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Quote (mikeangel @ Jan. 31 2011,11:52) You said that you could not explain how he could not be in both places at the same time. You could not understand why Jesus, His Father, and his spirit are all and the same, one God forever and ever. You are correct, you don't know. Also correct is the assumption that Jesus would not leave us orphaned, in John 14:18. #2 was from Mark3:28. NET 3:28 28 Truly I say to YOU that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins and blasphemies they blasphemously commit. 29 However, whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin.”
I do not think it is wise to belittle God's Holy spirit. It is as much God as Jesus is. God is a spirit(from your bible), Jesus and the Father are One, When you see Jesus you see the Father, and the Holy spirit is in the Father, and Jesus, and they are all one. Peace-Mark
P.S. Yes Mike, I have grown some, and hopefully thickened my skin. I have benefited from my experience here. Thank you for your input and patience.
Hi Mark! I had to chuckle a little when you said that you thickened your skin!!!!!! I do know what you mean, I too have grown somewhat. I also would like to know when you say that the Holy Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit!!!! The trinity teaches that the Holy Spirit is a person ~!!! You have con fused me, because that is what the Bible teaches me, but that is not the trinity!!!!!
Has the Catholic Church changed? When I taught our 4 Children it was still a Person 3in1….a mystery…
Peace and love IreneYou know Irene, honestly I had never defined God by three but one. I had heard the term, but honestly never gave it alot of thought. I have always believed that God was in the beginning, with himself being totally God, the good spirit of everything, and infinately powerful and all knowing being everywhere. And as I understood it and understand it, He manifested into being human, and that spirit lived among us in human form, and died and was tortured for us, and returned back where it came from, and is coming again. I don't get into what else men have added to that. I don't need to pray to anything but God. When I do I get dierect responses, Thank you God. I pay no heed to statues, and that God they do not require me to. Nothing that is extra-biblical is required from me., I am not required ot say the rosery. I am not required to pray to saints or others or the dead. Others may think they can, but to me I don't agree, and to thier credit they don't require me to.
What I do like about my church is that it is that only one I know of that you can't (I see this happen all the time and have seen it all my life) .. you can't wake up one day and decide “well, the secratary that I've been having sex with and destroying my family with is ment for me, no matter the vows I made, so I am going to find a excuse to divorce her, marry the whore, and leave the state, and walk into just any church and live happily ever after”
The system in my church is not perfect, and I am sure its got its problems and sins, as anything run by humans does, but it is as least a attempt to hold people to a standard of marriage with consequenses. The other issues I have I stated in the Mikeangels message thread, where I have a differance eiht the church, I let them know, in proper protocol, by sending them to the bishop, as his sheep. If thier is nothing done, that is on his and the churches head. In the mean time, I will participate with what i agree with, ignore what I don't , and pray God comes and sits us all down very soon, and shows us all mercy. Peace and much love Irene-Mark.
Ps- I thought it was funny too, the lesson you taught me. you said as I remember correctly, “you can't just run away whaen someone disagrees with you on here, people have said much worse to me than that”. You did, I retain what is good. You got alot of good in you. Godbless
Mikeboll-As for your question posted about the difference between God and His Holy Spirit………simple. One of them is God, the other is the Spirit OF God, which cannot speak on its own, but only what God tells it to say. The Spirit is a helper that God SENT to us, not God Himself.
Ok- Pardon me, this isn't as simple to me as you imply- Out of the bible you approve-
From the New World Translation, which you uphold-John 4:24-
24 “God is a SpiritI'm not there. What exactly is the differance. God is a spirit. check. The holy spirit comes from God. check. Explain the differance pleaase. What are the differances? Gifts? Companionship? Guidance(personally). Peace-Mark
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 31 2011,18:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,09:58) Ed, how did the Greeks express possession? How would they write “Spirit OF God”, for instance? mike
Hi Mike,By using the genitive form of a word… θεου …is the genitive singular
Matt.12:28: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matt.12:28 εἰ δὲ ἐν πνεύματι θεοῦ ἐγὼ ἐκβάλλω τὰ δαιμόνια, ἄρα ἔφθασεν1 ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Very good, Ed (as we've discussed at length before)
So, let me rephrase my question to address your smark-aleck reply.
When did the Greek word θεου become so hard for you to understand? If the form of the Greek word means “OF God”, and we in English translate that particular form of the Greek word as “OF God”, and because of both of these things we know the passage says “Spirit OF God”, then why not answer?
What does the word “OF” mean to you? When did it become so hard for you to understand it? A “Spirit OF God” is not God Himself anymore than a “son OF God” is God Himself.
mike
From the New World Translation, which you uphold-John 4:24-
24 “God is a SpiritIs this a misprint? Should it have rather said “God is of a Spirit”? How is the differance reconciled?
Is Mikebol's spirit a different entity than Mikeboll? How is it differant? Does it direct your thoughts and actions and feelings as the most important part of you, without which you are a biological mass?
Hi Mark,
I don't quite understand your posts. I have never “belittled” the Holy Spirit. And I knew which passage you referred to in #2. And like I said, it says nothing about the Father as a separate individual from the Holy Spirit.
As far as your other two points: Is there a reason you think they say that Jesus is God Almighty? I'm not following you here.
And as far as the “Holy Spirit differing from the Father” question, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit OF God. When is anything in scripture that is OF God also God Himself?
You mention “gifts”, and yes, the Holy Spirit IS a GIFT that God gives to those He wishes.But once again, I'm confused. I'm not blowing you off, I just don't know what you're after. Mark, if you think any of these things are teaching you that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is God Himself, then pick ONE of them, and explain why you think it teaches that. And I'll see if I can shed any light on the subject.
peace and love to you,
mikeps I'm not a JW, nor have I ever been. Don't buy into Keith and Jack's games. They like to call the NWT “MY” translation. But so far, I've read the NWT, NIV, CEV, and have started the NASB. I like them all, but the NIV is my favorite so far.
Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 01 2011,11:51) Is Mikebol's spirit a different entity than Mikeboll?
Hi Mark,I don't believe so. Just as I don't believe the Father's Spirit is a different entity than Him.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,11:31) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 31 2011,18:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,09:58) Ed, how did the Greeks express possession? How would they write “Spirit OF God”, for instance? mike
Hi Mike,By using the genitive form of a word… θεου …is the genitive singular
Matt.12:28: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matt.12:28 εἰ δὲ ἐν πνεύματι θεοῦ ἐγὼ ἐκβάλλω τὰ δαιμόνια, ἄρα ἔφθασεν1 ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Very good, Ed (as we've discussed at length before)So, let me rephrase my question to address your smark-aleck reply.
When did the Greek word θεου become so hard for you to understand? If the form of the Greek word means “OF God”, and we in English translate that particular form of the Greek word as “OF God”, and because of both of these things we know the passage says “Spirit OF God”, then why not answer?
What does the word “OF” mean to you? When did it become so hard for you to understand it? A “Spirit OF God” is not God Himself anymore than a “son OF God” is God Himself.
mike
Out of curiousity, how is this smart aleck? I don't know enough about greek to say (it's all greek to me ) Is he wrong or is that correct in greek?Peace-MarkQuote (mikeangel @ Feb. 01 2011,10:49) He manifested into being human, and that spirit lived among us in human form, and died and was tortured for us,
Hi Mark,Your God can be tortured and even KILLED by mere human beings? Mine can't. Mine is from “everlasting to everlasting” according to Moses. He has never died, nor can He. He did however, send His very own begotten Son to die as a sacrifice to atone for our sins, showing how very much He loves us by being willing to sacrifice His own beloved Son in our behalf. (John 3:16)
But all is good now. Because since Jesus died for us, and was raised back to everlasting life, proving the promise of the resurrection, he cannot die again. (Romans 6:9)
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,11:55) Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 01 2011,11:51) Is Mikebol's spirit a different entity than Mikeboll?
Hi Mark,I don't believe so. Just as I don't believe the Father's Spirit is a different entity than Him.
mike
Exactly. Theres no differance. They are one. And Jesus said he was one with the Father. And they are all one in the same perfect spirit, and only God can be. You are right. Thanks. Peace-MarkQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,11:31) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 31 2011,18:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,09:58) Ed, how did the Greeks express possession? How would they write “Spirit OF God”, for instance? mike
Hi Mike,By using the genitive form of a word… θεου …is the genitive singular
Matt.12:28: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matt.12:28 εἰ δὲ ἐν πνεύματι θεοῦ ἐγὼ ἐκβάλλω τὰ δαιμόνια, ἄρα ἔφθασεν1 ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Very good, Ed (as we've discussed at length before)So, let me rephrase my question to address your smark-aleck reply.
When did the Greek word θεου become so hard for you to understand? If the form of the Greek word means “OF God”, and we in English translate that particular form of the Greek word as “OF God”, and because of both of these things we know the passage says “Spirit OF God”, then why not answer?
What does the word “OF” mean to you? When did it become so hard for you to understand it? A “Spirit OF God” is not God Himself anymore than a “son OF God” is God Himself.
mike
Hi Mike,What Greek is saying: “God Spirit”(117), 117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD)
You're doing things backwards. You're using English to explain Greek.
You instead should use Greek concepts to explain English phrases.
It doesn't mean 'of God', it's meaning is God referring to himself.
Why is this so hard for you to understand this simple truth?
Perhaps the deeply embedded brainwashing? (Col.2:22)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeangel @ Feb. 01 2011,12:03) Out of curiousity, how is this smart aleck? I don't know enough about greek to say (it's all greek to me ) Is he wrong or is that correct in greek?Peace-Mark
Hi Mark,You missed the beginning of the conversation. Ed and I both know very well that the Greeks used what is called a genetive form of various words to imply “OF”.
For instance, when Jesus calls YHVH “MY God”, the Greek has “the God OF me”. But instead of the actual word “OF”, that particular form of the Greek word “ME” is genetive. Which to the Greeks meant “OF ME”, and to the English means we add the word “OF” in front of it, spelling it out as “OF ME”.
Ed knows that we both know this stuff. So when I asked him, referring to the “Spirit OF God”, when it became so hard for him to understand the word “OF”, he made a smart-aleck reply that the Greeks don't have the word “OF” in their language.
Get it?
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2011,12:14) It doesn't mean 'of God', it's meaning is God referring to himself.
Oh brother. Now I've heard it all.Ed, please post your expert Greek witness to this effect.
mike
ps I'm not a JW, nor have I ever been. Don't buy into Keith and Jack's games. They like to call the NWT “MY” translation. But so far, I've read the NWT, NIV, CEV, and have started the NASB. I like them all, but the NIV is my favorite so far.
-Mikeboll
I'm not buying anybodys game. I read the bible myself, and make my own statements. I was in a debate with you once and the rebuttal you gave was based on the NET translation, which made me think that was what you upheld, since you relied on it to make your point. In the same conversation I pointed out to you that the authors might have been skewed on the very subtle and intracate variations being that they were all pre-concieved against Jesus being the manifestation of the perfect God. So, thats why when I look something up, I try to read what you believe in order to see your influances and communicate on your level. Are you saying take your pick? Which translations do you approve and why?Peace
Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 01 2011,12:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,11:55) Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 01 2011,11:51) Is Mikebol's spirit a different entity than Mikeboll?
Hi Mark,I don't believe so. Just as I don't believe the Father's Spirit is a different entity than Him.
mike
Exactly. Theres no differance. They are one. And Jesus said he was one with the Father. And they are all one in the same perfect spirit, and only God can be. You are right. Thanks. Peace-Mark
That's right Mark. And Jesus also says that some of us will be ONE with them, right? Will the “Godhead” be gaining some new members?And that ONE perfect Spirit that proceeds from God runs through Jesus and every living thing in existence. We are all “fueled” by the spirit that God has given us on loan. When we die, that spirit goes back to Him who gave it to us on loan.
Now, if you have something that you think says Jesus or the Holy Spirit is the being of God Himself, don't hesitate to make a clear claim to that effect, okay? Because so far, nothing you have said teaches that Jesus is God, or that the Holy Spirit is an individual PERSON in some “Godhead”.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,12:14) Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 01 2011,12:03) Out of curiousity, how is this smart aleck? I don't know enough about greek to say (it's all greek to me ) Is he wrong or is that correct in greek?Peace-Mark
Hi Mark,You missed the beginning of the conversation. Ed and I both know very well that the Greeks used what is called a genetive form of various words to imply “OF”.
For instance, when Jesus calls YHVH “MY God”, the Greek has “the God OF me”. But instead of the actual word “OF”, that particular form of the Greek word “ME” is genetive. Which to the Greeks meant “OF ME”, and to the English means we add the word “OF” in front of it, spelling it out as “OF ME”.
Ed knows that we both know this stuff. So when I asked him, referring to the “Spirit OF God”, when it became so hard for him to understand the word “OF”, he made a smart-aleck reply that the Greeks don't have the word “OF” in their language.
Get it?
mike
I will admit how non spiritually stupid I am. I don't get it. I'll stick to English. Peace-MarkQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,12:16) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2011,12:14) It doesn't mean 'of God', it's meaning is God referring to himself.
Oh brother. Now I've heard it all.Ed, please post your expert Greek witness to this effect.
mike
Hi Mike,You learn something every day (as the saying goes).
Here's a link to help you better understand the Greek…http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pronoun2.html
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMark,
Did you mean NET? Or did you mean to say NWT? The NET is written by trinitarians, the NWT by the JW's. And I like them both.
Mark, you'll find that the NET shows the actual Greek and Hebrew words. That's where I look.
But you'll find that no translation ever really says that Jesus is God. Sure, they cap the “G” sometimes, but when you realize the actual word was either the Hebrew “elohim” or the Greek “theos”, and that neither of them distinguished between upper and lower case letters, then you'll also come to realize that to cap the “G” referring to Jesus is simply and English man's preferrence, and not any valid proof that Jesus is God Almighty.
I urge you to use the crap out of NETNotes. Everything you need to make an informed decision is right there on one page in front of you………….usually.
mike
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