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Nick………God is the one who tests us for our own good, and uses His powers to cause it and bring it about. Heb 12: 6….> For whom the LORD loves he chastens and scourges every son he receives. v 7..> If you endure chastening, God (deals with you) as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? V 8…> But if ye be without chastisement, whereof (ALL) are partakers, then are ye (BASTARDS), and (NOT) Sons. Did Jesus pray for protection from His hard testing? Jesus (LEARNED) obedience by the things He suffered and even the whole creation is suffering and waiting for deliverance as we also are.
If you hadn't bought into the devils and demon doctrines of the apostatized church you could have understood this.
Your time would be better spent trying to understand the Posts rather then counteracting everyone. You have no Idea of what GOD allows or doesn't allow. IMO
peace and love……………..gene
Nick…………Don't blame Jesus for you lack of understanding. That your indoctrination that causing you not to see, Has nothing to do with Jesus' word at all. Just how you misperceive them thats all.
Nick………. And what are we to do with your vain ideas Nick, Your words mark you own sufferings, i would be careful how i cast them on others if i were you. You will eat from your own plate after all it your (OWN) food you are putting on it. You may be more an enemy of Christ then you even begin to realize. IMO
peace and love…………………………gene
G,
You show from the words of Jesus that God is one and not a trinity.
But the words of Jesus are no use to you when it comes to Satan.WJ,
You need to show in scripture where the Hebrew word
!tX, phonetic spelling saw-tawn
is shown directly by scripture to become the proper name of ONE person, and where that one person is a rebel super powerful spirit who wants to bring malice to human beings.
Nu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
These scriptures directly call God's messenger satan.
1Sa 29:4 And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?
1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.
Scriptures call men satan.
1Ki 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
Can you read that WJ, the Lord stirred up a satan. The scriptures do not support your doctrine. Satan is the word adversary, and the scriptures give us direct example of God stirring up adversarial men and loyal adversarial messengers. We also see men being adversaries to each other. The greatest adversary unto man of which Paul makes ever so clear in his writings is our own flesh. Our fleshly desires tempt us to sin, and sin leads to death and separates us from God. Man's spirit is the spirit of the flesh, where the flesh slanderously tells us that we must serve it to keep our life. God's Spirit of truth however can help us overcome our flesh and instead serve God who is our true source of life.
1Ki 11:23 And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:
1Ki 11:25 And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.
Ask yourself WJ, David as a leader of a military, constantly having to fight off other tribes and leaders, who do you suppose he would refer to as being his adversaries? Who would be an adversary that would cause him to number his men, something you do before deciding to go into battle? You also count your men because your numbers determine your strategy for that war.
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Ps 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.
Ps 71:13 Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt.
Ps 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
Ps 109:20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
Ps 109:29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
David’s satan are shown clearly to be MEN. There is not even a hint of some rebel spirit existing.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
WJ you have NO right and NO authority to turn around and define satan as a rebel superpowerful spirit possessing the same powers as YHWH. There exists no scriptural base to support your tradition. However we have DIRECT scriptures that define man and God’s messengers as satan.
Where is the scriptural basis for defining the adversary in Zechariah 3 as being a super powerful rebel spirit? When we put the verse into it’s context rather than plug in man’s definition, the adversary is clear. The adversary at that time were the Samaritans. They were standing in the way of Israel and of God in the rebuilding of the temple. Zechariah had a vision of the Lord rebuking the Samaritans. God, through the use of His messenger, drew the King to deny the Samaritans request.
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Once again I will ask, what scriptural basis to you have WJ, were you can claim the adversary in these scriptures represent a supernatural rebel spirit of whom hold the same powers as God?
There is no scriptural basis that shows the Hebrew word for adversary becomes at some point the proper name of one specific being. To all the sudden take a scripture and declare adversary as meaning such, is FUTILE!
Even when we have Jesus directly call a man adversary, for wanting to savourest the things of men instead of the things of God, you, because of your stubbornness to stick behind your doctrine, cannot even see the obvious.
Satan is clearly defined by Jesus as when man follows after his fleshly desires instead of following after the ways of God.
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Don’t add to the simplicity of the scriptures.
Ro 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Those in the flesh, following their flesh become satan. Scripture does not say those in the flesh who choose to follow a rebel supernatural being.
Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Nothing good dwells in us because of our FLESH, not because we choose in the flesh to follow invisible rebel spirits.
Don’t add!
What arouses the flesh? Malicious rebel spirits?
NO
Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
WJ you teach that men are evil because they live according to the influence of wicked rebel spirits, however scriptures teaches absolutely nothing of the sort.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
The devil’s deeds are our body’s deeds, not rebel spirits. The spirit in man following after the flesh is the wicked spirit, as Paul likes to refer to it as a spirit of the air, the spirit of emptiness and worthlessness.
WJ, you foolishly see the word spirit of the air and your mind runs to superstition, where you believe there exists somewhere in
the sky some invisible dark kingdom of evil creatures.Ro 9:8 That is,those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Live by the FLESH you die. Be a child of the FLESH you are not a child of God. Live according to the FLESH you die.
A child of the devil obviously represents the child that follows after the flesh.
What DRAWS us to serve our flesh?
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
The power of death is sin, the power of sin comes from the desires of the flesh. Jesus destroyed the works of the devil who had the power of death. I don’t think there is any faulty reasoning in concluding that the devil thus represents sinful flesh.
WJ you are a liar to the word of God, it clearly states that we are drawn away to sin by our own desires, never does scripture say we are drawn to serve our flesh because of invisible spirits of malice.
You cannot add to the word of God and then call that addition the truth.
Ga 5:24And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
We crucify the flesh with it’s passions and desires, NOT we disregard the influence of invisible creatures.
Ga 6:8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life
Man who sows to his flesh, not man who follows after the influence of invisible creatures.
WJ when are you going to open your eyes, and see the truth that is laid out in scripture?
Eph 2:3-among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities , against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
What scriptural base do you have WJ, for defining the rulers of the darkness of this age as being invisible rebel spirits?
What is the context of Ephesians 6 that we might understand it correctly? Well we have been told by Paul not to regard anyone who is a member of Christ’s body as being in the flesh. We have been told that those who live for Christ have crucified their flesh with it’s passions and desires.
As well we are told,
Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Ro 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
So according to Paul, the people at that time in the body of Christ had a foundation set, where they had crucified their flesh, they were are no longer SLAVES of sin to be RULED by sin, but had been SET FREE through the work of Jesus Christ and their faith in him.
The TIME that Paul wrote Ephesians he was in prison put there by the principalities, by the power of the king according to that kings heavenly place, or high position. That King was a slanderer and an adversary unto the Christians, thus making him the RULER of a dark age. The king gathered, through his powerful authority, a host of wicked men to carry out his persecution.
This is historical fact. What history or the bible cannot confirm, is that Paul was warning the people against invisible supernatural beings of possessing their minds trying to undermine their new faith in Christ. That is a futile doctrine of man.
Re 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
The devil here was not some supernatural rebel spirit who has a dark kingdom somewhere hidden in the sky, he was the King, who under the authority of his heavenly position, was about to throw Christians into prison.
John was giving a warning just as Paul was in Ephesians, not of invisible rebel spirits, but of a government that wanted to persecute them.
Revelation 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth — the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world — he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
We have been consistently told that our flesh leads us away. We have been told by Jesus that woe to the world because of the deeds of man. We have specifically been shown that man is the devil and that man is satan. We are specifically told that the dragon represents KINGS, Revelations is a vision filled with symbols. We see in the OT God cast down to the ground or earth those that are in high positions.
What we do not have in the bible is any reference to the devil or satan representing an angel who rebelled against God and God threw him out and he took with him a whole army of other angels. Not only is it not in the bible, but just the idea of it would have to draw man to seriously rethink God’s promises and the truth of Jesus’s words. Jesus said that God’s Will is for earth to be as it is in heaven. God promises no more sin in heaven and no more war with pain and suffering. If the angels can sin and make war against God in heaven, then how are we to have faith in Christ and God?
Once again WJ you need to show me where the scriptures support your doctrine that the Hebrew word for adversary at SOME POINT becomes the proper name of One person, and that the identity of that one person is a rebel malicious spirit being with powers like God.
Hi Jodi,
It is not necessary to show how satan became the adversary just to know His current useful role in God's plan.
His future is in the lake of fire.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2009,14:37) G,
God allows Satan to test men at times.
We need tp pray for protection from that hard testing.
Like Job used to have we need the hedge of God's protection.
When God allows testing we need to use the given powers against Satan.
God wants us to share in the victory of Jesus over the strong one, the god of this world.Nick you need to back this by scripture, until then it is your OWN ideas.
Do you have scriptures that tell us we should ignore these?
Psalms 7:8 The Lord shall judge the peoples; Judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, And according to my integrity within me. 9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.
Jeremiah 20:11 But the Lord is with me as a mighty, awesome One. Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail. They will be greatly ashamed, for they will not prosper. Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten. 12 But, O Lord of hosts, You who test the righteous, And see the mind and heart, Let me see Your vengeance on them; For I have pleaded my cause before You. 13 Sing to the Lord! Praise the Lord! For He has delivered the life of the poor From the hand of evildoers.
1 Thess 2:4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.
Nick, what you state is very untruthful. You say God allows Satan to tests us. The bible says that God tests us.
And how about this,
Romans 5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
God builds character through tribulation.
You said, “We need tp pray for protection from that hard testing.”
That doesn't make senses according to what the scriptures say.
Testing comes to man according to God's Will and God's Desire for the purpose to build righteous character. When testing and tribulation comes we need to turn to God as Jesus did, trusting in God's will that it is all for a PURPOSE and for our benifit, even though we may not like it one bit. We need to embrace it and not turn bitter, but form understanding, asking God what am I suppose to learn from this?
Hi Jodi,
The devil, satan, the serpent, the dragon…You must have very thick glasses not to see him spoken of by Jesus and his brothers.
Reliance on the OT, written to carnal men, will show you very little of these other realms of existence.
You must be born again even to see the kingdom. Wake up and seek enlightenment from above.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2009,10:50) Hi Jodi,
It is not necessary to show how satan became the adversary just to know His current useful role in God's plan.
His future is in the lake of fire.
Nick,Your speaking nonsense.
Listen to what you just said,
it's not necessary to show how the adversary became the adversary?
I am asking to show how the Hebrew word that means adversary went from being used as the word adversary to ONE person.
When people declare the Hebrew word adversary represents, in several instances, the same one person, they need to show scriptural proof of that. They need to show as well, where they get from taking a word that means merely adversary and creating it to represent a powerful rebel spirit being.
You cannot take a word that means adversaryand say it means and represents something else, without showing scriptural proof.
I can take the word dragon and say that it represents kings because I have direct scriptural proof.
I can take the word SATAN and prove that it represents in certain parts of the bible, God's messenger, because I have direct scriptural proof.
I can take the word SATAN and prove that it represents in certain places, a human being, because I have direct scriptural proof.
Nick if at sometimes satan in the bible means a rebel powerful spirit being, then prove it through a direct scripture.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2009,11:20) Hi Jodi,
You have shown us and told us you do not believe scripture so we cannot help you with it.
Nick you are the one who is denying the scriptures that say God tests us.You say God allows Satan to test us, but you can't even give scriptural support, all you can to is be a devil!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2009,11:35) Hi Jodi,
It is not for us to prove to you anything.
Learn from scripture.
Nick this forum is for debating and sharing our understanding.If people are going to say that the scriptures mean something or they want to say a word represents something, then they should back it up with scriptural proof.
Once again don't tell me to “learn from scripture”, just another way of saying, “what do the scriptures say.” Your right no one has to prove anything to me, duh. But if people want to debate on this forum I believe we should have certain standards, of which I'd think would start with backing up what you say with scripture.
You must not hold your understanding up to a very high standard if your not even willing to prove it.
The reason why you don't is because you simply can't, and it's sad that you'd rather turn to arrogance and slander then just leave it alone.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 07 2009,12:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2009,11:35) Hi Jodi,
It is not for us to prove to you anything.
Learn from scripture.
Nick this forum is for debating and sharing our understanding.If people are going to say that the scriptures mean something or they want to say a word represents something, then they should back it up with scriptural proof.
Once again don't tell me to “learn from scripture”, just another way of saying, “what do the scriptures say.” Your right no one has to prove anything to me, duh. But if people want to debate on this forum I believe we should have certain standards, of which I'd think would start with backing up what you say with scripture.
You must not hold your understanding up to a very high standard if your not even willing to prove it.
The reason why you don't is because you simply can't, and it's sad that you'd rather turn to arrogance and slander then just leave it alone.
Jodi……….Truer word were never spoken. In my opinion Nick has no idea what He is saying or confirming, and his own word prove it. You have correctly cut the words of GOD, if the spirit is there it will be recieved if not, don't let it get you down not all understand sis.peace and love to you and your Jodi…………….gene
Thanks again Gene,
I was just thinking about not letting people get me down a moment ago as I was making myself a fresh glass of carrot, celery, grapefruit, and apple juice. Hmm yummy and nutritious, especially with a scoop of flaxseed! Certainly better then how I started out this morning with two pieces of pizza and a twix bar with coffee, yikes!!
When I first realized the truth about Satan a couple of years ago, I didn't sleep for three days!! I was so excited, all I could do was read scripture…. so many things were finally making sense and becoming clear.
When I see Nick say stuff like,” I believe things happen in spiritual realms of which we are only vaguely aware at times,” I just find it so unfortunate. One word gets misunderstood and people can't see the proper understanding. In Nick's case of Jude 1:9 he is left with no understanding at all. He just chalks it up to there are hidden places and hidden persons that make us vaguely aware of what scriptures mean.
To be honest, it's not that people don't gobble up my posts and agree with me that bothers me, it's that some disagree so fervently but yet they cannot point out directly where I am at error, or even produce any scriptural support for their view. That is what is very frustrating.
I hope your having a great weekend Gene, love to you, Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 07 2009,13:54) Thanks again Gene, I was just thinking about not letting people get me down a moment ago as I was making myself a fresh glass of carrot, celery, grapefruit, and apple juice. Hmm yummy and nutritious, especially with a scoop of flaxseed! Certainly better then how I started out this morning with two pieces of pizza and a twix bar with coffee, yikes!!
When I first realized the truth about Satan a couple of years ago, I didn't sleep for three days!! I was so excited, all I could do was read scripture…. so many things were finally making sense and becoming clear.
When I see Nick say stuff like,” I believe things happen in spiritual realms of which we are only vaguely aware at times,” I just find it so unfortunate. One word gets misunderstood and people can't see the proper understanding. In Nick's case of Jude 1:9 he is left with no understanding at all. He just chalks it up to there are hidden places and hidden persons that make us vaguely aware of what scriptures mean.
To be honest, it's not that people don't gobble up my posts and agree with me that bothers me, it's that some disagree so fervently but yet they cannot point out directly where I am at error, or even produce any scriptural support for their view. That is what is very frustrating.
I hope your having a great weekend Gene, love to you, Jodi
Jude 1:9 (King James Version)9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Why do you disagree with this verse as being invalid when you consider this:
John 8:43-45 (King James Version)
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Now here we see clearly that “he” is the father of lies and then he is called the devil who is the same he that contended with Michael, so this “Devil” was an “advesary” to Michael without the express permission of God because the Scripture says Michael said “The Lord rebuke thee”
Now for this spirit not to be rebellious Michael would have to be rebellious which I'm sure we can agree that Michael was not rebellious.
Revelation 12:8-10 (King James Version)
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Once again we have the term “him” and “his” angels and that he and his were “cast out”
Now, I am not saying that you were incorrect in much of your interpretations but clearly Satan/Devil is real so do not be deceived.
1 Peter 5:7-9 (King James Version)
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
DB………..Your need to go back and take your time and read read what JODI POSTED, She covered what you are talking about concerning the body of Moses. It was not his personal body because GOD berried Him, that Jude is discussing but His body of believers, even as Jesus has a body of believers also. God back and read what she wrote and all the scriptures she gave to back up her view. There is no devil or Satan beings going around jumping in and out of people. The doctrines about devil and demon beings is another teaching of the apostate churches. Men are the devils and Satans in the earth. They are the true ADVERSARIES of GOD, not some spook of some kind. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
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