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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,13:23) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 16 2009,00:55)
There is nothing in Job that would have us believe that the adversary is some rebel spirit against God and wants to be evil unto Job for wicked sake.
Then God must be a liar then, for the Lord says to satan…“Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? “He still holds fast his integrity, ALTHOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT REASON.” Job 2:3
WJ
That was an excellent post WJGod Bless you always
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 18 2009,16:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,13:23) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 16 2009,00:55)
There is nothing in Job that would have us believe that the adversary is some rebel spirit against God and wants to be evil unto Job for wicked sake.
Then God must be a liar then, for the Lord says to satan…“Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? “He still holds fast his integrity, ALTHOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT REASON.” Job 2:3
WJ
That was an excellent post WJGod Bless you always
Don't you see though that the adversary did have a reason and it was the right one?Why else would God then go through with what the adversary wanted? Why would the adversary refer to what he wanted to do as the same as God stretching out His Hand?
Why then, if the adversary was wrong, did Job learn and end up better off then he was before?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,16:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 18 2009,16:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 18 2009,13:23) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 16 2009,00:55)
There is nothing in Job that would have us believe that the adversary is some rebel spirit against God and wants to be evil unto Job for wicked sake.
Then God must be a liar then, for the Lord says to satan…“Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? “He still holds fast his integrity, ALTHOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT REASON.” Job 2:3
WJ
That was an excellent post WJGod Bless you always
Don't you see though that the adversary did have a reason and it was the right one?Why else would God then go through with what the adversary wanted? Why would the adversary refer to what he wanted to do as the same as God stretching out His Hand?
Why then, if the adversary was wrong, did Job learn and end up better off then he was before?
The advesary proved wrong as it was written that Job was right in his defense.As far as Job being better off we are always better off when we stay close to God and resist Satan.
Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' 5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”
Job 40:1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said: 2 “Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it.” 3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 “Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. 5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further.”
Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 “Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
Seems as if the adversary was right, Job had a hedge around him and was a very ignorant man…even though he thought of himself, it sounds, as being wise.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,16:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!!
God forbid!There was no deal, Satan just like anyone else has a choice but the choice isn't free.
Satan felt it would justify himself to prove that Job was not better than him.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,16:44) Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' 5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”
Therefore he humbled himself.Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,16:56) Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 “Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me. Seems as if the adversary was right, Job had a hedge around him and was a very ignorant man…even though he thought of himself, it sounds, as being wise.
No, the advesary was completely wrong. Job stood up to even God and God rewarded him for his strong humility for not only did Job not curse God he Submitted even moreso.Remember God said Job was right. Will you defy what God Himself said?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,00:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!!
Hi JodiWhats sick and twisted is to believe that YHWH brings sickness and disease on the upright and the righteous and kills their families!
Can you maybe show us some other examples of the “upright and righteous” in the scriptures that the Lord killed or brought sickness and disease on?
Your doctrine goes against the 1000s of scriptures that says the Lord will bless and not curse those who obey him and walk uprightly before him!
The Lord said to satan…
“Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL”.” Job 1:7
“”Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; “HE IS BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT, A MAN WHO FEARS GOD AND SHUNS EVIL. AND HE STILL MAINTAINS HIS INTEGRITY”, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job 2:3
Job walked in all the truth that he knew and in the Lords eyes he was perfect and upright. Could he still grow and did he become a better man? Of course he did! The good news is God works “all things” together for good to those that love him, even those things in which the enemies of God and man mean for harm or evil!
Would you agree with satan and doubt YHWH's words when he says Job is blameless and upright and one that fears God and shuns evil?
Would you then incite the Lord to move against him without any reason?
Those are YHWH’s words.
Yet you seem not to believe them? You want to point to Jobs words or the testimony of his friends in order to support your doctrine, rather than accept the words of the Lord!
What does YHWH say?
WJ
Gene wrote:
Quote Scripture also says GOD is NOT TEMPTED.
It states God is not tempted by evil. I admit that Satan intended evil but that is not what tempted God, rather God was tempted by the good determined that allowing Satan to act within limits would be good. In this case the good is that Job’s heart is tested(proved).
Gene wrote:
Quote He knew Job would have a very great problem in the future with his (SELF) Righteousness, and had to deal with it at that time, to keep PRIDE from taking over Job in the future.
Do you believe Job’s sin was self-righteousness? I do not see that. I do see that Job believed he was being punished unjustly and he was correct in that Satan was punishing him unjustly. But God was not punishing him but rather was testing him. James teaches us that testing develops perseverance and that perseverance must finish its work so that one is mature and complete. He also instructs us to consider testing to be a good thing and I do not believe Job did that.
Gene wrote:
Quote To teach doctrines about demons and devil (BEINGS) is what it say the Great Whore Church would do, we are told to come out of Her or we would recieve of (HER) plagues, these plagues are the plagues of (PHOBIAS) of all types.
So according to you the writer of the book of Job as well as other scriptures is a servant of the Great Whore Church as they obviously teach doctrines about the devil and demons. I am saddened that you feel that way about the servants of God.
You need to stop listening to the false teachers of law who call themselves psychiatrists. They do not even consider God exists in their teaching and those that do are considered frauds.
Gene wrote:
Quote Man is held responsible for His sin not some spook
You fail to understand scripture as each individual is held responsible for their own actions whether they are a demon, angel, living being, or human.
Gene wrote:
Quote The Satan or devil is the man himself He is the adversary of GOD as history has shown,
So a human being went before God and tempted him to strike Job. What human do you feel ascended to heaven with the angels? Was it Enoch? I ask because I know of no other human that had ascended to heaven at that time.
Jodi Lee,
Job did sin but he did not curse God and Satan accused Job by saying Job would curse God if God allowed Satan to assault Job without cause.
It does seem to me that Job accused God of punishing him without cause. The accusation was wrong only in that God was not the guilty party while Satan was.
This happened to Job as an example to us that we not blame the wrong party.
The same thing goes with temptation as God does not tempt anyone with evil but rather he allows people to be tempted by evil in order to temper their hearts and to reveal flaws if they exist. Satan and his host are the tools that accomplish this goal.
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 18 2009,17:12) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 18 2009,16:40) So YHWH makes deals with the devil for NO good reason. That's rather sick and twisted!!
God forbid!There was no deal, Satan just like anyone else has a choice but the choice isn't free.
Satan felt it would justify himself to prove that Job was not better than him.
Where does it say Satan felt it would justify himself to prove that Job was not better then him?The scriptures don't say that, your belief is a tradition of man.
and of whom does this Satan want to prove that he is better then a man to, himself?
Why did the adversary go and present himself to the Lord? Do you think he wanted God's approval? Why would a rebel against God seek God's approval?
Job 33:19 “Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with strong pain in many of his bones, 20 So that his life abhors bread, And his soul succulent food. 21 His flesh wastes away from sight, And his bones stick out which once were not seen. 22 Yes, his soul draws near the Pit, And his life to the executioners. 23 “If there is a messenger for him, A mediator, one among a thousand, To show man His uprightness, 24 Then He is gracious to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down to the Pit; I have found a ransom'; 25 His flesh shall be young like a child's, He shall return to the days of his youth. 26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, He shall see His face with joy, For He restores to man His righteousness. 27 Then he looks at men and says, 'I have sinned, and perverted what was right, And it did not profit me.' 28 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit, And his life shall see the light.
I find it rather disingenuous that the translators rendered mal'ak in chapter 33 as messenger instead of angel.
1 Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. 7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up. 8 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. “For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, And He has set the world upon them.
Who does God send to destroy and bring people down to the the grave?
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and relented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
NOTICE how the angel needed the command of the Lord to stop and say “it is enough”, otherwise the angel would have kept destroying.
Job is asking in chapter 33 if there is ONE angel out of a THOUSAND, that would NOT bring him down to the pit, but rather show him the way. The Israelites define angels of the Lord that brought destruction as adversaries, this is why the angel of the Lord in Job is referred to as adversary.
Jodi Lee,
Your interpretation sounds like that of the Synagogue of Satan and not that of the servants of God.
Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia states about Satan. This source is an account that addresses many sources some that are of God and some that are not. In addition it advances the false hypothesis that the idea of Satan evolved over time.
I added the word “false” before hypothesis to make my disbelief in the idea more clear.
Kerwin………If Jodi is in error the post you scriptures to support you beliefs , Show us how Her interpretations are of the synagogue of SATAN. To make false statement s about a brother or sister is in itself of the synagogues of Satan. Prove you points not accuse others as Nick does. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
Gen You just did what you accuse kerwin of, if you do not want to judge, then don't do it to anyone,
including Nick. That my friend would be wonderful IMO. There is to much of this going on here.
We all fall short of the glory of God. So lets be nice to each other. I know I have not always been
upright either, but let us all try a little harder, in agreement? I hope so.Peace and Love to all Irene
Quote (Gene @ May 19 2009,21:59) Kerwin………If Jodi is in error the post you scriptures to support you beliefs , Show us how Her interpretations are of the synagogue of SATAN. To make false statement s about a brother or sister is in itself of the synagogues of Satan. Prove you points not accuse others as Nick does. IMO peace and love…………………….gene
I believe she is spouting a version of modern Jewish doctrine I found previously or close to it. It is not in scripture because it is a false doctrine. Expecting to find false doctrine in scripture is of course absurd.It is obviously not scripture since scripture tells us demons not only exist but that they believe in God and that belief fills them with the fear of their coming damnation.
I included the link I did to give insight into what a modern Jewish source states about demons even though I did not agree with it in whole.
Still I have not been able to locate the Jewish source I found previously which makes me believe her beliefs may even be in a minority among the modern Jews or possibly my memory failed me yet once again. Then again reform and reconstruction Jews do not believe there is a Messiah so it is right up their alley.
You on the other hand seem to favor both Zohar and later Chasidic thought which had depersonalized Satan according to
my source.What do you think of the Jewish idea that the Messiah is not a person but rather an age. That is a reform and reconstruction Jew idea.
Kerwin…..There is no end to what you can find out there. But Jodi gave (MANY) scriptures to support Her findings and i personally agree with her. Man himself is the true SATAN, not some unseen spook going around jumping in and out of people at his own personal will. Teaching the Doctrines about demons is part of the apostate Church teaches. We are told to come out of HER, not part way but all the way out of all Her false teachings. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
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