Before Abraham was, I am.

[Devolution]

Hello all,

Would like to discuss this famous statement that trinity believers quote so often as one of the bedrocks to their belief of Jesus being the father Himself.

John 8:56-58

56 > Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and WAS glad.

57 > Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 > Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.

Since I Am is the Fathers title, this, they say, is absolute proof of Christ's true identity. I couldn't disagree more. Why?
Well Jesus told us plainly Himself in many many quotes…here are just a few…

John 12:49
> For I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

So here we see Jesus openly declaring that the word(s) He speaks, are given to Him to speak. And who is giving these words to Christ to speak? The Father is. So when Jesus speaks, who is really speaking? The Father of course…

We continue…

John 12:50
> And I know that His commandment is life everlasting, whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Again Jesus is revealing to us the source of His word. Notice the broad statement here > WHATSOEVER I SPEAK THEREFORE…EVEN AS THE FATHER SAID UNTO ME, SO I SPEAK.

Whatsoever I speak….big claim…huge…Whatsoever means everything I speak…

John 14:10
> Believest thou not that i am in the Father, and the Father in Me, the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself, but the Father which dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.

Again Jesus is identifying the source for His words…NOT His own teachings, but His Fathers.
Notice that the Father dwells in Him…the Father's Word that is…and what is given to all believers to dwell in us also? That same Word…the Holy Spirit…an essence of God Himself to graft onto our souls…Romans explains…

Romans 8:11
> But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

James is clearer,

James 1:21> …..and receive with meekness, the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jeremiah gives us a clue also…

Jeremiah 2:13
> For My people have committed two evils, they have forsaken Me the fountain of living waters….

The Fountain is the source (the Father)…the living waters (Spirit/truth) flows out Of that Fountain…and is given to whosoever He accepts to graft that Spirit into.

So we too get that same Spirit/living water…just not in full measure as Christ did as the Word reveals in John…

John 3:34 > For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God; for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him.

So Jesus is the only man stated categorically in scripture who gets the Spirit without measure…that means full bottle. Brimming and overflowing full access and indwelling Spirit to become one with…to have that grafting of that Spirit onto His own soul completed at resurrection…born again a new creature…the Word of God.

We continue..

John 14:24
> He that loveth Me no keepeth not My sayings, and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the father's which sent Me.

We can't get much clearer than this.
Jesus' word is not His own…
But His Father's.
If Jesus were the father, this would be a contradiction.

So again, Before Abraham was I am…
It was the Father speaking through His Son.
Jesus was not claiming to be Him, but was speaking for Him.

Thank you and God bless.

[/U]

[terraricca]

hi

welcome to the site,

Quote

to have that grafting of that Spirit onto His own soul completed at resurrection…born again a new creature…the Word of God.

could elaborate on this ? it seems you say that Christ is born again ? is a new creature ? and become THE WORD OF GOD ?and also that Christ has been grafted ?

this I would like to see scriptures on
good presentation

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

When Jesus said “I am”, what he said was harmless and common words that others also uttered.
The only problem the Pharisees had was that Jesus was saying he was before their so-called father Abraham. It was this that offended them. I am simply means I exist. Even in English we have that famous quote: “I think therefore I am”. Do we equate that with claiming to be God? Of course not. And neither did they.

Further, “I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52.

[Devolution]

Hi Pierre,
thank you for your welcome, and your complement.

First, before i use scripture to answer, i ask for patience. For this answer is more of an understanding, like reading a novel that doesn't spell out its meaning, but the meaning nevertheless is conveyed.This understanding i will give first in my own words before i get to scripture, for it is not spelled out bluntly in the bible, just like the novel explanation, of which you have every right to question…

You have your word, i have mine, with our word we can do good, or do bad, we can compliment or we can insult. Our word has power.
God has His word too. However, unlike our word, God's word can physically act and obey Him. And it is with this indwelling word of His, that He created all things.
And for this to be true, this means that what comes out of Gods mouth, this can become anything he so desires…planets, water, angels, atoms etc etc…

Psalm 33:6 > By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

So when the Father spoke, what came out of His mouth acted, and obeyed His will, and created all things. It is His power. It is this word that comes out from within Him, this word that can become anything, that created all things. And since it can become anything, this word that created all things was kept aside in bodily form (spiritual) to stand beside the Father in the beginning (of creation). It is this word that we find in the Old Testament with God. So it must be in bodily form…but is it really Jesus “yet”….”yet” the only word i can use for now…please be patient…

We see in Psalms what manner of “tool” God used to create…”The breath of His mouth”.
And for this to be so, it can only mean that what comes out of His mouth is actually living…living spirit able to obey the Father's will. His “tool” so to speak. For to make such intricate creations, one must be able to calculate and plan. This takes intelligence. And God spoke…so this is the only “tool” God used, His indwelling word.

Big claim i understand. But scriptures hint at such things. Here are some examples…

Hebrews 11:3 >Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

What are things made out of? Atoms etc. These things that are seen (planets, water, earth etc), that are made of things that appear (atoms etc) as science has us believe are the reason for all things, God is telling us that No, the things which make these things seen are actually made by something else…His indwelling word. “By the breath of His mouth”…Spirit.

This being the case, then this spoken word is what created all things.
Yet we are also told that Jesus created all things…a contradiction? No…

We must go to the workings of the Spirit in men to get an understanding of the processes Jesus went through Himself to get to the bottom of this Word puzzle….

The word…Jesus or Gods breath?…BOTH.

Consider Melchizedek…No Father, no Mother, no beginning, no end…sound familiar? Only God has all these attributes.
This was Gods spoken word translated into flesh. And since that word came out of God, it is God. Here we can see that Gods word can take bodily form, and separate to become an individual if so commanded. Why is Melchizedek not God the Father in the Flesh? Because He praised the Father also.

And as the example in scripture of how God created all things, and what all things consist of..the word/spirit…then it is obvious that His word(s) can become millions of individual “things”…people included. For all things are made by and consist of that word. Another description is the Holy Spirit.
And since millions of Christians have this Holy Spirit within them, this also backs this claim as James mentioned….the engrafted word, which correlates with the parable of God grafting us into the olive tree.

To graft is to join with something to become something other than what it was…to become something new.

And we are told in Romans that IF we have that same Spirit IN us that Christ ALSO had, which was FROM the father, then it is that SAME Spirit God will use to raise us. And also Corinthians tells us that when we are resurrected, we will be CHANGED into something NEW. Something eternal…and like other scripture that tells us that we will become like the angels…that is Spirit..

So if as James tells us, that that word grafts inside of us, and by logic, knowing that that Spirit is Spiritual…then it must needs graft onto something else that is spirit…and what do we have that is spiritual within us already? ….our souls…

One last example of this word being spirit…John 6:63 > It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth (raises…rises) the flesh profits nothing (turns to dust) the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, THEY are SPIRIT, and THEY are LIFE.

SO the word is spirit. It has two meanings…people hear it said the word of God and all they can see is Jesus…but here we start to see its other meaning..Gods indwelling Holy Spirit…His own personal Word that is actually capable of becoming alive as one person or billions of people/spirits or anything else He so desires..

SO now that the word is semi explained, i can start to use scripture to show how Jesus “became” that kept aside word which created all things, and how Jesus was born again, and how Jesus had that same spirit grafted into Him which scripture will back with discernment of the reader…

SORRY for the big reply…but it had to be so…will get to work on the smaller reply as requested…

[mikeboll64]

Welcome Devolution,

Any time Jehovah said “I am Jehovah” in the OT, the Hebrew words are “aniy yhwh”.  The “yhwh” is the name of our God, and the “aniy” means “I am”.  So Jehovah actually said “I am I AM”.  Jesus never said “I am I AM”.  

Uttering the most common pronoun/verb combination in any language could only be seen as a claim to be God Almighty in the warped minds of the Trinitarians.

The scriptures you posted make it clear that Jesus is not the Father he is the Son of.

Good job.

[Lightenup]

Welcome Devolution,

you said:

Quote

Would like to discuss this famous statement that trinity believers quote so often as one of the bedrocks to their belief of Jesus being the father Himself.

Trinitarians do not believe that the second person is the first person of the trinity. That would be Modalism.

Kathi

[Devolution]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 10 2011,07:30)

Welcome Devolution, Any time Jehovah said “I am Jehovah” in the OT, the Hebrew words are “aniy yhwh”.  The “yhwh” is the name of our God, and the “aniy” means “I am”.  So Jehovah actually said “I am I AM”.  Jesus never said “I am I AM”.   Uttering the most common pronoun/verb combination in any language could only be seen as a claim to be God Almighty in the warped minds of the Trinitarians. The scriptures you posted make it clear that Jesus is not the Father he is the Son of. Good job.

Hi mikeboll64,
Thank you, it is so refreshing to find a web site that does not ban a person for speaking out against trinity…i think i have found my new home…

glad to be here…

[Devolution]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,22:36)

hi welcome to the site, Quote to have that grafting of that Spirit onto His own soul completed at resurrection…born again a new creature…the Word of God. could elaborate on this ? it seems you say that Christ is born again ? is a new creature ? and become THE WORD OF GOD ?and also that Christ has been grafted ? this I would like to see scriptures on good presentation Pierre

Hi Pierre…

Jesus is the Word of God.

BUT:

Jesus was of the seed of David (2 tim 2:8), & the man Jesus was very human like us in all ways except was without sin (Hebrews 2:14).

YET David and his seed are not the Word of God (Spiritual), but are mortal?

YET Jesus is of that seed (Romans 1:3) ?

Even though He IS that SEED (Galatioans 3:16)?

YET the seed is the word of God (Luke 8:11)?

Which Word Jesus said was NOT His Word (John 14:24)?

BUT it is now stated that He is indeed that Word (Rev 19:13)?

So Jesus said His Word was not His own…so, when He stated this declaration, at that time, it can only mean He was not that Word at that time, for He said it was not His Word.

But we see that He is NOW that Word in Revelation?

So He was not that Word, but is now that Word. That can only mean one thing..He became that Word.

So IF Jesus is born again & become a new creature & Become the Word of God which was grafted into HIm…then the process must be described somewhere in scripture? And as Romans testifies, we too must go through a process with that Spirit which was IN Christ so as to be raised just as Christ was raised into Spiritual creatures like the angels (Matthew 22:30).

The Process:

>We are human & Abraham's seed IF we believe & obey God (Galatians 3:29)

Christ was Abraham's seed too (Hebrews 2:16) But Abraham is not that Word though !

>Jesus was chosen and a servant (Matt 12:18).

We were chosen also (John 15:16) and servants (Luke 12:37)

>Jesus grew in wisdom as He “aged spiritually” and in favor with God (Luke 2:40)

We grow in wisdom through the Spirit put within us (John 14:17-19) and in favor with God (1 Thess 4:1)

>The Spirit within Jesus was from God (The word i speak is Spirit and truth John 6:63) The Word is NOT mine etc (John 14:10).

The Holy Spirit is given/added to us, and is not ours initially (naturally/at birth) Just as Jesus stated about Himself having the Word within Him which was not His (Except He did receive His Word at conception, FOR: the Word became flesh…NOT God Himself becoming flesh, but His Word became flesh) And that Word is…Spirit (John 6:63).

>The Word grafts into us (James 1:21) When something is grafted it GROWS.

Jesus GREW in wisdom (Luke 2:40)

We are told to FEED that given Spirit (1 Peter 5:2) Feed = teach, nourish the Spirit with truth so “it” may grow.

Jesus meditated (thought about/worked out/listened/fed Himself) on all of Gods precepts/laws/ways. (Psalm 119:78)

>The Word is Spirit, the Word is truth (John 6:63) The Spirit of Truth/ Holy Spirit.

BUT Jesus was mortal (died) then changed and became eternal (Rev 1:18) (Born Again)

>The creature…(Coloss 1:15) Creatures are created…Jesus was the firstborn (1st resurrected) out of all CREATURES…which means He WAS a creature/creation. But is now eternal and called God by His God and all are told to worship Him by command of His God who calls His Son God also.

And since that Word/Spirit came from God, from within God, and put into Jesus, then what is IN Jesus is what came from within God, so must be IN God also (the source) and means then that God is literally also IN Jesus, since that Spirit came from from God to start with,Just like He is IN Us too (John 17:21-23).

Now since Jesus became one with that Word, then this means He was always that Word all along NOW. For He became one with that Word.

If you became one with Moses, then all Moses ever did, you did too…for you both became one. And are now a new creature. And all you ever did, Moses now did too.

This is how Jesus is that Word now, of which He said was NOT His Word, but now IS His Word, and always was…simply because They became ONE. A forward & reverse reaching unified loop.

Hope this short reply answers your questions Pierre?

[Devolution]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2011,08:18)

Welcome Devolution, you said: Quote Would like to discuss this famous statement that trinity believers quote so often as one of the bedrocks to their belief of Jesus being the father Himself. Trinitarians do not believe that the second person is the first person of the trinity.  That would be Modalism. Kathi

Hi Kathy,
I apologize for the oversight, there are different trinity doctrines/interpretations and i should have been more mindful with my statement.

Apologies to you if i offended.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Devolution @ Dec. 09 2011,17:38)

Hi mikeboll64, Thank you, it is so refreshing to find a web site that does not ban a person for speaking out against trinity…i think i have found my new home… glad to be here…

When the owner of this site did some re-tooling, some of us could not log on for over a week. During that time, I joined a different site, and was banned forever after two days for “DENYING THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST”.

Everyone is welcome to discuss scripture here…………EVEN Trinitarians, and others who think Jesus is either the Father he is the Son of, or the God he is the Son of.

I like it that way, because even warped iron sharpens iron.

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Quote

EVEN Trinitarians, and others who think Jesus is either the Father he is the Son of, or the God he is the Son of.

Trinitarians do not believe that.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Devolution @ Dec. 09 2011,20:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2011,08:18) Welcome Devolution, you said: Quote Would like to discuss this famous statement that trinity believers quote so often as one of the bedrocks to their belief of Jesus being the father Himself. Trinitarians do not believe that the second person is the first person of the trinity.  That would be Modalism. Kathi Hi Kathy, I apologize for the oversight, there are different trinity doctrines/interpretations and i should have been more mindful with my statement. Apologies to you if i offended.

Devolution,
No problem. I am not aware of any trinitarian that would believe what you stated they believe. You refer to what you said as the 'bedrock' to their belief. Not so. Do you actually think that some trinitarians believe that?

Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 09 2011,21:16)

Mike, Quote EVEN Trinitarians, and others who think Jesus is either the Father he is the Son of, or the God he is the Son of. Trinitarians do not believe that. Kathi

Kathi,

If Trinitarians believe Jesus is God Most High, then they believe that Jesus is the God he is the Son of.

What are you saying they don't believe?

[Devolution]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2011,14:20)

Quote (Devolution @ Dec. 09 2011,20:13) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2011,08:18) Welcome Devolution, you said: Quote Would like to discuss this famous statement that trinity believers quote so often as one of the bedrocks to their belief of Jesus being the father Himself. Trinitarians do not believe that the second person is the first person of the trinity.  That would be Modalism. Kathi Hi Kathy, I apologize for the oversight, there are different trinity doctrines/interpretations and i should have been more mindful with my statement. Apologies to you if i offended. Devolution, No problem.  I am not aware of any trinitarian that would believe what you stated they believe.  You refer to what you said as the 'bedrock' to their belief.  Not so.  Do you actually think that some trinitarians believe that? Kathi

Hi Kathy,

I just came from a site called Christian Chat…trust me, they believe that fully.
I've been called a heretic by them for saying Jesus was not calling Himself I Am, but it was the Father speaking through Him.

They definitely believe that…lots of them….very nasty types on that site.

Their latest psy-op trick is to accuse anyone who denies that the Son is the Father, is denying Christs divinity, and being banned follows quickly.

So yes, i do know what i am talking about on that one. Sad but true.

[jammin]

who is this GOD that spoke to the prophets long ago
Hebrews 1:1-2

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Hebrews 1
God’s Final Word in His Son
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 [a]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [c]world.

[Ed J]

Hi Devolution and Jammin,

Welcome.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

jammin

welcome to the site ,

his name his Jehovah

Pierre

[Devolution]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 11 2011,13:26)

Hi Devolution and Jammin, Welcome. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

Thank you for the welcome…
I feel at home already !!

God bless.

[Devolution]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 11 2011,12:28)

who is this GOD that spoke to the prophets long ago Hebrews 1:1-2 New American Standard Bible (NASB) Hebrews 1 God’s Final Word in His Son 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 [a]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [c]world.

Hi Jammin,

It was the Father.
He used to speak through the prophets…mortal men.
Now He speaks through His Son…The Word of God.

I am not sure where your question is going here…

But the Word of God speaks for His Father now…
That doesn't make Jesus the Father…
Just as it didn't make the prophets the Father…
But makes Jesus His Mediator…
Hence…Word of God speaking on His Father's behalf (Word, being one out of it's two meanings)

Thanks for the question.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Devolution @ Dec. 10 2011,15:53)

Hi Kathy, I just came from a site called Christian Chat…trust me, they believe that fully. They definitely believe that…lots of them….very nasty types on that site. Their latest psy-op trick is to accuse anyone who denies that the Son is the Father, is denying Christs divinity, and being banned follows quickly. So yes, i do know what i am talking about on that one. Sad but true.

'Tis true, Kathi.  That is the same site from which I was banned after two short days, for “DENYING THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST!”.  

They don't want people like us in their mix, causing the others to discuss what the actual scriptures have to say on the matter.  

And they don't distinguish between Trinitarianism, Oneness, or Modalism.  As long as one has the bottom line of “Jesus is God Almighty Himself”, they are a “Trinitarian”, and have the right to post there.

Hey, that would be a good site for you!    I bet that they wouldn't even care that you believe we have TWO Almighty Gods, as long as you're supporting the assertion that Jesus is one of them.  They'll just label you as a “fellow Trinitarian”, and welcome you with open arms – because the end result would be the same in their eyes.  

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