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Hi TC,
We serve God in Jesus.
How can you worship that which you partake of?We who are in the he Vine serve the Gardener.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,14:50) Quote (942767 @ July 02 2009,18:15) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,13:36) Marty, What about Titus 2:13? God AND Savior Jesus Christ?
TC27
Hi:KJV reads:
Quote Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; It probably should have a comma after God in that sentence. God is a Spirit and the Body of Christ is the Holy temple of God, and Jesus is God's representative and is being sent by God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,BUT there is no comma. You can say there should be this, or there should be that. However, that changes nothing. There is still no comma there. If you can show me a comma in the greek? If there is no comma, what makes you think that God didn't intent for it to be read that way? There have been translation errors over the years, but never anything that alters the gospel.
TC27
Hi TC:If you are saying that Jesus is God, then that is altering the gospel.
God through the Apostle Peter revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16) Why is that so hard to understand?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 03 2009,16:15) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,14:50) Quote (942767 @ July 02 2009,18:15) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,13:36) Marty, What about Titus 2:13? God AND Savior Jesus Christ?
TC27
Hi:KJV reads:
Quote Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; It probably should have a comma after God in that sentence. God is a Spirit and the Body of Christ is the Holy temple of God, and Jesus is God's representative and is being sent by God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,BUT there is no comma. You can say there should be this, or there should be that. However, that changes nothing. There is still no comma there. If you can show me a comma in the greek? If there is no comma, what makes you think that God didn't intent for it to be read that way? There have been translation errors over the years, but never anything that alters the gospel.
TC27
Hi TC:If you are saying that Jesus is God, then that is altering the gospel.
God through the Apostle Peter revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16) Why is that so hard to understand?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty Have you not read what it says in Hebrew 1:8 it says :” And to the Son He said ” Your Throne, O God is for forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
verse 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. Therefore God Your God has anointed You with the oil of gladness more then Your companions.”
But that does not mean a trinity doctrine, since the Father is greater then the Son. Also if the Holy Spirit is a Person, then He is the Father of Jesus. And we do know that is not so.
Peace and Love IreneThere is an error here.”The Father is greater than the Son” is incorrect. Jesus said, “the least shall be the greatest in the Kingdom of God”.TK
Hi TK,
The greater blesses the lesser[heb7]The least joined with Jesus will be one with the greatest IN that Kingdom OF GOD.
Marty said:
Quote Hi TC: If you are saying that Jesus is God, then that is altering the gospel.
God through the Apostle Peter revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16) Why is that so hard to understand?
Love in Christ,
MartyTo say that a comma SHOULD be there is your way of trying to alter what it says. If there is no comma there in the greek (which there isn't) then you are trying to alter it with your own opinion.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/tit2.pdf
~ This is a link to Titus chapter 2 for the Greek interlinear. There is NO comma. Therefore, there should not be one.
TC27
Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 03 2009,22:25) There is an error here.”The Father is greater than the Son” is incorrect. Jesus said, “the least shall be the greatest in the Kingdom of God”.TK
So when John said that the Father is greater then He is, is Wrong? I rather believe the Scripture then you.
John 14:28 ” You have heard Me say to you:” If you loved Me, you would rejoice because” I an going to the Father,” for the Father is greater then I.”
In Chapter 5:19 He said:” Most assuredly I say to you,” the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father
do for whatever does the Son also does in like manner. What you are quoting has nothing to do what the Son or the Father is. Who will go into the Kingdom? We are talking here about the future Kingdom where Jesus and the Saints will rule for a thousand years. There the the least will be greater then the first.
Peace and Love IreneTC27……….Show us one scripture where Jesus said you cant find (ANY) but we can find where He said “FOR (THOU) ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. What part of that you don't understand and believe. If Jesus said someone else is the (ONLY) True GOD , why can you believe it, Is it because you have been so indoctrinated in the false teaching of the Trinity you are unable to accept what Jesus himself said. And why would you want to use the MURDER Calvin's Name of anything? Read (OUT OF THE FLAMES) the word for word trial of Micheal Servetus and tell us what you then think of John Calvin. IMO you have accepted the LIE mentioned in 2Thes 2, that Jesus who sets in the temple of GOD is a GOD, which He will abolish with his own mouth when He return as scripture says. All who preach Jesus as a GOD have been deluded in their minds by God , as it says because they do not recieve the love of the truth. Read the post on the MAN OF SIN.
peace and love………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,06:07) Paladin said: Quote Because Greek has no past tense, there is often confusion as to what is being said when relating events that are in OUR past. It has aorist, a tense of accomplishment, but no past tense. Aorist tells us if a task or action was started (or in progress); or if it was completed at the time of the telling (Aorist 1 & Aorist 2); Or if it was taking place at the time of the telling (present tense); or if it was yet to be done at the time of writing (future tense). Paladin,
Please cite your source. You are wrong about the Greek aorist tense,Quote The function of the aorist is a matter of tremendous importance. The time of the action is past. The kind of action is punctiliar. Thus is observed the difference between the imperfect and the aorist. The imperfect indicates continuous action in past time (Essentials of New Testament Greek, Ray Summers, Broadman Press, p. 66) You are essentially saying that the aorist and the imperfect function the same and they do not. The aorist does NOT speak of action “in progress” as you say. It indicates completed action in past time. What you are peddling is Paladinian Greek and not new testament Greek. Therefore, your entire commentary on Philippians 2 is blatantly false! Again, show your source.
thinker
I am wearied by the constant questioning of my so called
“Greek credentials” when all you have to offer in rebuttal, is the errors of commentaries.A.T.ROBERTSON; A GRAMMAR OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT; P846
The future was probably a late development in the language, and other devices were at first used, like the Present Indicative, the Perfect Indicative, the Aorist Subjunctive…(as a) vivid transfer of the action to the future by the timeless Aorist.A.T.ROBERTSON; A GRAMMAR OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT; P847
The Greek indicative, as can be seen, is not the exact equivalent of any tense in any other language. It has nuances all its own, many of them difficult or well-nigh impossible to reproduce in English.Certainly we cannot say that the English translations have been successful with the Greek Aorist.
A.T.ROBERTSON; A GRAMMAR OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT; P848
As a matter of fact, the Greek Aorist is translatable into almost every English tense except the imperfectAorist subjunctive and Optative; There is only relative time (future) and that is not due to the tense at all. The Subjunctive is future in relation to the speaker, as is often true of the Optative, though the Optative standpoint is then more remote, a sort of future from the standpoint of the past.
A.T.ROBERTSON; A GRAMMAR OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT; P849
The modern Greek preserves clearly the distinction between punctiliar and linear action in the subjunctive and uses the Aorist and Present side by side to show it.The point is that the Aorist subjunctive or Optative is used as a matter of course unless durative (linear) action is to be emphasized or (as rarely) the completed state is to be stressed (Perfect).
EXAMPLES OF AORIST NOT EXPRESSING PAST TENSE
Here is the aorist effected by a future “if” affect.not past tense.
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother [amarteesee – subj. aor.act = shall trespass] against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he [akousee – subj. aor.act = shall hear] thee, thou [ekerdeesaa indicative aorist active = hast gained] thy brother.Aorist depicting a “possible” solution.not past tense.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may [stathee – subjunctive aorist active = be established].Aorist effected by “possible” outcome i.,e., “if this, if that.” not past tense.
Mat 18:17 And if he [parakousee – subjunctive aorist active = shall neglect to hear] them, tell it unto the church: but if he [parakousee – subjunctive aorist active = neglect to hear] the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.Aorist effected by “if” situation, not past tense.
1 Cor 7:28 But and if thou [gameesees – subjunctive aorist active 2nd s = marry], thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin [geemee – subjunctive aorist active 3rd s = marry], she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.Aorist effected by “if” condition – not past tense.
John 14:3 And if I [poreuthw – subjunctive aorist passive deponent = go] and [etoimasw subjunctive aorist active = prepare] a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.Devil leaves [present], angels came [aorist] AFTER present action and ministered [imperfect]
Mat 4:11 Then the devil [aphieesin historical present] leaveth him, and, behold, angels
[proseelthon aor.act] came and [dieekonoun imperfect active] ministered unto him.Present action followed by aorist future event; then present followed by present active.
Mat 6:2 Therefore when thou [poiees – subjunctive present active = doest] thine alms, do not [salpisees – subjunctive aorist active = sound a trumpet] before thee, as the hypocrites [poiousin – indicative present active = do] in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They [apecousin indicative present active = have] their reward.There is no excuse for alleged “scholars” to be making such erroneous assumptions as have been offered in supposed rebuttal to my remarks. Why don't you try a little original research for yourself before you jump my case about anything?
Quote (Gene @ July 03 2009,06:31) TC27……….Show us one scripture where Jesus said you cant find (ANY) but we can find where He said “FOR (THOU) ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. What part of that you don't understand and believe. If Jesus said someone else is the (ONLY) True GOD , why can you believe it, Is it because you have been so indoctrinated in the false teaching of the Trinity you are unable to accept what Jesus himself said. And why would you want to use the MURDER Calvin's Name of anything? Read (OUT OF THE FLAMES) the word for word trial of Micheal Servetus and tell us what you then think of John Calvin. IMO you have accepted the LIE mentioned in 2Thes 2, that Jesus who sets in the temple of GOD is a GOD, which He will abolish with his own mouth when He return as scripture says. All who preach Jesus as a GOD have been deluded in their minds by God , as it says because they do not recieve the love of the truth. Read the post on the MAN OF SIN. peace and love………………..gene
Gene,Read Philippians chapter 2. Read Titus 2:13. Read Hebrews chapter 1. Read Revelation chapter 1. I am not indoctrinated. Philippians 2 states that Jesus made himself nothing. This means he chose to be lesser than the Father. Then it goes on to read that Jesus was exalted to the highest place. Now, if the verse that says, “the Father is greater than I,” was intended to be the eternal truth, then Jesus could not have been exalted to a position that is the highest place, which is EQUAL to God. The Father was greater for the time that Jesus took on the form of man, but when his work was finished he was exalted to equality with the Father, and since we have only one God in the highest power, Jesus must be God. We do not have two equal mighty powers. There is only one. Therefore, Jesus and God cannot both be in the highest place unless Jesus and God are ONE. Jesus is God.
Gene,
By the way Paul and David were murderers. Why don't you throw their teachings out the window too?
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,02:05) Marty said: Quote Hi TC: If you are saying that Jesus is God, then that is altering the gospel.
God through the Apostle Peter revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16) Why is that so hard to understand?
Love in Christ,
MartyTo say that a comma SHOULD be there is your way of trying to alter what it says. If there is no comma there in the greek (which there isn't) then you are trying to alter it with your own opinion.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/tit2.pdf
~ This is a link to Titus chapter 2 for the Greek interlinear. There is NO comma. Therefore, there should not be one.
TC27
JESUS SAID IN JOHN 10:30 I AND MY FATHER ORE ONEQuote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 04 2009,04:08) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,02:05) Marty said: Quote Hi TC: If you are saying that Jesus is God, then that is altering the gospel.
God through the Apostle Peter revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16) Why is that so hard to understand?
Love in Christ,
MartyTo say that a comma SHOULD be there is your way of trying to alter what it says. If there is no comma there in the greek (which there isn't) then you are trying to alter it with your own opinion.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/tit2.pdf
~ This is a link to Titus chapter 2 for the Greek interlinear. There is NO comma. Therefore, there should not be one.
TC27
JESUS SAID IN JOHN 10:30 I AND MY FATHER ORE ONE
All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it?When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.
Paladin daid:
Quote Tell me somethng thinker; In the following verses, which is the past tense?
John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.In the phrase “that ye may know,” the word “Know” is “gnwte”
gnwte is Subjunctive aorist active, but it certainly is NOT past tense.
The GREEK HAS NO PAST TENSE. It is TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH past tense, but that is not the same thing, because here is one of many exceptions, where it is NOT translated into English past tense.
I do not say this to cause you distress, I say this to help you understand where I am coming from.
Look at it again, and consider –
“though ye believe not me, believe the works: THAT YE MAY KNOW, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
“That ye may know” is in no way considered “past tense” but it is Greek Subjunctive Aorist.
A.T.Robertson has several pages on this subject. And that is just ONE of many Greek sources materials.
Paladin,
You fail to distinguish between the subjunctive aorist and the indicative aorist. The indicative aorist is equivalent to our past tense verb. For example,Κατὰ πίστιν ἀπέθανον οὗτοι πάντες
All these died in faithThe verb is 2 aorist indicative.
Philippians 2 says that Jesus emptied Himself. The verb is 1 aorist indicative.
ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος: καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος
The verb “emptied” is ndicative and is therefore equivalent to the English past tense verb. That you refer to many sources does not qualify you to exegete the Greek. So be weary with me all you want. I will continue to expose your smokescreens directed toward the unlearned. Your commentary of Philippians 2 is blatantly false. You need to remember that I took two years of Greek in College. So you can't pull one over me.
thinker
Bodhitharta said:
Quote All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it? When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.
Bod,
It is possible for a husband and a wife to be one as you say in unity of purpose. But you fail to see that one has MANY meanings. For example, one can refer to the number 1. It can also mean one mind. It can mean unity of purpose. And it can mean one entity with different parts Here is an example. There is one class, but the class consists of many students. There is one God that contains three persons. It really isn't that hard.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:37) Bodhitharta said: Quote All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it? When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.
Bod,
It is possible for a husband and a wife to be one as you say in unity of purpose. But you fail to see that one has MANY meanings. For example, one can refer to the number 1. It can also mean one mind. It can mean unity of purpose. And it can mean one entity with different parts Here is an example. There is one class, but the class consists of many students. There is one God that contains three persons. It really isn't that hard.
TC27
Hi TC:We who are born again Christians are all members of the body of Christ from the head on down to the tiniest member, and so the scriptures state:
Quote Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 03 2009,10:49) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:37) Bodhitharta said: Quote All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it? When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.
Bod,
It is possible for a husband and a wife to be one as you say in unity of purpose. But you fail to see that one has MANY meanings. For example, one can refer to the number 1. It can also mean one mind. It can mean unity of purpose. And it can mean one entity with different parts Here is an example. There is one class, but the class consists of many students. There is one God that contains three persons. It really isn't that hard.
TC27
Hi TC:We who are born again Christians are all members of the body of Christ from the head on down to the tiniest member, and so the scriptures state:
Quote Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I never denied that. Your statement is irrelevant.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:53) Quote (942767 @ July 03 2009,10:49) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:37) Bodhitharta said: Quote All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it? When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.
Bod,
It is possible for a husband and a wife to be one as you say in unity of purpose. But you fail to see that one has MANY meanings. For example, one can refer to the number 1. It can also mean one mind. It can mean unity of purpose. And it can mean one entity with different parts Here is an example. There is one class, but the class consists of many students. There is one God that contains three persons. It really isn't that hard.
TC27
Hi TC:We who are born again Christians are all members of the body of Christ from the head on down to the tiniest member, and so the scriptures state:
Quote Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I never denied that. Your statement is irrelevant.
TC27
Hi TC:God is a Spirit of love.
Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,05:40) Paladin daid: Quote Tell me somethng thinker; In the following verses, which is the past tense?
John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.In the phrase “that ye may know,” the word “Know” is “gnwte”
gnwte is Subjunctive aorist active, but it certainly is NOT past tense.
The GREEK HAS NO PAST TENSE. It is TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH past tense, but that is not the same thing, because here is one of many exceptions, where it is NOT translated into English past tense.
I do not say this to cause you distress, I say this to help you understand where I am coming from.
Look at it again, and consider –
“though ye believe not me, believe the works: THAT YE MAY KNOW, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
“That ye may know” is in no way considered “past tense” but it is Greek Subjunctive Aorist.
A.T.Robertson has several pages on this subject. And that is just ONE of many Greek sources materials.
Paladin,
You fail to distinguish between the subjunctive aorist and the indicative aorist. The indicative aorist is equivalent to our past tense verb. For example,Κατὰ πίστιν ἀπέθανον οὗτοι πάντες
All these died in faithThe verb is 2 aorist indicative.
Philippians 2 says that Jesus emptied Himself. The verb is 1 aorist indicative.
ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος: καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος
The verb “emptied” is ndicative and is therefore equivalent to the English past tense verb. That you refer to many sources does not qualify you to exegete the Greek. So be weary with me all you want. I will continue to expose your smokescreens directed toward the unlearned. Your commentary of Philippians 2 is blatantly false. You need to remember that I took two years of Greek in College. So you can't pull one over me.
thinker
OOOhhhh!!!!!YOU went to (gasp) COLLLLEJJJ!!
Ooops. I just barfed myself. gotta go. too much excitement.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:37) Bodhitharta said: Quote All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it? When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.
Bod,
It is possible for a husband and a wife to be one as you say in unity of purpose. But you fail to see that one has MANY meanings. For example, one can refer to the number 1. It can also mean one mind. It can mean unity of purpose. And it can mean one entity with different parts Here is an example. There is one class, but the class consists of many students. There is one God that contains three persons. It really isn't that hard.
TC27
Okay, so when you say that God died for your sins you just mean that 1 part of God died for your sins, right?So in reality 2/3 of God did not die for your sins only 1/3 died for your sins so one part of God was dead and two parts were alive right?
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