Beelzebub and demons

[kerwin]

Gene wrote:

Quote

There is no end to what you can find out there. But Jodi gave (MANY) scriptures to support Her findings and i personally agree with her.

She gave her take on many scriptures and her take agreed with her which is hardly surprising.

Scripture on the other hand clearly states demons exist and that they believe in God and because of that belief tremble in fear.

Scripture also clearly states that Jesus exercised demons.

Scripture also clearly states that Satan struck Job with many trials and tribulations.

Scripture also clearly states that Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert.

Scripture also clearly states that the arch Angel Michael had a disagreement with Satan over the body of Mosses.

So in short you and Jodi Lee are clearly teaching a false doctrine and all false teachings come from the devil.  In Jodi's case though her false teaching appears to be similar to one I heard from a Jew and thus I accused her of listening to the teachings of the synagogue of Satan.   It is quite possible though that the ideas were developed separately with influence from the secularist teachings of those claiming to be experts of the mind.

At least Reform Jews do not pretend to go by scripture but rather view it as outdated and see God's word as evolving.  My original source sounded like a reform Jew as they perceive the teachings about Satan to evolve over time.

[Cindy]

Quote (Gene @ May 20 2009,12:47)

Irene……….You are right, i should be more considerate of others sorry. To tell the truth i actually like Nick even though i pounce on him at times, again sorry> peace and love to you and Goerg…………………………….gene

Gen This I like to hear, you show real sportsmanship. Tell you the truth, I did not think, that you would do apologize. My hat of to you.
With all my love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……….What if the APOSTATE Church has been teachings the DOCTRINES about DEMONS all ALONG and YOU Have just bought into it thats all. You have never proved a Demon is a being at all yet. It simply could be a mental illness of some kind and that is all. The word SATAN is NOT a BEING it is a (Descriptor) of an ADVERSARIAL attitude or SPIRIT, Even GOD can be a SATAN at times. Jodi has proved by many scriptures Her Points. IMO

peace and love…………………..gene

[kerwin]

Quote (Gene @ May 20 2009,22:28)

Kerwin……….What if the APOSTATE Church has been teachings the DOCTRINES about DEMONS all ALONG and YOU Have just bought into it thats all. You have never proved a Demon is a being at all yet. It simply could be a mental illness of some kind and that is all. The word SATAN is NOT a BEING it is a (Descriptor) of an ADVERSARIAL attitude or SPIRIT, Even GOD can be a SATAN at times. Jodi has proved by many scriptures Her Points.  IMO peace and love…………………..gene

Yes you do have a mental “illness” and it is called self-delusion.  It is common among human beings.  Still that is one reason why scripture states that all have fallen short of the glory of God.

James 2:19(KJV) reads:

Quote

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

That is what God states and since you do not agree that clearly means your teachings are of the anti-Christ.  As I pointed out it is not even debatable though it is your choice and God will hold you accountable for your choice.

[Cindy]

Quote (Gene @ May 21 2009,03:28)

Kerwin……….What if the APOSTATE Church has been teachings the DOCTRINES about DEMONS all ALONG and YOU Have just bought into it thats all. You have never proved a Demon is a being at all yet. It simply could be a mental illness of some kind and that is all. The word SATAN is NOT a BEING it is a (Descriptor) of an ADVERSARIAL attitude or SPIRIT, Even GOD can be a SATAN at times. Jodi has proved by many scriptures Her Points.  IMO peace and love…………………..gene

Gen Now you have to be kidding here, that God can be Satan. God can not look on sin. To say that is an insult to Our Heavenly Father. I and others have given so many Scriptures that Satan and the Demons are Spirit beings and are around all of us. The Apostate Church has nothing to do with it.
I really don't know why I even post to you about that, but when I see what you just said about God, my blood boils. That's all, no more.
Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……..The word (SATAN) simply means (ADVERSARY) and yes GOD can be an ADVERSARY and is at times. And while GOD does not sin, it is nonsense to say He cant look on it. GOD has seen sin since the beginning of Human Existence and perhaps even before there were Humans here. The problem here is you not seeing the WORD SATAN for what it is, A DESCRIPTOR that describes an attitude. GOD resists the Proud, (he then is an adversary to the proud then).

Peter resisted Jesus and was a SATAN (Adversary) to him. The Pharisees resisted Jesus and were also doing the work of a SATAN or DEVIL same word, they were Adversaries of Christ. Anyone can and at times are, ADVERSARIES of GOD and each other also. The word SATAN simply means ADVERSARY and can be anyone. GOD uses ADVERSARIAL Spirits to bring about His purposes, as in the case of Job and King Saul . A demon is simply a demonic Spirit (Intellect) that can be in a person, thats not a being but a Spirit or intellect. A mental condition effecting the Person. There are no spook (BEINGS) going around jumping in and out of People.

Attributing Powers to unseen beings going around doing as they will was forbidden in scripture. Even in the old testament at the point of death, and the Apostate church has revived it as it has many false teachings also. We need to come completely out of Her, not just part way. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg……………….gene

[Cindy]

Gen  What did I say in my last post to you, that's all. Do nit respond to this, you are set in your way and that's all. You have and are denying Scriptures.
Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

To all………It is obvious how Doctrines about demons have effected peoples minds,  People who buy into it have all kinds of Phobias and the reaction to this subject proves it. We are told to come out of these false teachings about demon and devils, or we would recieve these Plagues .  And the plagues are (Phobias) or fears, about being scared that devil or demons have some kind of power over our mind and lives and somehow they effect our subconscious minds. God plainly forbid that kind of pagan idolatry in Scripture. There are no spooks going around with personal powers to go into people and effect their thinking at will. People who believe that are deluded and plagued by the false teachings of the Whore Church. We are told to come out of Her that Your recieve not of HER PLAGUES, and the doctrine about demons causes, plagues in the minds of those who believe in them and there Children they teach it to.  We are all held accountable to GOD for our (OWN) actions , not the action of some spook or devil or demon. IMO

peace and love to you all…………………….gene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,17:39)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,00:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!! Hi Jodi Whats sick and twisted is to believe that YHWH brings sickness and disease on the upright and the righteous and kills their families! Can you maybe show us some other examples of the “upright and righteous” in the scriptures that the Lord killed or brought sickness and disease on? Your doctrine goes against the 1000s of scriptures that says the Lord will bless and not curse those who obey him and walk uprightly before him! The Lord said to satan… “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7 “”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job 2:3 Job walked in all the truth that he knew and in the Lords eyes he was perfect and upright. Could he still grow and did he become a better man? Of course he did! The good news is God works “all things” together for good to those that love him, even those things in which the enemies of God and man mean for harm or evil! Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil? Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason? Those are YHWH’s words. Yet you seem not to believe them? You want to point to Jobs words or the testimony of his friends in order to support your doctrine, rather than accept the words of the Lord! What does YHWH say? WJ

Hi WJ,

I have already given you examples of scriptures that show how God allows the punishment He has given to a father to affect his innocent children. Do not deny scripture that says God ALONE brings curses, and that those curses can be passed down onto generations, making children have to reap their parents mistakes.  

Life is NOT a closed system, what one person does affects others, whether it be good or bad. God brings famine, that is in HIS POWER, NO ONE ELSE. Children today are starving to death due to famine, this is all under the hand of God whether you like it or not WJ. There is not some other supernatural force out there with the same powers as God, creating famine to hurt people for malice. God allows suffering to fulfill a greater purpose. Those who suffer innocently will be greatly rewarded. Kings through greed and selfishness, not through supernatural powers, can be satans unto man oppressing them and causing them to starve. But it is YHWH alone who has control over the weather. Jesus was able to control the wind because God had given him HIS POWERS. The ONLY powers that exist supernaturally that can cause blessing and suffering come from God.

WJ, I honestly think that you need to re-read the entire book of Job. There are some key scriptures that you have either missed completely or have chosen to over look. IMO you along with so many others are so blinded by your doctrine you cannot see clear simple scripture, as well you add to what is clearly not there.

Job 1:9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `For nought is Job fearing God? 10 Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath — round about? 11 The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath — if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 12 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath [is] in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.

First I would like to make the point that angels ARE NOT, equivalent to God in knowledge or power, in mercy or righteousness. The bible makes it clear that there is only ONE being with the power to bless and curse, and that God can, through HIS HAND, and under His authority give that power over to others. I previously gave the example of the angel of God that was destroying, and God had to tell the angel ENOUGH!  We see directly from scripture, that angels are given the job of being God's eyes and ears and are to punish sinners.  Angels will punish and punish until it is YHWH's mercies that call on the angel to stop.

Job 2:3 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!' 4 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `A skin for a skin, and all that a man hath he doth give for his life. 5 Yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike unto his bone and unto his flesh — if not: unto Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 6 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.'

I'm sorry WJ, but this scripture is HARDLY proof that the adversary is an evil rebel spirit who is against God and who wants to commit malice against Job.  He is shown to be in God's presence, discussing matters over with God about Job, and he is asking for YHWH's Hand and FOLLOWING YHWH'S commands!!

Can't you people SEE the plain TEXT?

yet forth I pray THEE, THY HAND

The adversary asks God for HIS hand to strike Job. Then we see God give the adversary permission, and the adversary DOES ACCORDING TO God.

Job 6:4 For arrows of the Mighty [are] with me, Whose poison is drinking up my spirit. Terrors of God array themselves [for] me!

Job 9:21 “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life. 22 It is all one thing; Therefore I say, 'He destroys the blameless and the wicked.' 23 If the scourge slays suddenly, He laughs at the plight of the innocent. 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be?

No one finds it odd that Job and all four other people who give their concerns  in the book, ALL speak of Job's infliction as coming from God? No one finds it odd that Job has no clue as to the existence of who else might be able to inflict him?

NOTICE , Job never says, God why did you let this evil angel inflict me for no reason. He consistently contemplates why would God do this to him even though he feels he is blameless.

In the book of Job we see Job struggle with whether or not God is a righteous judge, because how could God be a righteous judge if Job is so perfect but yet he has been made to suffer.

And that is just it… was Job REALLY perfect? Perfect in what?

Are YOU PEOPLE trying to say that Job was PERFECT like YHWH?

Was Job perfect in knowledge? Was Job perfect in humility?  

Was Job punished by God for nought?

Look at
what Job says to God-

10:3 Does it seem good to You that You should oppress, That You should despise the work of Your hands, And smile on the counsel of the wicked?

God said to the adversary on behalf of Job,

”a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil.”

This is hardly PERFECTION, A GREAT MAN FOR HIS TIME, blameless and one who shunned evil, but he was ignorant of God, and when he suffered infliction he tried to put his righteousness ABOVE God's.

Job was seen as upright for what he had, for the bubble he lived in, however once infliction occurred onto his own skin, his ignorance was exposed and a dormant self-righteous attitude arouse up out of his heart.

Job 10:4 Do You have eyes of flesh? Or do You see as man sees? 5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man? Are Your years like the days of a mighty man, 6 That You should seek for my iniquity And search out my sin, 7 Although You know that I am not wicked, And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand?

Can you believe it? Job has the nerve to ask God if He has eyes of flesh. Job is comparing God to man. Can you believe it, Job accuses God of seeking injustice.

Job 10:17 You renew Your witnesses against me, And increase Your indignation toward me; Changes and war are ever with me. 18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me! 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,

Infliction comes from YHWH'S witnesses

Some here seem to want to claim that the adversary in Job is a false accuser to Job.

The adversary never says that Job was not upright, he said strike him and he will curse you.

The book of Job shows that Job upon his infliction to his flesh begins to question God's righteousness, as a matter of fact we see Job even accusing God of wrong doing and committing injustice.

In Job 10 we see Job tell God to leave him alone, and that Job seeks to have comfort from somewhere else OTHER THEN GOD.

Job is shown to be a fool, having a serious lack of knowledge about God.

I gave scripture in an earlier post of which DIRECTLY showed that it is God’s faithful agents who are His eyes and ears that roam upon the earth, and they are seen by humans such as David as being adversaries to the people. The ADVERSARY here in the book of Job is NO different, he roamed to and fro upon the earth with the job of watching over man.

Job 12:9 Who among all these does not know That the hand of the Lord has done this, 10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind? 11 Does not the ear test words And the mouth taste its food?

Job 1:11……and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath

The adversary says the infliction CAME from God’s hand, Job and his friends say it came from God’s hand, Elihu says it came from God’s hand and God says it came from God’s hand.

What more do you people want? The scriptures do NOT show that some evil rebel being had it out for Job and God decided that He would ALLOW this person to inflict Job for wicked sake.

Why does the adversary say to God, “stretch out YOUR HAND”?
Why does Job refer to his inflictor as being GOD’S witness and God Himself?

All these things show that the adversary is an agent OF God, and FOR God, not against God.

Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”

These scriptures do not prove, as WJ would like to argue, that the adversary is against God.

God says to His witness, that even though you motivated Me against Job, Job still holds to his integrity.

Some of you people are so caught up in your doctrine you cannot see the PLAIN scriptures for what they directly show.

God does not say here that He ALLOWED and evil rebel being to inflict Job, He states that the adversary moved HIM against Job, and Job passed that first test.

However we learn from reading further that the adversary was right, that Job would falter, and by the end of Job we see Job abhor himself and repent.

Job 19:5 If indeed you exalt yourselves against me, And plead my disgrace against me, 6 Know then that God has wronged me, And has surrounded me with His net. 7 “If I cry out concerning wrong, I am not heard. If I cry aloud, there is no justice.

Does God WRONG anyone?

Job 19:8 He has fenced up my way, so that I cannot pass; And He has set darkness in my paths. 9 He has stripped me of my glory, And taken the crown from my head. 10 He breaks me down on every side, And I am gone; My hope He has uprooted like a tree. 11 He has also kindled His wrath against me, And He counts me as one of His enemies. 12 His troops come together And build up their road against me; They encamp all around my tent. 13 “He has removed my brothers far from me, And my acquaintances are completely estranged from me. 14 My relatives have failed, And my close friends have forgotten me. 15 Those who dwell in my house, and my maidservants, Count me as a stranger; I am an alien in their sight. 16 I call my servant, but he gives no answer; I beg him with my mouth. 17 My breath is offensive to my wife, And I am repulsive to the children of my own body. 18 Even young children despise me; I arise, and they speak against me. 19 All my close friends abhor me, And those whom I love have turned against me. 20 My bone clings to my skin and to my flesh, And I have escaped by the skin of my teeth. 21 “Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends, For the hand of God has struck me! 22 Why do you persecute me as God does, And are not satisfied with my flesh?

Job 23:13 “But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. 14 For He performs what is appointed for me, And many such things are with Him. 15 Therefore I am terrified at His presence; When I consider this, I am afraid of Him.

Can we not see a bit of arrogance on Job’s behalf from the following?

Job 29:1 Job further continued his discourse, and said: 2 Oh, that I were as in months past, As in the days when God watched over me; 3 When His lamp shone upon my head, And when by His light I walked through darkness; 4 Just as I was in the days of my prime, When the friendly counsel of God was over my tent; 5 When the Almighty was yet with me, When my children were around me; 6 When my steps were bathed with cream, And the rock poured out rivers of oil for me!
7 “When I went out to the gate by the city, When I took my seat in the open square, 8 The young men saw me and hid, And the aged arose and stood; 9 The princes refrained from talking, And put their hand on their mouth; 10 The voice of nobles was hushed, And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth. 11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me, And when the eye saw, then it approved me; 12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out, The fatherless and the one who had no helper. 13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me, And I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy. 14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me; My justice was like a robe and a turban. 15 I was eyes to the blind, And I was feet to the lame. 16 I was a father to the poor, And I searched out the case that I did not know. 17 I broke the fangs of the wicked, And plucked the victim from his teeth.

18 “Then I said, 'I shall die in my nest, And multiply my days as the sand. 19 My root is spread out to the waters, And the dew lies all night
on my branch. 20 My glory is fresh within me, And my bow is renewed in my hand.' 21 “Men listened to me and waited, And kept silence for my counsel. 22 After my words they did not speak again, And my speech settled on them as dew. 23 They waited for me as for the rain, And they opened their mouth wide as for the spring rain. 24 If I mocked at them, they did not believe it, And the light of my countenance they did not cast down. 25 I chose the way for them, and sat as chief; So I dwelt as a king in the army, As one who comforts mourners.
As we continue to read through the book of Job, we see that Job struggles for understanding. This is  because Job believes that he is innocent of any wrong doing, and so it makes him question whether God is a righteous judge.

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God. 3 Also against his three friends his wrath was aroused, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. 4 Now because they were years older than he, Elihu had waited to speak to Job.

Job 34:33 Should He repay it according to your terms, Just because you disavow it? You must choose, and not I; Therefore speak what you know. 34 “Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: 35 'Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom.' 36 Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! 37 For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps his hands among us, And multiplies his words against God.”
From chapters 34 through 37 we see Elihu rightfully accuse Job of self-righteousness and as well Elihu stands up for God and being a righteous judge.  

Then in chapter 38 we see God Himself step in and speak with Job. By chapter 42 Job answers the Lord WITH REPENTANCE, saying that he abhors himself for uttering things that he did not understand. Job says “BUT NOW my eyes sees YOU.”

It should be noted as well that in 42 God says that Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar have not spoken right in the end about God. One can only rightfully assume that what Elihu spoke was truth, and we see that Job has spoken rightly in the end through what which he learned through his suffering and through being corrected by Elihu and God.

Man is limited, even a man's depth of righteousness is limited. Job was seen as upright, one who shunned away from evil, but this was due, as we see from scripture, only because of Job's circumstances. Change those circumstances and a man's attitude changes.

Angels were known by the Israelites as adversaries, disingenuously translated sometimes in the bible as Satan with a capitol letter. These adversaries were either correctly known as God's messengers of infliction or they were likened to FALSE GODS AND FALSE DEMONS.

When we read the entire book of Job it is evident that the men speaking in it all were under the correct understanding that Job's infliction came through God's hand according to His witness or messenger.

All those who claim that the adversary worked from his own powers, has then taken the adversary and made him into a false god, doing injustice to the ONE true God who ALONE exists with Powers.

WJ you are confused your doctrine has blinded you, you said, “Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil?

Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason?

Those are YHWH’s words.”

WJ, the adversary never said that Job was not blameless and upright. On the contrary the adversary said that Job was such but only because God had put a hedge around him.

It looked at first as if the adversary was wrong when Job was first afflicted. However, upon being inflicted onto his own flesh Job in fact began to crumble and things in him such as his ignorance and arrogance became exposed.

God knew the adversary was right, this would obviously be WHY God was incited or MOVED by the adversary to do what the adversary suggested a second time, even after the first failed.

The text never shows that the adversary is full of malice.

The adversary is shown to follow and obey the Lord, and it is because of the adversaries request that Job ends up becoming a better man.

WJ, why did after the adversary was wrong the first time did God give in a second time and follow the ideas of the adversary?

2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”

At first it appeared that Job was made to suffer for no reason, however if you CONTINUE READING the REST of the book, we can see the obvious, that the adversary incited God against Job for GOOD reason, for an important and justifiable purpose.

WJ, IMO you have slandered, become a devil to the bible and to God's messenger, the adversary in the book of Job. You say the adversary's work is a form of malice, and the one scripture you choose in your defense you cannot even read correctly. You falsely stated that the adversary accused Job of not being upright, however the adversary never said such.

Because a person incites God to do something that makes them evil?

When we try and understand it your way, IMO we make God out to be an idiot. God is going to be incited (moved, caused, motivated), by someone who is in complete error?

Your understanding WJ, creates the appearance that God can be fooled.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 03 2009,10:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,17:39) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,00:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!! Hi Jodi Whats sick and twisted is to believe that YHWH brings sickness and disease on the upright and the righteous and kills their families! Can you maybe show us some other examples of the “upright and righteous” in the scriptures that the Lord killed or brought sickness and disease on? Your doctrine goes against the 1000s of scriptures that says the Lord will bless and not curse those who obey him and walk uprightly before him! The Lord said to satan… “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7 “”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job 2:3 Job walked in all the truth that he knew and in the Lords eyes he was perfect and upright. Could he still grow and did he become a better man? Of course he did! The good news is God works “all things” together for good to those that love him, even those things in which the enemies of God and man mean for harm or evil! Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil? Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason? Those are YHWH’s words. Yet you seem not to believe them? You want to point to Jobs words or the testimony of his friends in order to support your doctrine, rather than accept the words of the Lord! What does YHWH say? WJ Hi WJ, I have already given you examples of scriptures that show how God allows the punishment He has given to a father to affect his innocent children. Do not deny scripture that says God ALONE brings curses, and that those curses can be passed down onto generations, making children have to reap their parents mistakes.   Life is NOT a closed system, what one person does affects others, whether it be good or bad. God brings famine, that is in HIS POWER, NO ONE ELSE. Children today are starving to death due to famine, this is all under the hand of God whether you like it or not WJ. There is not some other supernatural force out there with the same powers as God, creating famine to hurt people for malice. God allows suffering to fulfill a greater purpose. Those who suffer innocently will be greatly rewarded. Kings through greed and selfishness, not through supernatural powers, can be satans unto man oppressing them and causing them to starve. But it is YHWH alone who has control over the weather. Jesus was able to control the wind because God had given him HIS POWERS. The ONLY powers that exist supernaturally that can cause blessing and suffering come from God. WJ, I honestly think that you need to re-read the entire book of Job. There are some key scriptures that you have either missed completely or have chosen to over look. IMO you along with so many others are so blinded by your doctrine you cannot see clear simple scripture, as well you add to what is clearly not there. Job 1:9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `For nought is Job fearing God? 10 Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath — round about? 11 The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath — if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 12 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath [is] in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah. First I would like to make the point that angels ARE NOT, equivalent to God in knowledge or power, in mercy or righteousness. The bible makes it clear that there is only ONE being with the power to bless and curse, and that God can, through HIS HAND, and under His authority give that power over to others. I previously gave the example of the angel of God that was destroying, and God had to tell the angel ENOUGH!  We see directly from scripture, that angels are given the job of being God's eyes and ears and are to punish sinners.  Angels will punish and punish until it is YHWH's mercies that call on the angel to stop. Job 2:3 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!' 4 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `A skin for a skin, and all that a man hath he doth give for his life. 5 Yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike unto his bone and unto his flesh — if not: unto Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 6 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.' I'm sorry WJ, but this scripture is HARDLY proof that the adversary is an evil rebel spirit who is against God and who wants to commit malice against Job.  He is shown to be in God's presence, discussing matters over with God about Job, and he is asking for YHWH's Hand and FOLLOWING YHWH'S commands!! Can't you people SEE the plain TEXT? yet forth I pray THEE, THY HAND The adversary asks God for HIS hand to strike Job. Then we see God give the adversary permission, and the adversary DOES ACCORDING TO God. Job 6:4 For arrows of the Mighty [are] with me, Whose poison is drinking up my spirit. Terrors of God array themselves [for] me! Job 9:21 “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life. 22 It is all one thing; Therefore I say, 'He destroys the blameless and the wicked.' 23 If the scourge slays suddenly, He laughs at the plight of the innocent. 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be? No one finds it odd that Job and all four other people who give their concerns  in the book, ALL speak of Job's infliction as coming from God? No one finds it odd that Job has no clue as to the existence of who else might be able to inflict him? NOTICE , Job never says, God why did you let this evil angel inflict me for no reason. He consistently contemplates why would God do this to him even though he feels he is blameless. In the book of Job we see Job struggle with whether or not God is a righteous judge, because how could God be a righteous judge if Job is so perfect but yet he has been made to suffer. And that is just it… was Job REALLY p erfect? Perfect in what? Are YOU PEOPLE trying to say that Job was PERFECT like YHWH? Was Job perfect in knowledge? Was Job perfect in humility?   Was Job punished by God for nought? Look at what Job says to God- 10:3 Does it seem good to You that You should oppress, That You should despise the work of Your hands, And smile on the counsel of the wicked? God said to the adversary on behalf of Job, ”a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil.” This is hardly PERFECTION, A GREAT MAN FOR HIS TIME, blameless and one who shunned evil, but he was ignorant of God, and when he suffered infliction he tried to put his righteousness ABOVE God's. Job was seen as upright for what he had, for the bubble he lived in, however once infliction occurred onto his own skin, his ignorance was exposed and a dormant self-righteous attitude arouse up out of his heart. Job 10:4 Do You have eyes of flesh? Or do You see as man sees? 5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man? Are Your years like the days of a mighty man, 6 That You should seek for my iniquity And search out my sin, 7 Although You know that I am not wicked, And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand? Can you believe it? Job has the nerve to ask God if He has eyes of flesh. Job is comparing God to man. Can you believe it, Job accuses God of seeking injustice. Job 10:17 You renew Your witnesses against me, And increase Your indignation toward me; Changes and war are ever with me. 18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me! 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort, Infliction comes from YHWH'S witnesses Some here seem to want to claim that the adversary in Job is a false accuser to Job. The adversary never says that Job was not upright, he said strike him and he will curse you. The book of Job shows that Job upon his infliction to his flesh begins to question God's righteousness, as a matter of fact we see Job even accusing God of wrong doing and committing injustice. In Job 10 we see Job tell God to leave him alone, and that Job seeks to have comfort from somewhere else OTHER THEN GOD. Job is shown to be a fool, having a serious lack of knowledge about God. I gave scripture in an earlier post of which DIRECTLY showed that it is God’s faithful agents who are His eyes and ears that roam upon the earth, and they are seen by humans such as David as being adversaries to the people. The ADVERSARY here in the book of Job is NO different, he roamed to and fro upon the earth with the job of watching over man. Job 12:9 Who among all these does not know That the hand of the Lord has done this, 10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind? 11 Does not the ear test words And the mouth taste its food? Job 1:11……and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath The adversary says the infliction CAME from God’s hand, Job and his friends say it came from God’s hand, Elihu says it came from God’s hand and God says it came from God’s hand. What more do you people want? The scriptures do NOT show that some evil rebel being had it out for Job and God decided that He would ALLOW this person to inflict Job for wicked sake. Why does the adversary say to God, “stretch out YOUR HAND”? Why does Job refer to his inflictor as being GOD’S witness and God Himself? All these things show that the adversary is an agent OF God, and FOR God, not against God. Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” These scriptures do not prove, as WJ would like to argue, that the adversary is against God. God says to His witness, that even though you motivated Me against Job, Job still holds to his integrity. Some of you people are so caught up in your doctrine you cannot see the PLAIN scriptures for what they directly show. God does not say here that He ALLOWED and evil rebel being to inflict Job, He states that the adversary moved HIM against Job, and Job passed that first test. However we learn from reading further that the adversary was right, that Job would falter, and by the end of Job we see Job abhor himself and repent. Job 19:5 If indeed you exalt yourselves against me, And plead my disgrace against me, 6 Know then that God has wronged me, And has surrounded me with His net. 7 “If I cry out concerning wrong, I am not heard. If I cry aloud, there is no justice. Does God WRONG anyone? Job 19:8 He has fenced up my way, so that I cannot pass; And He has set darkness in my paths. 9 He has stripped me of my glory, And taken the crown from my head. 10 He breaks me down on every side, And I am gone; My hope He has uprooted like a tree. 11 He has also kindled His wrath against me, And He counts me as one of His enemies. 12 His troops come together And build up their road against me; They encamp all around my tent. 13 “He has removed my brothers far from me, And my acquaintances are completely estranged from me. 14 My relatives have failed, And my close friends have forgotten me. 15 Those who dwell in my house, and my maidservants, Count me as a stranger; I am an alien in their sight. 16 I call my servant, but he gives no answer; I beg him with my mouth. 17 My breath is offensive to my wife, And I am repulsive to the children of my own body. 18 Even young children despise me; I arise, and they speak against me. 19 All my close friends abhor me, And those whom I love have turned against me. 20 My bone clings to my skin and to my flesh, And I have escaped by the skin of my teeth. 21 “Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends, For the hand of God has struck me! 22 Why do you persecute me as God does, And are not satisfied with my flesh? Job 23:13 “But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. 14 For He performs what is appointed for me, And many such things are with Him. 15 Therefore I am terrified at His presence; When I consider this, I am afraid of Him. Can we not see a bit of arrogance on Job’s behalf from the following? Job 29:1 Job further continued his discourse, and said: 2 Oh, that I were as in months past, As in the days when God watched over me; 3 When His lamp shone upon my head, And when by His light I walked through darkness; 4 Just as I was in the days of my prime, When the friendly counsel of God was over my tent; 5 When the Almighty was yet with me, When my children were around me; 6 When my steps were bathed with cream, And the rock poured out rivers of oil for me! 7 “When I went out to the gate by the city, When I took my seat in the open square, 8 The young men saw me and hid, And the aged arose and stood; 9 The princes refrained from talking, And put their hand on their mouth; 10 The voice of nobles was hushed, And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth. 11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me, And when the eye saw, then it approved me; 12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out, The fatherless and the one who had no helper. 13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me, And I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy. 14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me; My justice was like a robe and a turban. 15 I was eyes to the blind, And I was feet to the lame. 16 I was a father to the poor, And I searched out the case that I did not know. 17 I br oke the fangs of the wicked, And plucked the victim from his teeth. 18 “Then I said, 'I shall die in my nest, And multiply my days as the sand. 19 My root is spread out to the waters, And the dew lies all night on my branch. 20 My glory is fresh within me, And my bow is renewed in my hand.' 21 “Men listened to me and waited, And kept silence for my counsel. 22 After my words they did not speak again, And my speech settled on them as dew. 23 They waited for me as for the rain, And they opened their mouth wide as for the spring rain. 24 If I mocked at them, they did not believe it, And the light of my countenance they did not cast down. 25 I chose the way for them, and sat as chief; So I dwelt as a king in the army, As one who comforts mourners. As we continue to read through the book of Job, we see that Job struggles for understanding. This is  because Job believes that he is innocent of any wrong doing, and so it makes him question whether God is a righteous judge. Job 32:1 So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God. 3 Also against his three friends his wrath was aroused, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. 4 Now because they were years older than he, Elihu had waited to speak to Job. Job 34:33 Should He repay it according to your terms, Just because you disavow it? You must choose, and not I; Therefore speak what you know. 34 “Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: 35 'Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom.' 36 Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! 37 For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps his hands among us, And multiplies his words against God.” From chapters 34 through 37 we see Elihu rightfully accuse Job of self-righteousness and as well Elihu stands up for God and being a righteous judge.   Then in chapter 38 we see God Himself step in and speak with Job. By chapter 42 Job answers the Lord WITH REPENTANCE, saying that he abhors himself for uttering things that he did not understand. Job says “BUT NOW my eyes sees YOU.” It should be noted as well that in 42 God says that Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar have not spoken right in the end about God. One can only rightfully assume that what Elihu spoke was truth, and we see that Job has spoken rightly in the end through what which he learned through his suffering and through being corrected by Elihu and God. Man is limited, even a man's depth of righteousness is limited. Job was seen as upright, one who shunned away from evil, but this was due, as we see from scripture, only because of Job's circumstances. Change those circumstances and a man's attitude changes. Angels were known by the Israelites as adversaries, disingenuously translated sometimes in the bible as Satan with a capitol letter. These adversaries were either correctly known as God's messengers of infliction or they were likened to FALSE GODS AND FALSE DEMONS. When we read the entire book of Job it is evident that the men speaking in it all were under the correct understanding that Job's infliction came through God's hand according to His witness or messenger. All those who claim that the adversary worked from his own powers, has then taken the adversary and made him into a false god, doing injustice to the ONE true God who ALONE exists with Powers. WJ you are confused your doctrine has blinded you, you said, “Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil? Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason? Those are YHWH’s words.” WJ, the adversary never said that Job was not blameless and upright. On the contrary the adversary said that Job was such but only because God had put a hedge around him. It looked at first as if the adversary was wrong when Job was first afflicted. However, upon being inflicted onto his own flesh Job in fact began to crumble and things in him such as his ignorance and arrogance became exposed. God knew the adversary was right, this would obviously be WHY God was incited or MOVED by the adversary to do what the adversary suggested a second time, even after the first failed. The text never shows that the adversary is full of malice. The adversary is shown to follow and obey the Lord, and it is because of the adversaries request that Job ends up becoming a better man. WJ, why did after the adversary was wrong the first time did God give in a second time and follow the ideas of the adversary? 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” At first it appeared that Job was made to suffer for no reason, however if you CONTINUE READING the REST of the book, we can see the obvious, that the adversary incited God against Job for GOOD reason, for an important and justifiable purpose. WJ, IMO you have slandered, become a devil to the bible and to God's messenger, the adversary in the book of Job. You say the adversary's work is a form of malice, and the one scripture you choose in your defense you cannot even read correctly. You falsely stated that the adversary accused Job of not being upright, however the adversary never said such. Because a person incites God to do something that makes them evil? When we try and understand it your way, IMO we make God out to be an idiot. God is going to be incited (moved, caused, motivated), by someone who is in complete error? Your understanding WJ, creates the appearance that God can be fooled.

Satan is man's avowed enemy. God cannot be tempted with evil. God made it clear in the end that JOB was correct in what he was saying about God.

God said clearly that He cannot be judged because He does whatever He wants to do as He sees fit.

Satan in know way is acting on behalf of God.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2009,17:42)

Gene wrote: Quote There is no end to what you can find out there. But Jodi gave (MANY) scriptures to support Her findings and i personally agree with her. She gave her take on many scriptures and her take agreed with her which is hardly surprising. Scripture on the other hand clearly states demons exist and that they believe in God and because of that belief tremble in fear. Scripture also clearly states that Jesus exercised demons. Scripture also clearly states that Satan struck Job with many trials and tribulations. Scripture also clearly states that Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert. Scripture also clearly states that the arch Angel Michael had a disagreement with Satan over the body of Mosses. So in short you and Jodi Lee are clearly teaching a false doctrine and all false teachings come from the devil.  In Jodi's case though her false teaching appears to be similar to one I heard from a Jew and thus I accused her of listening to the teachings of the synagogue of Satan.   It is quite possible though that the ideas were developed separately with influence from the secularist teachings of those claiming to be experts of the mind. At least Reform Jews do not pretend to go by scripture but rather view it as outdated and see God's word as evolving.  My original source sounded like a reform Jew as they perceive the teachings about Satan to evolve over time.

Hi Kerwin,

You need to use scripture to back up your understanding of who and what the word satan means.

You need to give an explanation as to how satan can be directly called men, God and His messengers, but then is a proper name for one specific being.

Why don't you be a little more specific and show what scriptures I have misunderstood, and explain how your understanding is the truth?

You said, “scripture ON THE OTHER HAND clearly states……. as if I had denied those scriptures.

I have NEVER denied any of those scriptures. We have gone through this before, Gene and I don't deny the scriptures we define words differently then you do.  I have shown how we define them according to how the scriptures define them and made the point that you and others define them according to pagan superstitions.

Why don't you use scripture to prove your definitions? I'd like to see how that turns out!

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
God works through Christ.
Christ works through his brothers.
Satan works through his control of his minions.

What they do for him is attributed to that dominion.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 03 2009,10:55)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 03 2009,10:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,17:39) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,00:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!! Hi Jodi Whats sick and twisted is to believe that YHWH brings sickness and disease on the upright and the righteous and kills their families! Can you maybe show us some other examples of the “upright and righteous” in the scriptures that the Lord killed or brought sickness and disease on? Your doctrine goes against the 1000s of scriptures that says the Lord will bless and not curse those who obey him and walk uprightly before him! The Lord said to satan… “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7 “”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job 2:3 Job walked in all the truth that he knew and in the Lords eyes he was perfect and upright. Could he still grow and did he become a better man? Of course he did! The good news is God works “all things” together for good to those that love him, even those things in which the enemies of God and man mean for harm or evil! Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil? Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason? Those are YHWH’s words. Yet you seem not to believe them? You want to point to Jobs words or the testimony of his friends in order to support your doctrine, rather than accept the words of the Lord! What does YHWH say? WJ Hi WJ, I have already given you examples of scriptures that show how God allows the punishment He has given to a father to affect his innocent children. Do not deny scripture that says God ALONE brings curses, and that those curses can be passed down onto generations, making children have to reap their parents mistakes.   Life is NOT a closed system, what one person does affects others, whether it be good or bad. God brings famine, that is in HIS POWER, NO ONE ELSE. Children today are starving to death due to famine, this is all under the hand of God whether you like it or not WJ. There is not some other supernatural force out there with the same powers as God, creating famine to hurt people for malice. God allows suffering to fulfill a greater purpose. Those who suffer innocently will be greatly rewarded. Kings through greed and selfishness, not through supernatural powers, can be satans unto man oppressing them and causing them to starve. But it is YHWH alone who has control over the weather. Jesus was able to control the wind because God had given him HIS POWERS. The ONLY powers that exist supernaturally that can cause blessing and suffering come from God. WJ, I honestly think that you need to re-read the entire book of Job. There are some key scriptures that you have either missed completely or have chosen to over look. IMO you along with so many others are so blinded by your doctrine you cannot see clear simple scripture, as well you add to what is clearly not there. Job 1:9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `For nought is Job fearing God? 10 Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath — round about? 11 The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath — if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 12 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath [is] in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah. First I would like to make the point that angels ARE NOT, equivalent to God in knowledge or power, in mercy or righteousness. The bible makes it clear that there is only ONE being with the power to bless and curse, and that God can, through HIS HAND, and under His authority give that power over to others. I previously gave the example of the angel of God that was destroying, and God had to tell the angel ENOUGH!  We see directly from scripture, that angels are given the job of being God's eyes and ears and are to punish sinners.  Angels will punish and punish until it is YHWH's mercies that call on the angel to stop. Job 2:3 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!' 4 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `A skin for a skin, and all that a man hath he doth give for his life. 5 Yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike unto his bone and unto his flesh — if not: unto Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 6 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.' I'm sorry WJ, but this scripture is HARDLY proof that the adversary is an evil rebel spirit who is against God and who wants to commit malice against Job.  He is shown to be in God's presence, discussing matters over with God about Job, and he is asking for YHWH's Hand and FOLLOWING YHWH'S commands!! Can't you people SEE the plain TEXT? yet forth I pray THEE, THY HAND The adversary asks God for HIS hand to strike Job. Then we see God give the adversary permission, and the adversary DOES ACCORDING TO God. Job 6:4 For arrows of the Mighty [are] with me, Whose poison is drinking up my spirit. Terrors of God array themselves [for] me! Job 9:21 “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life. 22 It is all one thing; Therefore I say, 'He destroys the blameless and the wicked.' 23 If the scourge slays suddenly, He laughs at the plight of the innocent. 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be? No one finds it odd that Job and all four other people who give their concerns  in the book, ALL speak of Job's infliction as coming from God? No one finds it odd that Job has no clue as to the existence of who else might be able to inflict him? NOTICE , Job never says, God why did you let this evil angel inflict me for no reason. He consistently contemplates why would God do this to him even though he feels he is blameless. In th e book of Job we see Job struggle with whether or not God is a righteous judge, because how could God be a righteous judge if Job is so perfect but yet he has been made to suffer. And that is just it… was Job REALLY perfect? Perfect in what? Are YOU PEOPLE trying to say that Job was PERFECT like YHWH? Was Job perfect in knowledge? Was Job perfect in humility?   Was Job punished by God for nought? Look at what Job says to God- 10:3 Does it seem good to You that You should oppress, That You should despise the work of Your hands, And smile on the counsel of the wicked? God said to the adversary on behalf of Job, ”a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil.” This is hardly PERFECTION, A GREAT MAN FOR HIS TIME, blameless and one who shunned evil, but he was ignorant of God, and when he suffered infliction he tried to put his righteousness ABOVE God's. Job was seen as upright for what he had, for the bubble he lived in, however once infliction occurred onto his own skin, his ignorance was exposed and a dormant self-righteous attitude arouse up out of his heart. Job 10:4 Do You have eyes of flesh? Or do You see as man sees? 5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man? Are Your years like the days of a mighty man, 6 That You should seek for my iniquity And search out my sin, 7 Although You know that I am not wicked, And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand? Can you believe it? Job has the nerve to ask God if He has eyes of flesh. Job is comparing God to man. Can you believe it, Job accuses God of seeking injustice. Job 10:17 You renew Your witnesses against me, And increase Your indignation toward me; Changes and war are ever with me. 18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me! 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort, Infliction comes from YHWH'S witnesses Some here seem to want to claim that the adversary in Job is a false accuser to Job. The adversary never says that Job was not upright, he said strike him and he will curse you. The book of Job shows that Job upon his infliction to his flesh begins to question God's righteousness, as a matter of fact we see Job even accusing God of wrong doing and committing injustice. In Job 10 we see Job tell God to leave him alone, and that Job seeks to have comfort from somewhere else OTHER THEN GOD. Job is shown to be a fool, having a serious lack of knowledge about God. I gave scripture in an earlier post of which DIRECTLY showed that it is God’s faithful agents who are His eyes and ears that roam upon the earth, and they are seen by humans such as David as being adversaries to the people. The ADVERSARY here in the book of Job is NO different, he roamed to and fro upon the earth with the job of watching over man. Job 12:9 Who among all these does not know That the hand of the Lord has done this, 10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind? 11 Does not the ear test words And the mouth taste its food? Job 1:11……and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath The adversary says the infliction CAME from God’s hand, Job and his friends say it came from God’s hand, Elihu says it came from God’s hand and God says it came from God’s hand. What more do you people want? The scriptures do NOT show that some evil rebel being had it out for Job and God decided that He would ALLOW this person to inflict Job for wicked sake. Why does the adversary say to God, “stretch out YOUR HAND”? Why does Job refer to his inflictor as being GOD’S witness and God Himself? All these things show that the adversary is an agent OF God, and FOR God, not against God. Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” These scriptures do not prove, as WJ would like to argue, that the adversary is against God. God says to His witness, that even though you motivated Me against Job, Job still holds to his integrity. Some of you people are so caught up in your doctrine you cannot see the PLAIN scriptures for what they directly show. God does not say here that He ALLOWED and evil rebel being to inflict Job, He states that the adversary moved HIM against Job, and Job passed that first test. However we learn from reading further that the adversary was right, that Job would falter, and by the end of Job we see Job abhor himself and repent. Job 19:5 If indeed you exalt yourselves against me, And plead my disgrace against me, 6 Know then that God has wronged me, And has surrounded me with His net. 7 “If I cry out concerning wrong, I am not heard. If I cry aloud, there is no justice. Does God WRONG anyone? Job 19:8 He has fenced up my way, so that I cannot pass; And He has set darkness in my paths. 9 He has stripped me of my glory, And taken the crown from my head. 10 He breaks me down on every side, And I am gone; My hope He has uprooted like a tree. 11 He has also kindled His wrath against me, And He counts me as one of His enemies. 12 His troops come together And build up their road against me; They encamp all around my tent. 13 “He has removed my brothers far from me, And my acquaintances are completely estranged from me. 14 My relatives have failed, And my close friends have forgotten me. 15 Those who dwell in my house, and my maidservants, Count me as a stranger; I am an alien in their sight. 16 I call my servant, but he gives no answer; I beg him with my mouth. 17 My breath is offensive to my wife, And I am repulsive to the children of my own body. 18 Even young children despise me; I arise, and they speak against me. 19 All my close friends abhor me, And those whom I love have turned against me. 20 My bone clings to my skin and to my flesh, And I have escaped by the skin of my teeth. 21 “Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends, For the hand of God has struck me! 22 Why do you persecute me as God does, And are not satisfied with my flesh? Job 23:13 “But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. 14 For He performs what is appointed for me, And many such things are with Him. 15 Therefore I am terrified at His presence; When I consider this, I am afraid of Him. Can we not see a bit of arrogance on Job’s behalf from the following? Job 29:1 Job further continued his discourse, and said: 2 Oh, that I were as in months past, As in the days when God watched over me; 3 When His lamp shone upon my head, And when by His light I walked through darkness; 4 Just as I was in the days of my prime, When the friendly counsel of God was over my tent; 5 When the Almighty was yet with me, When my children were around me; 6 When my steps were bathed with cream, And the rock poured out rivers of oil for me! 7 “When I went out to the gate by the city, When I took my seat in the open square, 8 The young men saw me and hid, And the aged arose and stood; 9 The princes refrained from talking, And put their hand on their mouth; 10 The voice of nobles was hushed, And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth. 11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me, And when the eye saw, then it approved me; 12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out, The fatherless and the one who had no helper. 13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me, And I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy. 14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me; My justice was like a robe and a turban. 15 I was eyes to the blind, And I was feet to the lame. 16 I was a father to the poor, And I searched out the case that I did not know. 17 I broke the fangs of the wicked, And plucked the victim from his teeth. 18 “Then I said, 'I shall die in my nest, And multiply my days as the sand. 19 My root is spread out to the waters, And the dew lies all night on my branch. 20 My glory is fresh within me, And my bow is renewed in my hand.' 21 “Men listened to me and waited, And kept silence for my counsel. 22 After my words they did not speak again, And my speech settled on them as dew. 23 They waited for me as for the rain, And they opened their mouth wide as for the spring rain. 24 If I mocked at them, they did not believe it, And the light of my countenance they did not cast down. 25 I chose the way for them, and sat as chief; So I dwelt as a king in the army, As one who comforts mourners. As we continue to read through the book of Job, we see that Job struggles for understanding. This is  because Job believes that he is innocent of any wrong doing, and so it makes him question whether God is a righteous judge. Job 32:1 So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God. 3 Also against his three friends his wrath was aroused, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. 4 Now because they were years older than he, Elihu had waited to speak to Job. Job 34:33 Should He repay it according to your terms, Just because you disavow it? You must choose, and not I; Therefore speak what you know. 34 “Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: 35 'Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom.' 36 Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! 37 For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps his hands among us, And multiplies his words against God.” From chapters 34 through 37 we see Elihu rightfully accuse Job of self-righteousness and as well Elihu stands up for God and being a righteous judge.   Then in chapter 38 we see God Himself step in and speak with Job. By chapter 42 Job answers the Lord WITH REPENTANCE, saying that he abhors himself for uttering things that he did not understand. Job says “BUT NOW my eyes sees YOU.” It should be noted as well that in 42 God says that Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar have not spoken right in the end about God. One can only rightfully assume that what Elihu spoke was truth, and we see that Job has spoken rightly in the end through what which he learned through his suffering and through being corrected by Elihu and God. Man is limited, even a man's depth of righteousness is limited. Job was seen as upright, one who shunned away from evil, but this was due, as we see from scripture, only because of Job's circumstances. Change those circumstances and a man's attitude changes. Angels were known by the Israelites as adversaries, disingenuously translated sometimes in the bible as Satan with a capitol letter. These adversaries were either correctly known as God's messengers of infliction or they were likened to FALSE GODS AND FALSE DEMONS. When we read the entire book of Job it is evident that the men speaking in it all were under the correct understanding that Job's infliction came through God's hand according to His witness or messenger. All those who claim that the adversary worked from his own powers, has then taken the adversary and made him into a false god, doing injustice to the ONE true God who ALONE exists with Powers. WJ you are confused your doctrine has blinded you, you said, “Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil? Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason? Those are YHWH’s words.” WJ, the adversary never said that Job was not blameless and upright. On the contrary the adversary said that Job was such but only because God had put a hedge around him. It looked at first as if the adversary was wrong when Job was first afflicted. However, upon being inflicted onto his own flesh Job in fact began to crumble and things in him such as his ignorance and arrogance became exposed. God knew the adversary was right, this would obviously be WHY God was incited or MOVED by the adversary to do what the adversary suggested a second time, even after the first failed. The text never shows that the adversary is full of malice. The adversary is shown to follow and obey the Lord, and it is because of the adversaries request that Job ends up becoming a better man. WJ, why did after the adversary was wrong the first time did God give in a second time and follow the ideas of the adversary? 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” At first it appeared that Job was made to suffer for no reason, however if you CONTINUE READING the REST of the book, we can see the obvious, that the adversary incited God against Job for GOOD reason, for an important and justifiable purpose. WJ, IMO you have slandered, become a devil to the bible and to God's messenger, the adversary in the book of Job. You say the adversary's work is a form of malice, and the one scripture you choose in your defense you cannot even read correctly. You falsely stated that the adversary accused Job of not being upright, however the adversary never said such. Because a person incites God to do something that makes them evil? When we try and understand it your way, IMO we make God out to be an idiot. God is going to be incited (moved, caused, motivated), by someone who is in complete error? Your understanding WJ, creates the appearance that God can be fooled. Satan is man's avowed enemy. God cannot be tempted with evil. God made it clear in the end that JOB was correct in what he was saying about God. God said clearly that He cannot be judged because He does whatever He wants to do as He sees fit. Satan in know way is acting on behalf of God.

You need to go read what Elihu said in the book of Job and what God then said after and then what Job said about himself, that he was a fool who needed to REPENT.

You need to use proper context when forming your understanding.

God told Job, “who is this who darkens my council by words without knowledge?

God told Job, “shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it.”

Then Job answered and said, ” Behold I am vile.”

It would appear as if you need to read the book of Job again. God made it apparent that Job needed some work, that Job was ignorant and self righteous.

The book makes it clear that Job learned and through his repentance God could say that Job had done right and that his words now are right by God.

Satan in the bible is referred to as being God Himself and His messengers. God is a righteous satan, working for the good. Man can be a malice satan. I argue from scripture that there does not exist a satan of malice with supern
atural powers, to identify a satan in the bible as such is to create a false god.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 03 2009,11:27)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 03 2009,10:55) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 03 2009,10:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,17:39) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,00:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!! Hi Jodi Whats sick and twisted is to believe that YHWH brings sickness and disease on the upright and the righteous and kills their families! Can you maybe show us some other examples of the “upright and righteous” in the scriptures that the Lord killed or brought sickness and disease on? Your doctrine goes against the 1000s of scriptures that says the Lord will bless and not curse those who obey him and walk uprightly before him! The Lord said to satan… “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7 “”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job 2:3 Job walked in all the truth that he knew and in the Lords eyes he was perfect and upright. Could he still grow and did he become a better man? Of course he did! The good news is God works “all things” together for good to those that love him, even those things in which the enemies of God and man mean for harm or evil! Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil? Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason? Those are YHWH’s words. Yet you seem not to believe them? You want to point to Jobs words or the testimony of his friends in order to support your doctrine, rather than accept the words of the Lord! What does YHWH say? WJ Hi WJ, I have already given you examples of scriptures that show how God allows the punishment He has given to a father to affect his innocent children. Do not deny scripture that says God ALONE brings curses, and that those curses can be passed down onto generations, making children have to reap their parents mistakes.   Life is NOT a closed system, what one person does affects others, whether it be good or bad. God brings famine, that is in HIS POWER, NO ONE ELSE. Children today are starving to death due to famine, this is all under the hand of God whether you like it or not WJ. There is not some other supernatural force out there with the same powers as God, creating famine to hurt people for malice. God allows suffering to fulfill a greater purpose. Those who suffer innocently will be greatly rewarded. Kings through greed and selfishness, not through supernatural powers, can be satans unto man oppressing them and causing them to starve. But it is YHWH alone who has control over the weather. Jesus was able to control the wind because God had given him HIS POWERS. The ONLY powers that exist supernaturally that can cause blessing and suffering come from God. WJ, I honestly think that you need to re-read the entire book of Job. There are some key scriptures that you have either missed completely or have chosen to over look. IMO you along with so many others are so blinded by your doctrine you cannot see clear simple scripture, as well you add to what is clearly not there. Job 1:9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `For nought is Job fearing God? 10 Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath — round about? 11 The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath — if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 12 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath [is] in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah. First I would like to make the point that angels ARE NOT, equivalent to God in knowledge or power, in mercy or righteousness. The bible makes it clear that there is only ONE being with the power to bless and curse, and that God can, through HIS HAND, and under His authority give that power over to others. I previously gave the example of the angel of God that was destroying, and God had to tell the angel ENOUGH!  We see directly from scripture, that angels are given the job of being God's eyes and ears and are to punish sinners.  Angels will punish and punish until it is YHWH's mercies that call on the angel to stop. Job 2:3 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!' 4 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `A skin for a skin, and all that a man hath he doth give for his life. 5 Yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike unto his bone and unto his flesh — if not: unto Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 6 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.' I'm sorry WJ, but this scripture is HARDLY proof that the adversary is an evil rebel spirit who is against God and who wants to commit malice against Job.  He is shown to be in God's presence, discussing matters over with God about Job, and he is asking for YHWH's Hand and FOLLOWING YHWH'S commands!! Can't you people SEE the plain TEXT? yet forth I pray THEE, THY HAND The adversary asks God for HIS hand to strike Job. Then we see God give the adversary permission, and the adversary DOES ACCORDING TO God. Job 6:4 For arrows of the Mighty [are] with me, Whose poison is drinking up my spirit. Terrors of God array themselves [for] me! Job 9:21 “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life. 22 It is all one thing; Therefore I say, 'He destroys the blameless and the wicked.' 23 If the scourge slays suddenly, He laughs at the plight of the innocent. 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be? No one finds it odd that Job and all four other people who give their concerns  in the book, ALL speak of Job's infliction as coming from God? No one finds it odd that Job has no clue as to the existence of who else might be a ble to inflict him? NOTICE , Job never says, God why did you let this evil angel inflict me for no reason. He consistently contemplates why would God do this to him even though he feels he is blameless. In the book of Job we see Job struggle with whether or not God is a righteous judge, because how could God be a righteous judge if Job is so perfect but yet he has been made to suffer. And that is just it… was Job REALLY perfect? Perfect in what? Are YOU PEOPLE trying to say that Job was PERFECT like YHWH? Was Job perfect in knowledge? Was Job perfect in humility?   Was Job punished by God for nought? Look at what Job says to God- 10:3 Does it seem good to You that You should oppress, That You should despise the work of Your hands, And smile on the counsel of the wicked? God said to the adversary on behalf of Job, ”a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil.” This is hardly PERFECTION, A GREAT MAN FOR HIS TIME, blameless and one who shunned evil, but he was ignorant of God, and when he suffered infliction he tried to put his righteousness ABOVE God's. Job was seen as upright for what he had, for the bubble he lived in, however once infliction occurred onto his own skin, his ignorance was exposed and a dormant self-righteous attitude arouse up out of his heart. Job 10:4 Do You have eyes of flesh? Or do You see as man sees? 5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man? Are Your years like the days of a mighty man, 6 That You should seek for my iniquity And search out my sin, 7 Although You know that I am not wicked, And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand? Can you believe it? Job has the nerve to ask God if He has eyes of flesh. Job is comparing God to man. Can you believe it, Job accuses God of seeking injustice. Job 10:17 You renew Your witnesses against me, And increase Your indignation toward me; Changes and war are ever with me. 18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me! 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort, Infliction comes from YHWH'S witnesses Some here seem to want to claim that the adversary in Job is a false accuser to Job. The adversary never says that Job was not upright, he said strike him and he will curse you. The book of Job shows that Job upon his infliction to his flesh begins to question God's righteousness, as a matter of fact we see Job even accusing God of wrong doing and committing injustice. In Job 10 we see Job tell God to leave him alone, and that Job seeks to have comfort from somewhere else OTHER THEN GOD. Job is shown to be a fool, having a serious lack of knowledge about God. I gave scripture in an earlier post of which DIRECTLY showed that it is God’s faithful agents who are His eyes and ears that roam upon the earth, and they are seen by humans such as David as being adversaries to the people. The ADVERSARY here in the book of Job is NO different, he roamed to and fro upon the earth with the job of watching over man. Job 12:9 Who among all these does not know That the hand of the Lord has done this, 10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind? 11 Does not the ear test words And the mouth taste its food? Job 1:11……and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath The adversary says the infliction CAME from God’s hand, Job and his friends say it came from God’s hand, Elihu says it came from God’s hand and God says it came from God’s hand. What more do you people want? The scriptures do NOT show that some evil rebel being had it out for Job and God decided that He would ALLOW this person to inflict Job for wicked sake. Why does the adversary say to God, “stretch out YOUR HAND”? Why does Job refer to his inflictor as being GOD’S witness and God Himself? All these things show that the adversary is an agent OF God, and FOR God, not against God. Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” These scriptures do not prove, as WJ would like to argue, that the adversary is against God. God says to His witness, that even though you motivated Me against Job, Job still holds to his integrity. Some of you people are so caught up in your doctrine you cannot see the PLAIN scriptures for what they directly show. God does not say here that He ALLOWED and evil rebel being to inflict Job, He states that the adversary moved HIM against Job, and Job passed that first test. However we learn from reading further that the adversary was right, that Job would falter, and by the end of Job we see Job abhor himself and repent. Job 19:5 If indeed you exalt yourselves against me, And plead my disgrace against me, 6 Know then that God has wronged me, And has surrounded me with His net. 7 “If I cry out concerning wrong, I am not heard. If I cry aloud, there is no justice. Does God WRONG anyone? Job 19:8 He has fenced up my way, so that I cannot pass; And He has set darkness in my paths. 9 He has stripped me of my glory, And taken the crown from my head. 10 He breaks me down on every side, And I am gone; My hope He has uprooted like a tree. 11 He has also kindled His wrath against me, And He counts me as one of His enemies. 12 His troops come together And build up their road against me; They encamp all around my tent. 13 “He has removed my brothers far from me, And my acquaintances are completely estranged from me. 14 My relatives have failed, And my close friends have forgotten me. 15 Those who dwell in my house, and my maidservants, Count me as a stranger; I am an alien in their sight. 16 I call my servant, but he gives no answer; I beg him with my mouth. 17 My breath is offensive to my wife, And I am repulsive to the children of my own body. 18 Even young children despise me; I arise, and they speak against me. 19 All my close friends abhor me, And those whom I love have turned against me. 20 My bone clings to my skin and to my flesh, And I have escaped by the skin of my teeth. 21 “Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends, For the hand of God has struck me! 22 Why do you persecute me as God does, And are not satisfied with my flesh? Job 23:13 “But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. 14 For He performs what is appointed for me, And many such things are with Him. 15 Therefore I am terrified at His presence; When I consider this, I am afraid of Him. Can we not see a bit of arrogance on Job’s behalf from the following? Job 29:1 Job further continued his discourse, and said: 2 Oh, that I were as in months past, As in the days when God watched over me; 3 When His lamp shone upon my head, And when by His light I walked through darkness; 4 Just as I was in the days of my prime, When the friendly counsel of God was over my tent; 5 When the Almighty was yet with me, When my children were around me; 6 When my steps were bathed with cream, And the rock poured out rivers of oil for me! 7 “When I went out to the gate by the city, When I took my seat in the open square, 8 The young men saw me and hid, And the aged arose and stood; 9 The princes refrained from talking, And put their hand on their mouth; 10 The voice of nobles was hushed, And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth. 11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me, And when the eye saw, then it approved me; 12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out, The fatherless and the one who had no helper. 13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me, And I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy. 14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me; My justice was like a robe and a turban. 15 I was eyes to the blind, And I was feet to the lame. 16 I was a father to the poor, And I searched out the case that I did not know. 17 I broke the fangs of the wicked, And plucked the victim from his teeth. 18 “Then I said, 'I shall die in my nest, And multiply my days as the sand. 19 My root is spread out to the waters, And the dew lies all night on my branch. 20 My glory is fresh within me, And my bow is renewed in my hand.' 21 “Men listened to me and waited, And kept silence for my counsel. 22 After my words they did not speak again, And my speech settled on them as dew. 23 They waited for me as for the rain, And they opened their mouth wide as for the spring rain. 24 If I mocked at them, they did not believe it, And the light of my countenance they did not cast down. 25 I chose the way for them, and sat as chief; So I dwelt as a king in the army, As one who comforts mourners. As we continue to read through the book of Job, we see that Job struggles for understanding. This is  because Job believes that he is innocent of any wrong doing, and so it makes him question whether God is a righteous judge. Job 32:1 So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God. 3 Also against his three friends his wrath was aroused, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. 4 Now because they were years older than he, Elihu had waited to speak to Job. Job 34:33 Should He repay it according to your terms, Just because you disavow it? You must choose, and not I; Therefore speak what you know. 34 “Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: 35 'Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom.' 36 Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! 37 For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps his hands among us, And multiplies his words against God.” From chapters 34 through 37 we see Elihu rightfully accuse Job of self-righteousness and as well Elihu stands up for God and being a righteous judge.   Then in chapter 38 we see God Himself step in and speak with Job. By chapter 42 Job answers the Lord WITH REPENTANCE, saying that he abhors himself for uttering things that he did not understand. Job says “BUT NOW my eyes sees YOU.” It should be noted as well that in 42 God says that Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar have not spoken right in the end about God. One can only rightfully assume that what Elihu spoke was truth, and we see that Job has spoken rightly in the end through what which he learned through his suffering and through being corrected by Elihu and God. Man is limited, even a man's depth of righteousness is limited. Job was seen as upright, one who shunned away from evil, but this was due, as we see from scripture, only because of Job's circumstances. Change those circumstances and a man's attitude changes. Angels were known by the Israelites as adversaries, disingenuously translated sometimes in the bible as Satan with a capitol letter. These adversaries were either correctly known as God's messengers of infliction or they were likened to FALSE GODS AND FALSE DEMONS. When we read the entire book of Job it is evident that the men speaking in it all were under the correct understanding that Job's infliction came through God's hand according to His witness or messenger. All those who claim that the adversary worked from his own powers, has then taken the adversary and made him into a false god, doing injustice to the ONE true God who ALONE exists with Powers. WJ you are confused your doctrine has blinded you, you said, “Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil? Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason? Those are YHWH’s words.” WJ, the adversary never said that Job was not blameless and upright. On the contrary the adversary said that Job was such but only because God had put a hedge around him. It looked at first as if the adversary was wrong when Job was first afflicted. However, upon being inflicted onto his own flesh Job in fact began to crumble and things in him such as his ignorance and arrogance became exposed. God knew the adversary was right, this would obviously be WHY God was incited or MOVED by the adversary to do what the adversary suggested a second time, even after the first failed. The text never shows that the adversary is full of malice. The adversary is shown to follow and obey the Lord, and it is because of the adversaries request that Job ends up becoming a better man. WJ, why did after the adversary was wrong the first time did God give in a second time and follow the ideas of the adversary? 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” At first it appeared that Job was made to suffer for no reason, however if you CONTINUE READING the REST of the book, we can see the obvious, that the adversary incited God against Job for GOOD reason, for an important and justifiable purpose. WJ, IMO you have slandered, become a devil to the bible and to God's messenger, the adversary in the book of Job. You say the adversary's work is a form of malice, and the one scripture you choose in your defense you cannot even read correctly. You falsely stated that the adversary accused Job of not being upright, however the adversary never said such. Because a person incites God to do something that makes them evil? When we try and understand it your way, IMO we make God out to be an idiot. God is going to be incited (moved, caused, motivated), by someone who is in complete error? Your understanding WJ, creates the appearance that God can be fooled. Satan is man's avowed enemy. God cannot be tempted with evil. God made it clear in the end that JOB was correct in what he was saying about God. God said clearly that He cannot be judged because He does whatever He wants to do as He sees fit. Satan in know way is acting on behalf of God. You need to go read what Elihu said in the book of Job and what God then said after and then what Job said about himself, that he was a fool who needed to REPENT. You need to use proper context when forming your understanding. God told Job, “who is this who darkens my council by words without knowledge? God told Job, “shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it.” Then Job answered and said, ” Behold I am vile.” It would appear as if you need to read the book of Job again. God made it apparent that Job needed some work, that Job was ignorant and self righteous. The book makes it clear that Job learned and through his repentance God could say that Job had done right and that his words now are right by God.   Satan in the bible is referred to as being God Himself and His messengers. God is a righteous satan, working for the good. Man can be a malice satan. I argue from scripture that there does not exist a satan of malice with supernatural powers, to identify a satan in the bible as such is to create a false god.

Satan is never referred to as God in the Bible.

You are truly confused.

You make no such argument from scripture, otherwise Satan would not be seeking whom he may devour.

If you are correct How is it this verse is true:

Revelation 12:9

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 8:43-45 (King James Version)

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jodi, You are way off and you should really focus as you are thinking in a foggy way. Are you up for a debate on this topic?

I care about you so it would greatly be beneficial.

[Jodi Lee]

Good Morning bodhitharta,

Yes I of course am up for debate on this topic. I have been debating this topic for at least over a year now. You should go to the Satan thread, I have many posts there under just Jodi.

The Young Literals Translation bible you will find does not even use the word Satan, instead you will see the correct word adversary, properly rendered.

bodhitharta, it seems apparent that you might be unfamiliar with the fact that the word satan in the English bible comes from the Hebrew word !tX, which has the phonetic sound of saw-tawn, and simply means adversary.

We see in the Old Testament, !tX used to describe David's enemies of war, in other words mere MEN. As well !tX is used to describe messengers of whom God sends unto people.

So when God sends a !tX (saw-tawn), He Himself is acting unto the people as a !tX (saw-tawn).

The word Satan in the bible should not even exist.

We see !tX (saw-tawn) DIRECTLY in the bible spoken to describe MEN, and God's Messengers. However there does not exist one scripture that directly links !tX to some supernatural being that has similar powers as YHWH.

As far as Revelation 12 is concerned, the dragon is specifically said to represent kings. Men in the bible are referred to as dragons, serpents, slanderers (devils), and adversaries. However NOT ONE time are these things said to be some powerful rebel spirit. Due to Christian doctrine founded a long time ago by the early RCC church BY PAGAN converts, people attach a fable character to the Hebrew word for adversary and the Greek word for slanderer.

The bible as well, which I have discussed numerous times, shows that it is MAN who is said to fall from heaven, meaning from his high position and his high arrogant belief of himself. God numerous times in the bible we are told, brings man down or cuts him down from the heavens or high places.

Never once in the bible is there a scripture that tells of some spirit being rebelling against God and God having to throw him and some followers out of heaven.  That story does not exist, other then within man made tradition.

Jesus tells us that God's will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We are told that heaven is where the righteous dwell. Heaven can mean in the bible God's dwelling place as well as simply the sky. If an angel can be in God's dwelling place, bring war and want to be against God, then what is so great about being in God's dwelling place? God says there will be no more war and suffering, there will be no more sin when we are in His dwelling place. If you believe angels can sin in heaven and make war in heaven, then seriously how are we then able to really trust in God? The bible shows that immortality and righteousness go hand in hand. Immortality is something earned and given by God's grace. Immortality represents perfection. Man will be like the angels NO LONGER able to die because no sin is found in them. We know that sin leads to death, and first is the natural then comes the spiritually. It should be clear from the foundations the bible sets that once you've received immortality being made perfect able to dwell in God's presence there would be no turning back. The idea of fallen angels in my mind is completely reckless for it destroys YHWH entire credibility.

When the dragon falls from heaven taking messengers with him, this is symbolic NOT literal, and we are directly told that it is symbolic. We are directly told that the dragon represents kings. We see in the OT that God brings down kings from their high places! So how perfect then does Revelations 12 makes sense when we USE other scriptures to find symbolic meaning and not the traditions of men.

There is not a scripture that says that kings are being manipulated by supernatural forces, on the contrary we are told that sin comes from within the flesh.  

Who was the first born into the world? Cain was and he was a liar and a murderer. Devil is a word meaning slanderer, it is used to describe HUMANS. God warned Cain against his OWN sin, not against some invisible monster hiding under his bed. Sin we are clearly told by Jesus comes from within our own heart. We are told specifically in James how sin is aroused by the flesh, NOT by supernatural beings. To be of your father the devil is to walk according to all fathers before you, which is according to the flesh. When we walk according to Jesus we walk according to the Spirit and have crucified our flesh with it's passions and desires.

Peter was called by Jesus a !tX, disingenuously translated Satan, for having in mind the things of men, not for being manipulated by an invisible powerful rebel spirit. The Devil in the following scripture is a MAN the current ruler, who is following after his fleshly desires, not a man who is being possessed by evil spirits.

Re 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Christians see such scriptures as..

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

and let their imaginations, from what they have been falsely told, run wild, using such fables as fallen angels as a base to give meaning to scripture, instead of using the scriptures themselves.

Paul uses the word air to represent something that bears no fruit, emptiness or worthlessness. Man's spirit without God is worthless it is left to feed off of it's natural instincts serving it's flesh. Jesus says “Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!”

When a man follows after the ruler of the kingdom of the air, he is following after the kingdom of worthlessness. It is not to follow after some invisible being that dwells in a hidden dark kingdom in the sky, that is IMO just a huge load of crap with NO scriptural basis whatsoever. Just look what we are told IS following after the kingdom of the air… verse 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

By nature we are children of wrath, not by following after invisible spirit beings, it says PLAINLY and CLEARLY that it is by our nature. Man without God is left to his fleshly desires, to his natural instincts. The choice man has between good and evil is not from two supernatural forces as the Greek pagan converts of the early church believed, men who did not look to the scriptures to find meaning to things but plugged in their own previous held ideologies to find meaning. The choice of man is to live by the Spirit of God and put away the flesh with it's passions and desires that makes us by our very nature children of wrath. Just look at the way animals behave. When man does not have the Spirit working in him he is like a lion ready to devour, he is not like some invisible powerful spirit being. Man is like a lion, knowing nothing of the ways of God only his brute Naturally instincts.

IMO I am not foggy, I am consistent with what the scriptures say. I don't let my imagination from fables dictate my understanding of scripture. When I try to attach meaning to something Paul wrote that is hard to understand I look to other places of Paul's writing to discern what he meant.

Paul used air to describe emptiness and worthless
ness. Paul warned man about following after the flesh, he never spoke of following after supernatural rebel spirits. Have men followed after false prophets, men who are devils, slanderers? Yes they have.  

Our flesh is the greatest slanderer or rather DEVIL and adversary or rather SATAN out there! Our flesh tells us everyday to serve it. By our nature we are drawn to serve our flesh, it constantly tells us we need to serve it in order to live. Our own nature lies to us, slandering the truth of God, for God is the ONLY way to life.  

The adversary came to Jesus after he had not eaten for forty days. What was it that spoke to Jesus in the wilderness, some super powerful spirit being? What scriptural basis to we have for such an idea? The bible tells us directly to be a satan is to have in mind the things of men, the bible tells us specifically that we are tempted and enticed by our fleshly desires and passions and we sin when we give in to them. When we USE SCRIPTURE, the adversary in the wilderness enticing Jesus to make food and use God's powers to serve his flesh, should seem rather clear shouldn't it? Scripture tells us that the adversary in the wilderness enticing Jesus was his own flesh!

There is not a scripture that says, without our even knowing it hidden evil spirits put ideas into our head to make us serve our flesh. What a load of crap!! =) Scripture directly tells us it is IN our NATURE.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Indeed the nature of men reflects their inhabitants.

[Jodi Lee]

What exactly are you trying to say here Nick, I would hate to speculate…and please use scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Read the words of Jesus.

He spoke often of the domain of darkness.
Paul too about sin that dwelled within men.

[Jodi Lee]

No Nick, could you PLEASE explain yourself and use scripture.

I honestly don't need you, of all people, to tell me to read Jesus and Paul.

Jesus and Paul said our sin comes from within man it is according to man's nature. Fleshly desire tempts man to sin. Are these the inward inhabitants you are referring to.. man's inward desires?

I would hate to think you are referring to some sort of intelligent spirit being.

Scripture says BY OUR NATURE we are children of wrath. You Nick seem to be having a hard time understanding that rather simple concept.

Man is likened to acting like an animal, never some spirit being.

So would it be fair to say Nick that according to you when an animal eats it's own young out of survival,  it's not really the animals natural instincts, that's just a cover up, it's really some evil spirit being?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
But you do not seem to have heard their words.
You should read them.

[Author]

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