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Just what did Jesus say about darkness and man..
Matthew 6:19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Two masters described here, fleshly desire seen through the eye of man enticing greed, and God.
Jesus shows NO sign here of any evil spirit beings able to possess or influencing man.
What else does Jesus say,
Mt 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
The dominion of darkness, according to Jesus, is shown strictly to be coming from MAN.
The power of darkness Jesus says comes
Mark 7:18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Nick you seem to have a hard time understanding the words of Jesus. When he says NOTHING from outside a man can defile a man but such dark things as evil thoughts, adulteries, murders..etc, come from within, that DIRECTLY TELLS US THAT evil spirit beings do not inhabit inside man and cause or influence him to do evil.
No scripture says that sin comes from within man after some spirit being has inhabited man.
What else did Jesus say
Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Once again NO mention by Jesus of evil spirit beings inhabitating man causing him to do evil. What we have is another strait forward scripture showing man's own body drawing him to sin.
Luke 22:52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to Him, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs? 53 When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”
Who is having the power of darkness, and is seizing Jesus? MEN!
What has Paul said concerning darkness?
Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
It could seriously not be any clearer, the works of darkness come from fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.
Darkness is created through giving into the flesh, not from some hidden evil world of spirit beings who are against God and full of malice.
Nick, are you going to believe the scriptures or the traditions of man?
Hi Jodi,
You seem to miss so much.
The vessel of man is designed to house the Spirit of God but other spirits take residence thereNick……….The same question to you remains (WHAT is SPIRIT) Have you come to see that yet? If not it may be YOU who seems to miss so much , NOT Jodi.
G,
We know you cannot tolerate the teachings of Jesus on these matters and prefer your own taoist ideas.
But this is a scriptural website.Jodi………Don't get discouraged by those who don't understand. You have presented it right and all the scriptures you use prove what you are saying, It is evident GOD has revealed this unto you and it is good that you post it. The truth is never accepted by the blind and mislead. It only their traditions that they follow, the love for truth is not in them, The truth is (NOT) what many seek, Hold fast to what GOD has given YOU. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………………………………..gene
G,
If we do not accept the intellectual constructs you add to the bible does that make us blind and lacking in understanding?Nick………It's not my addition that the problems Here it you can't makes sense out of what Jesus plainly said, that the problem. Let me quote it again to you. Jesus Speaking (not me), THE (WORDS) I AM TELLING YOU (ARE SPIRIT) AND LIFE. Now what part of that you can't understand Nick> Now ask yourself , what is a (WORD), and then YOU WILL KNOW WHAT (SPIRIT) IS. JUST THAT SIMPLE, PLEASE GIVE US AN ANSWER TO THIS VERY SIMPLE STATEMENT BY JESUS. if you can't understand this it's no wonder to me you can't understand what Jodi is saying, even though She posts scripture after scripture to prove Her point.
You say i add intellectual constructs to the bible…….How by saying SPIRIT is WORDS and WORDS are the expression of intellect. Give me a break. If this is not the case then PROVE IT, DON'T JUST KEEP MAKING SNIDE REMARKS ABOUT IT. Put you proof where your mouth is, instead of just handing out TILES WHEN EVER YOUR CONFRONTED. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,13:40) G,
We know you cannot tolerate the teachings of Jesus on these matters and prefer your own taoist ideas.
But this is a scriptural website.
Nick………..And you prefer you own labeling Ideas as usual over truth. IMOpeace and love………………gene
Quote (Gene @ June 04 2009,14:32) Nick………It's not my addition that the problems Here it you can't makes sense out of what Jesus plainly said, that the problem. Let me quote it again to you. Jesus Speaking (not me), THE (WORDS) I AM TELLING YOU (ARE SPIRIT) AND LIFE. Now what part of that you can't understand Nick> Now ask yourself , what is a (WORD), and then YOU WILL KNOW WHAT (SPIRIT) IS. JUST THAT SIMPLE, PLEASE GIVE US AN ANSWER TO THIS VERY SIMPLE STATEMENT BY JESUS. if you can't understand this it's no wonder to me you can't understand what Jodi is saying, even though She posts scripture after scripture to prove Her point. You say i add intellectual constructs to the bible…….How by saying SPIRIT is WORDS and WORDS are the expression of intellect. Give me a break. If this is not the case then PROVE IT, DON'T JUST KEEP MAKING SNIDE REMARKS ABOUT IT. Put you proof where your mouth is, instead of just handing out TILES WHEN EVER YOUR CONFRONTED. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
G,
The words of Jesus are from the Spirit and are Spirit and life to those who can accept and obey them.But you apply such a person scripture unwisely to all men.
Nick……… Were not talking about where there (FROM) were talking about what they (ARE). Jesus did not say the words are (FROM) Spirit , thats your Intellectual additions to scripture which you accuse me of, He Said THEY (ARE) SPIRIT and (ARE) life. It doesn't seem to bother you at all when it comes to you twisting what Jesus says does it? And Yes i do apply it to all men Their Spirit is their intellect and the way they live their lives prove it. And we judge their Spirits by what they say.
GOD'S Spirit is His intellect that was transfered to Jesus and Jesus transfered them to us, Giving Us GODLY understanding. We are washed by the washing of the (WORDS) of GOD , because it change our intellects or MINDS and Thoughts. It amazes me how you can so easily ignore the truth, and even be arrogant about it. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ June 04 2009,15:58) Nick……… Were not talking about where there (FROM) were talking about what they (ARE). Jesus did not say the words are (FROM) Spirit , thats your Intellectual additions to scripture which you accuse me of, He Said THEY (ARE) SPIRIT and (ARE) life. It doesn't seem to bother you at all when it comes to you twisting what Jesus says does it? And Yes i do apply it to all men Their Spirit is their intellect and the way they live their lives prove it. And we judge their Spirits by what they say. GOD'S Spirit is His intellect that was transfered to Jesus and Jesus transfered them to us, Giving Us GODLY understanding. We are washed by the washing of the (WORDS) of GOD , because it change our intellects or MINDS and Thoughts. It amazes me how you can so easily ignore the truth, and even be arrogant about it. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
You makes sense to me Gene….of course you already knew that =)!Thanks for the encouragement. I must admit I get very frustrated on this forum and sometimes I feel it can make me mean spirited and then I must leave for awhile and chill out. I need to work on being more patient and kind to those who disagree. After all I owe a great deal to those who debate me, their disagreement always pulls me deeper into scripture and gives me a greater understanding.
I am very eager to study the bible more and share what IMO is the truth. I feel on this forum for the most part I am just wasting my time. When I talk with young people, people who have not been indoctrinated, they love what I have to say and are very encouraging to me. I know it's good for me to face the sort of opposition that comes on this forum, so I plan on sticking around, but it is definitely nice when I come across those who are encouraging, so once again…thank you!
Love to you Gene……Jodi
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,17:39) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,00:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!!
Hi JodiWhats sick and twisted is to believe that YHWH brings sickness and disease on the upright and the righteous and kills their families!
Can you maybe show us some other examples of the “upright and righteous” in the scriptures that the Lord killed or brought sickness and disease on?
Your doctrine goes against the 1000s of scriptures that says the Lord will bless and not curse those who obey him and walk uprightly before him!
The Lord said to satan…
“Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7
“”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job 2:3
Job walked in all the truth that he knew and in the Lords eyes he was perfect and upright. Could he still grow and did he become a better man? Of course he did! The good news is God works “all things” together for good to those that love him, even those things in which the enemies of God and man mean for harm or evil!
Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil?
Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason?
Those are YHWH’s words.
Yet you seem not to believe them? You want to point to Jobs words or the testimony of his friends in order to support your doctrine, rather than accept the words of the Lord!
What does YHWH say?
WJ
Hi JodiQuote (Jodi Lee @ June 02 2009,18:46)
I have already given you examples of scriptures that show how God allows the punishment He has given to a father to affect his innocent children.
Yes, for those who rebel against him, but you still are evading giving us an example of YHWH bringing sickness and disease on the “RIGHTEOUS” and killing their families!This is what YHWH says…
See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse—“*THE BLESSING IF YOU OBEY THE COMMANDS* of the Lord your God that I am giving you today; *THE CURSE IF YOU DISOBEY THE COMMANDS* of the Lord your God and turn from the way that I command you today” by following other gods, which you have not known. Deut 11:26-28
”When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, *AND WHEN YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD AND OBEY HIM WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL ACCORDING TO EVERYTHING I COMMAND YOU TODAY, THEN THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL RESTORE YOUR FORTUNES* and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. *HE WILL BRING YOU TO THE LAND THAT BELONGED TO YOUR FATHERS, AND YOU WILL TAKE POSSESSION OF IT. *HE WILL MAKE YOU MORE PROSPEROUS AND NUMEROUS THAN YOUR FATHERS*”. Deut 30:5
How much clearer does it get jodi? God doesn’t bring curses on the righteous and obedient. But in fact promises them if they turn to the Lord with their whole heart he will bless them and restore them.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 02 2009,18:46)
Do not deny scripture that says God ALONE brings curses, and that those curses can be passed down onto generations, making children have to reap their parents mistakes.
No, it is you who is denying the scriptures that clearly teach God doesn’t curse the righteous and obedient. And as far as their children……AND WHEN YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD AND OBEY HIM WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL ACCORDING TO EVERYTHING I COMMAND YOU TODAY, THEN THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL RESTORE YOUR FORTUNES
Yes unfortunately the innocent children can be victims of their Fathers disobedience, but if they turn to the Lord then he promises to heal them and to break the curses off of their lives, but that is not the case with Job is it? Job didn't bring the evil on his family!
You are making God out to be a liar by claiming that YHWH killed Job's family and destroyed all that he had and struck him with sickness to death, when YHWH clearly says he would not do that to the righteous or those that are obedient and especially in Job's case when YHWH clearly states…
“Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 02 2009,18:46)
I'm sorry WJ, but this scripture is HARDLY proof that the adversary is an evil rebel spirit who is against God and who wants to commit malice against Job. He is shown to be in God's presence, discussing matters over with God about Job, and he is asking for YHWH's Hand and FOLLOWING YHWH'S commands!!
Read it again Jodi.“Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7
“”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, THOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON.” Job 2:3
…THOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON. Job 2:3
DEFINITION FOR INCITE: TO CAUSE OR PROVOKE SOMEONE INTO DOING SOMETHING, USUALLY SOMETHING NEGATIVE
Synonyms: provoke, instigate, inflame, stir up, encourage
Antonyms: restrain
Tips: Incite often has a negative connotation and is often used in the formulation “to incite someone to something.” Use incite to denote the actions of someone who provokes or instigates others to create trouble. Source.
Do you think YHWH cannot be provoked to anger, and this is exactly what satan was trying to do.
Satan being frustrated the first time comes back and says…
“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? “YOU HAVE BLESSED THE WORK OF HIS HANDS, SO THAT HIS FLOCKS AND HERDS ARE SPREAD THROUGHOUT THE LAND”. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, “AND HE WILL SURELY CURSE YOU TO YOUR FACE”. The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. Job 1:9-12
Satan the enemy of God and of Job takes note at how God has blessed him for his obedience and admits that God has a hedge around him so he cannot touch him, yet Satan incites the Lord to remove that hedge and strike everything that he has and Job will curse him. But, did Job curse God? No Satan was a liar then and a liar now and the Father of all lies.
In all this, “JOB DID NOT SIN BY CHARGING GOD WITH WRONG DOING”.
So we see that God and Job won against satan’s attempt to destroy Job without cause.
“”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, THOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON.” Job 2:3
…THOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON. Job 2:3
After satan realizes his evil attempt to get Job to curse God failed, then we no longer hear of him in Job's life!
Jodi, to this day I haven’t seen you give us a single source for your false teachings concerning satan.
All you keep doing is plastering your apologetics and accusing everyone here of being blind and foolish when they disagree with you, even though these truths stare you right in the face and you still reject them.
Whose word will you believe Jodi, YHWH’s or the testimony of satan or the men of Job's day including Job who obviously did not understand why the evil was happening to him?
Your doctrine claiming God brings sickness and disease on the righteous and obedient has no scriptural basis at all.
You have not given one example of a righteous man being cursed by YHWH have you?
Job was righteous and God “allowed” satan to tempt Job just as he does for the saints today and even Jesus in the wilderness who was not mad as you would have us believe.
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Cor 10:13
If the temptations we have are simply from within then why does he say he will not allow us to be tempted beyond our strength or what we can bear?
If the temptations are a result of just our evil nature then why does God say “he will not allow temptation beyond what we can bear”?
There would be no need for God to allow or not to allow anything because according to you our evil nature is the only thing that is tempting us.
So, for the last time I ask you…
Where is the scripture Jodi that says YHWH curses the righteous and obedient?
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,16:34) G,
There must be a bible somewhere that agrees with you.
taoist perhaps?
Nick………. My standard Kings James is just fine thanks. Your words only proves my point about arrogance. Labeling is a sign of ignorance (and) arrogance and insulting as you have just proved again. Only problem we can't give you a tile for your insults as you can us right? Does Hypocrisy mean anything to you.peace and love…………………gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2009,17:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,17:39) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,00:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!!
Hi JodiWhats sick and twisted is to believe that YHWH brings sickness and disease on the upright and the righteous and kills their families!
Can you maybe show us some other examples of the “upright and righteous” in the scriptures that the Lord killed or brought sickness and disease on?
Your doctrine goes against the 1000s of scriptures that says the Lord will bless and not curse those who obey him and walk uprightly before him!
The Lord said to satan…
“Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7
“”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job 2:3
Job walked in all the truth that he knew and in the Lords eyes he was perfect and upright. Could he still grow and did he become a better man? Of course he did! The good news is God works “all things” together for good to those that love him, even those things in which the enemies of God and man mean for harm or evil!
Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil?
Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason?
Those are YHWH’s words.
Yet you seem not to believe them? You want to point to Jobs words or the testimony of his friends in order to support your doctrine, rather than accept the words of the Lord!
What does YHWH say?
WJ
Hi JodiQuote (Jodi Lee @ June 02 2009,18:46)
I have already given you examples of scriptures that show how God allows the punishment He has given to a father to affect his innocent children.
Yes, for those who rebel against him, but you still are evading giving us an example of YHWH bringing sickness and disease on the “RIGHTEOUS” and killing their families!This is what YHWH says…
See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse—“*THE BLESSING IF YOU OBEY THE COMMANDS* of the Lord your God that I am giving you today; *THE CURSE IF YOU DISOBEY THE COMMANDS* of the Lord your God and turn from the way that I command you today” by following other gods, which you have not known. Deut 11:26-28
”When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, *AND WHEN YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD AND OBEY HIM WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL ACCORDING TO EVERYTHING I COMMAND YOU TODAY, THEN THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL RESTORE YOUR FORTUNES* and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. *HE WILL BRING YOU TO THE LAND THAT BELONGED TO YOUR FATHERS, AND YOU WILL TAKE POSSESSION OF IT. *HE WILL MAKE YOU MORE PROSPEROUS AND NUMEROUS THAN YOUR FATHERS*”. Deut 30:5
How much clearer does it get jodi? God doesn’t bring curses on the righteous and obedient. But in fact promises them if they turn to the Lord with their whole heart he will bless them and restore them.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 02 2009,18:46)
Do not deny scripture that says God ALONE brings curses, and that those curses can be passed down onto generations, making children have to reap their parents mistakes.
No, it is you who is denying the scriptures that clearly teach God doesn’t curse the righteous and obedient. And as far as their children……AND WHEN YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD AND OBEY HIM WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL ACCORDING TO EVERYTHING I COMMAND YOU TODAY, THEN THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL RESTORE YOUR FORTUNES
Yes unfortunately the innocent children can be victims of their Fathers disobedience, but if they turn to the Lord then he promises to heal them and to break the curses off of their lives, but that is not the case with Job is it? Job didn't bring the evil on his family!
You are making God out to be a liar by claiming that YHWH killed Job's family and destroyed all that he had and struck him with sickness to death, when YHWH clearly says he would not do that to the righteous or those that are obedient and especially in Job's case when YHWH clearly states…
“Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 02 2009,18:46)
I'm sorry WJ, but this scripture is HARDLY proof that the adversary is an evil rebel spirit who is against God and who wants to commit malice against Job. He is shown to be in God's presence, discussing matters over with God about Job, and he is asking for YHWH's Hand and FOLLOWING YHWH'S commands!!
Read it again Jodi.“Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7
“”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, THOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON.” Job 2:3
…THOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON. Job 2:3
DEFINITION FOR INCITE: TO CAUSE OR PROVOKE SOMEONE INTO DOING SOMETHING, USUALLY SOMETHING NEGATIVE
Synonyms: provoke, instigate, inflame, stir up, encourage
Antonyms: rest
rainTips: Incite often has a negative connotation and is often used in the formulation “to incite someone to something.” Use incite to denote the actions of someone who provokes or instigates others to create trouble. Source.
Do you think YHWH cannot be provoked to anger, and this is exactly what satan was trying to do.
Satan being frustrated the first time comes back and says…
“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? “YOU HAVE BLESSED THE WORK OF HIS HANDS, SO THAT HIS FLOCKS AND HERDS ARE SPREAD THROUGHOUT THE LAND”. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, “AND HE WILL SURELY CURSE YOU TO YOUR FACE”. The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. Job 1:9-12
Satan the enemy of God and of Job takes note at how God has blessed him for his obedience and admits that God has a hedge around him so he cannot touch him, yet Satan incites the Lord to remove that hedge and strike everything that he has and Job will curse him. But, did Job curse God? No Satan was a liar then and a liar now and the Father of all lies.
In all this, “JOB DID NOT SIN BY CHARGING GOD WITH WRONG DOING”.
So we see that God and Job won against satan’s attempt to destroy Job without cause.
“”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, THOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON.” Job 2:3
…THOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON. Job 2:3
After satan realizes his evil attempt to get Job to curse God failed, then we no longer hear of him in Job's life!
Jodi, to this day I haven’t seen you give us a single source for your false teachings concerning satan.
All you keep doing is plastering your apologetics and accusing everyone here of being blind and foolish when they disagree with you, even though these truths stare you right in the face and you still reject them.
Whose word will you believe Jodi, YHWH’s or the testimony of satan or the men of Job's day including Job who obviously did not understand why the evil was happening to him?
Your doctrine claiming God brings sickness and disease on the righteous and obedient has no scriptural basis at all.
You have not given one example of a righteous man being cursed by YHWH have you?
Job was righteous and God “allowed” satan to tempt Job just as he does for the saints today and even Jesus in the wilderness who was not mad as you would have us believe.
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Cor 10:13
If the temptations we have are simply from within then why does he say he will not allow us to be tempted beyond our strength or what we can bear?
If the temptations are a result of just our evil nature then why does God say “he will not allow temptation beyond what we can bear”?
There would be no need for God to allow or not to allow anything because according to you our evil nature is the only thing that is tempting us.
So, for the last time I ask you…
Where is the scripture Jodi that says YHWH curses the righteous and obedient?
WJ
I'm NOT evading anything.With the exception of Jesus, NO man was without sin.
WJ, all men except Jesus FALL short and are sinners, and we ALL SUFFER IN THIS WORLD.
Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned–
When Adam sinned the ENTIRE EARTH WAS PUNISHED, even the soil!
All woman bring forth children in pain and with suffering due to a punishment given by God for the sin of one person.
Scripture shows WJ, that it is by God, that INNOCENT children can inherit their parents punishments.
Deuteronomy 28 tells us many things, one being that to punish Israel God would make their children captive by foreigners, turning them into slaves, and God said that diseases would pass through generations because of the sins of ONE generation.
You said, ” Yes unfortunately the innocent children can be victims of their Fathers disobedience, but if they turn to the Lord then he promises to heal them and to break the curses off of their lives’
Yes if people turn they can be restored, but not after innocent people have ended up suffering.
You cannot deny my point that God allows innocent people to suffer. You have pretty much admitted it yourself.
Scripture declares that if one person obeys God that person and their family will be blessed and if that person does not obey God that person and his FAMILY will suffer.
So we see it goes both ways,
Because of Abraham all nations will be blessed, because of Jesus our sins are forgiven.
Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Ge 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Ge 26:24 And the Lord appeared to him the same night and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham's sake.”
Ge 27:29 Let peoples serve you, And nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, And let your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, And blessed be those who bless you!”
We see that God will bless PAGAN nations for blessing Israel.
These pagans were not righteous, yet they were blessed by God because of how they treated Israel.De 7:13 And He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your land, your grain and your new wine and your oil, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flock, in the land of which He swore to your fathers to give you.
Ps 5:12 For You, O Lord, will bless the righteous; With favor You will surround him as with a shield.
When we are told in the bible that people were righteous, that does not mean they were perfect. Job was not perfect and the Book of Job shows clearly that he wasn't. We see God give Job much instruction and we see Job upon that instruction admit he behaved vile and then we see him repent.
Blessing and Cursing is not so black and white as you seem to believe it is WJ. When someone is blessed that doesn't mean that there ENTIRE life is just all perfect and complete bliss and joy. As well, when a MAN is said to be righteous that isn’t so black and white either. No man measures up to Christ and even Christ suffered in order to learn obedience.
I am trying to understand your reasoning. It seems you believe that God blesses and curses those according to their dee
ds, however there is another supernatural power that curses people no matter what?You said, “You are making God out to be a liar by claiming that YHWH killed Job's family and destroyed all that he had and struck him with sickness to death, when YHWH clearly says he would not do that to the righteous
According to you Job should not of been cursed because he was upright, he didn't deserve to be cursed. So why did God give the command to go ahead and curse Job then?
So by what your saying, If God is going to truly bless those who are upright doesn't that mean He would then have the duty to PROTECT people against the hand of the rebel spirit?
Is it not your argument that infliction in the world is caused by rebel spirit beings? That it is they who bring pain and sickness into the world, it is they that bring it upon the innocent, for God would never do such a thing as to make an innocent man suffer?
My question is then, if God says He is going to bless and curse according to deeds, then shouldn't that over ride any sort of injustice that a rebel spirit wants to make against a person?
Do you see what I am getting at here? Innocent people don't suffer because of rebel spirits, otherwise God is a liar when He says that he will bless the righteous. To bless the righteous MEANS that you bless them, MEANING YOU WOULD NOT ALLOW FOR REBEL BEINGS TO INFLICT THEM for no cause but just for malice.
Once again to clarify, you say that God would not strike the righteous, He blesses the righteous, however the fact of the matter is God is certainly not blessing Job by allowing some other being to curse him, is He, on the contrary according to you He is allowing him to be cursed. So to you, God works kind of half ass, saying He will bless the righteous but if some rebel spirit desiring malice comes along all bets or rather all promises are off.
I feel VERY blessed by God in so many ways, I also feel at the same time, I am under certain trials and tribulations in other areas as well. Those trials I accept as a means of God wanting to teach me something. Some people are blessed into certain ways while others are in other ways, and the same goes with infliction and God’s testing.Job was a good and upright man, but that didn't mean he was without the need for being tested by God and improve some faults that he had.
The eye of the Lord that roams to and fro on the earth saw just exactly that, Job needed testing, he needed to be put through trials and tribulation.
As I explained earlier the first test of infliction Job passed, and God had said that the adversary had incited him for no good reason, for Job did not falter. However the fact of the matter is the only reason why Job didn’t falter at first was because God had made the restriction NOT to harm Job’s body, and it was that infliction the second time around that exposed the reason why God and the adversary were right in inflicting Job. Of course God, with His foreknowledge knew all this ahead of time.
1:12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
Had God allowed the adversary to inflict Job's flesh in the first place, God would have NEVER needed to say to the adversary that you incited me against him for no reason. God was in control of it all, He set a boundary of infliction aware of the cause.
Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” 4 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”
Isn’t it rather interesting how the adversary knew that inflicting the body of Job would in fact cause Job to falter, but that was the one thing God withheld the first time? Notice how Job 2:3 is a question by God to the adversary followed up with a comment. I think the scripture needs a much closer look then people give it, due to their indoctrinization.
Remember God said not to harm Job’s flesh in the first infliction, God later says, see he is upright, and the adversary says wait a minute, strike his flesh and he will surely curse you. The adversary says to the Lord, well “stretch out Your hand NO and touch his bone and his flesh and he will surely curse you.” They both knew what was up. And it all goes to show where Job’s weakness did lie, the whole process tells the reader about Job, and more importantly it told Job something about himself at the time. Job was an upright man, even after his family was cured he stayed loyal to God, however he did in fact go weak when his own flesh was stricken, making him question many things about God, exposing his ignorance as well as his self-righteousness. God and the adversary knew Job had needed testing for the purpose of refinement.
So WJ, does not your view express that God can be FALSELY INCITED?
Incite- stimulate, motivate, push, stir up, cause, bring about
You honestly think that God allows Himself to be persuaded to do something by some evil being?
What made the adversary move God to inflict Job? What was it that the adversary said or did, that would incite God to inflict Job? Don’t you see WJ, that the word incite means some sort of persuasion took place? Is God going to trust a rebel spirit? Is God going to inflict Job for malice sake like you presume is the reason why the adversary wants to inflict Job?
Scripture shows that God's messengers act as His eyes and ears roaming to and fro over all the earth. They consult with the Lord on what they see and then they carry out God's directions. God was incited by the adversary because the adversary was a trusted messenger of God united in God with His Holy Spirit, united with God to instruct man.
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
The adversary asked God if Job feared the Lord for nothing, implying that Job's fear of God was LACKING, that Job only feared God because of circumstance.
Ex 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.
De 8:2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.
Israel in the wilderness was TESTED. At times God withheld from them food and water. He knew their hearts would be exposed and that they would curse Him. God knew that they had a great deal to learn, and that infliction works for instruction.
Now if God would have had the wilderness full of milk and honey, would they have been tested? Would they have learned anything?
Would Job have learned anything if he continued to live his pampered life?
We see in the bib
le that the Israelites during their time in the wilderness would reap punishment for direct sins they committed. We also see however, as in the case of God not providing water, that people would suffer strictly for the purpose of needing to be tested and exposing hearts.Job had a hedge around him with little or no opportunity to grow in grace and knowledge, As I mentioned before, Job was upright and righteous according to his circumstances. The adversary, in my understanding was a messenger of God, God's eye on earth, and he SAW that Job feared God for nothing and that he needed testing and refinement. .
Jeremiah 20:11 But the Lord is with me as a mighty, awesome One. Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail. They will be greatly ashamed, for they will not prosper. Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten. 12 But, O Lord of hosts, You who test the righteous, And see the mind and heart, Let me see Your vengeance on them; For I have pleaded my cause before You. 13 Sing to the Lord! Praise the Lord! For He has delivered the life of the poor From the hand of evildoers.
Genesis 22:1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”……….
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” 12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
To be asked to kill your own son, is a rather deep infliction to the heart. Did God bring this on Abraham because he sinned? No it was strictly for the sake of testing and teaching.
We have direct scripture that shows that God inflicts the righteous, as a means to test and teach them.
Here are a few more-
Psalms 7:8 The Lord shall judge the peoples; Judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, And according to my integrity within me. 9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.
1 Thess 2:4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.
WJ, what part of this scripture is so hard for you to understand?
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
There is NO ONE ELSE. There is NO ONE ELSE that can CREATE CALAMITY.
God says not to fear anyone else, that to believe in someone else causing calamity is futile. The image WJ that you have in your head of a rebel being having powers like God, being able to cause calamity is a false image. God says that image you have in your head cannot walk or talk, it cannot do any good nor any bad. God is the only one who can bring disease and death, darkness and calamity.
Sometimes good people are faced with trials, and are inflicted with suffering. This is as God says, to test the hearts and the minds and to refine them so that they grow in grace and in knowledge.
The book of Job was not about God allowing a rebel spirit to tempt Job. The book of Job was about God testing Job by His Hand through His powers of infliction, for the CAUSE of bringing Job into refinement on his character allowing him to grow in grace and knowledge.
WJ, you said, “After satan realizes his evil attempt to get Job to curse God failed, then we no longer hear of him in Job's life!”
Well I ask you….. why did we not see after the second infliction God declare once again to the adversary that he incited him to destroy Job without cause? Shouldn’t the book of Job just have ended there? The fact that it continues on and the substance of the later scriptures actually show that the adversary was spot on.
Therefore in all actuality, the adversary only appeared to be wrong. Like I mentioned earlier, if it weren’t for God’s restriction the adversary would have been right from the beginning.
WJ, if you are right then it seems like the book would have ended with Chapter two, but it didn't it went on to show some dark nature in Job. The book went on to have Job accuse God of injustice. The book went on to have God speak with Job considerably, teaching Job who He was. The book went on with God telling Job, “Who is this that darkens My council by words without knowledge?” and, “Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who REBUKES God let him answer it.” The book goes on to have Job admit he was a fool and acted vile. The book goes on to have Job repent.
There was cause or reason to inflict Job he had ignorance and self-righteousness hidden inside him that was not exposed until his flesh was inflicted.
One thing that has not been answered is why did the adversary ask Godto Stretch out Your Hand
You try to say WJ, that it was ALL the adversaries hand, but the scriptures clearly say that it was God’s Hand. Knowing that the adversary was given the commandment to go ahead and inflict Job, and that the adversary obeyed the Lord in what He said, and knowing that it is God’s messengers who carry out God’s Hand. In my opinion it makes it all clear that the adversary was in fact God’s messenger.
Jodi………..Amen, Sis. And you didn't even use this…> Job 42:11 ” and they bemoaned him and comforted him over all the (EVIL) that the (LORD) had (BROUGHT) upon him,”
WJ………that shows The LORD, took full responsibility for what happened to JOB. It was for JOB'S ultimate good IMO.
WJ……….look at the end of the millennial of Jesus and the Saints. All the world was shielded from Evil, and look what the LORD had to do at the end of it, inorder to teach mankind thier needed leasons., It in mayny way is just like what happened to JOB in his shealtered life. IMO
peace and love to you all……………gene
G,
God allows Satan to test men at times.
We need tp pray for protection from that hard testing.
Like Job used to have we need the hedge of God's protection.
When God allows testing we need to use the given powers against Satan.
God wants us to share in the victory of Jesus over the strong one, the god of this world.
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