:58.
Because I believe the Word,(LOGOS) is God's own Word. God Bless
MarlinHi T8,
Yes he did speak for himself as when he said he was thirsty.
But the words from God in him burned themselves into the minds of his apostles and they wrote them down.Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 14 2012,17:38) Just to be clear, I believe that God was speaking through Jesus in 8:58.
Of course you do, Marlin. But that still leaves you with two problems:1. Why would God tell the Pharisees that HE existed before Abraham? Didn't they already know this?
2. If it was GOD speaking through JESUS, then there are TWO mentioned, only ONE of whom was GOD.
Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 14 2012,16:13) also if you use your spiritual insight, He tells you who He is in v58.
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
EXODUS 3:14 ………….
Tell the children of Israel that I AM has sent me to you.
Marlin, if I said to you, “are you Marlin?” you could well answer with, “I am”.Remember that famous saying, “I think therefore I am”. This was uttered by a man who questioned everything. He even wondered at one stage if he himself existed. He concluded with the realisation that if he doubted his own existence, then that proved the existence of a doubter, to which he said, “I think therefore I am”.
Now was this man or yourself in the above example saying that they were YHWH? Of course not. I am has a common use today as it did back then.
To prove what I am saying, you will find that Jesus said, “I am the bread from heaven”. Yet the Jews only questioned the from heaven part. In short, had the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God because he said the common words, “I am”, then they could have convicted him of treason. Yet why were false witnessed used in his trial, surely they could have said that he claimed to be God and that would have been that. But they never tried him on that because he never claimed to be God and never said he was God, so they looked to falsely accuse him.
For further proof of “I am” being common words today and back in the days of Jesus and even before that. You only need to see that the Angel Gabriel uttered these same words as did the the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus. Even Peter said , I am, (ego eimi), so the mere use of “I am” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.
I bet in your everyday language your probably utter these words regular, yet how many people do you know accused you of blasphemy? My guess is a round zero.
Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 14 2012,17:38) MikeB, It amazes me that YOU want Nick to read point 2. It is you that always wants to correct God's Word.
So then all those hundreds of scholars, the VAST majority of whom are people like you, who think Jesus IS the God he is the Son of, have “corrected God's word” by rendering “ego eimi” in John 14:9 as “I have been”?
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