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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,06:05) t8 Yes I have had a landlord,
As you have said. Jesus being lord has not negated that you had a landlord who is also a lord, but not Lord of all.There is something in that for you of you wish to see it.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,06:05) ”THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE!”.
Yes and yet you cannot guess who that one is can you.Hint:
John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Why argue against eternal life WJ?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 30 2011,06:08) t8 said: Quote There are many lords. Have you ever had a landlord?
This is the best intellect HN can offer?KJ
Sometimes it is the simple things that confound the self-confessed wise.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,06:13) Sure I am and in my time I will answer. All I was doing is pointing out how you and Mike whined about others not answering questions when more than once you and Mike have avoided answering questions yourself. That seemed a little hypocritical of you guys, don't you think? I will show you soon what it is I am talking about. I am a little busy right now but “I'll be back” (The Terminator).
WJ
Not true WJ.I do not avoid questions.
I miss questions because there are too many topics to check them all. But I refuse to avoid questions because it is not about my pride, but my understanding of what is true. Because my priority is the latter, I make sure that I can answer all, in case I am wrong and need to change something. After all is that not in my own interest?
That said, even the questions I miss will be noticed eventually either by it being posted in a topic I do read, by being PMed or notified about it in some way, or being put in the Hot Seat.
Why else do you think the Hot Seat was a good idea and implemented it. Surely I wouldn't implement something that was going to make me accountable for things that I wished to avoid?
Think about it WJ. That action is not in line with your understanding of this situation is it?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2011,13:05) But you believe there are many gods don't you t8? ”THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE!”.
Those are Pauls words BTW.
How can that ONE and ONLY God be “The God of gods” if there are no others? How can His first commandment be to place none of the other gods before Him if there are no other gods?And why don't you post the REST of Paul's words? He clearly tells us who this ONE GOD is, doesn't he? I can't remember who he says it is, Keith. Could you look it up and tell me?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,06:13) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 28 2011,20:45) This was his post: Quote No
It points out the 'hypocrosy” of those who claim they answer all questions when they don't themselves. .That would include you t8 for not answering questions after scolding others for not doing so.
WJ
So WJ, you are indeed accountable to your same measure.
Sure I am and in my time I will answer.All I was doing is pointing out how you and Mike whined about others not answering questions when more than once you and Mike have avoided answering questions yourself. That seemed a little hypocritical of you guys, don't you think? I will show you soon what it is I am talking about. I am a little busy right now but “I'll be back” (The Terminator).
WJ
Keith,Posters should not require other posters toanswer questions unless it is an agreed upon term in a one on one debate. we are under no contract here and should be able to come and go as we lease and post or answer questions when we please.
I ask questions but I NEVER require an answer. Neither do I beat my chest if someone does not answer me.
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2011,21:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2011,13:05) But you believe there are many gods don't you t8? ”THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE!”.
Those are Pauls words BTW.
How can that ONE and ONLY God be “The God of gods” if there are no others? How can His first commandment be to place none of the other gods before Him if there are no other gods?
Mike, exactly that is why they are not gods at all unless they are false gods or unless the word “eloyim” can mean “ruler, leader, judge, etc. and not god at all.Yep that is what the scriptures teach. “NO GOD BUT ONE”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2011,21:50) And why don't you post the REST of Paul's words? He clearly tells us who this ONE GOD is, doesn't he? I can't remember who he says it is, Keith. Could you look it up and tell me?
Sure, and what do we find in those verses are the Father and Jesus are the One God and One Lord both sharing divine attributes.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2011,19:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,06:05) t8 Yes I have had a landlord,
As you have said. Jesus being lord has not negated that you had a landlord who is also a lord, but not Lord of all.There is something in that for you of you wish to see it.
T8Do you call anyone your “Lord”?
Did the followers of Jesus call anyone else “their Lord”?
So in other words this is a logical fallacy to say that there are any other Lords for us, since no one is our Lord except God?
T8 is God your Lord?
This is one of those easy yes or no answers. Lets see if you answer.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,15:00) Sure, and what do we find in those verses are the Father and Jesus are the One God and One Lord both sharing divine attributes.
Really? Show me ALL of those scriptures that teach us that Jesus and the Father are the One God. One at a time please.In fact, I'll start a debate thread where you can “teach” me about these scriptures if you like. Of you can do it here, in our now defunct debate thread.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,20:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,15:00) Sure, and what do we find in those verses are the Father and Jesus are the One God and One Lord both sharing divine attributes.
Really? Show me ALL of those scriptures that teach us that Jesus and the Father are the One God. One at a time please.In fact, I'll start a debate thread where you can “teach” me about these scriptures if you like. Of you can do it here, in our now defunct debate thread.
mike
MikeThere is no need to start anymore threads.
We can just go over one of your proof text, 1 Cor 8:4-6 if you want.
My first 2 questions for you are…
“Is Jesus your “Only kurious” (One lord)?”
“Is the Father your “Only theos” (One god)?”
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,04:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,20:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,15:00) Sure, and what do we find in those verses are the Father and Jesus are the One God and One Lord both sharing divine attributes.
Really? Show me ALL of those scriptures that teach us that Jesus and the Father are the One God. One at a time please.In fact, I'll start a debate thread where you can “teach” me about these scriptures if you like. Of you can do it here, in our now defunct debate thread.
mike
MikeThere is no need to start anymore threads.
We can just go over one of your proof text, 1 Cor 8:4-6 if you want.
My first 2 questions for you are…
“Is Jesus your “Only kurious” (One lord)?”
“Is the Father your “Only theos” (One god)?”
WJ
Quote God, the Father, and the Lord. Jesus Christ Paul's letters generally followed the literary patterns of that day. … Paul followed contemporary epistolary practice by including certain stereotyped forms in his introductory formulae, thanksgivings, and farewells. In these sections he often utilized the formula, `God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,' or a variation of it. … Thus, his typical salutation read: `Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ' … Paul designated both God the Father and the Lord Jesus as dispensers of grace and peace to the Church. … God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ bring these blessings into men's lives by faith. They are UNIFIED IN FUNCTION. Such a connection is possible only if God and the Lord RESIDE AT THE SAME LEVEL in Paul's thought … One final factor needs to be mentioned. The phrase `God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,' present in Paul's salutations, thanksgivings, and other doxological passages, indicates a FUNCTIONAL IDENTITY between the Father and the Lord. They are JOINTLY THE SOURCE OF GRACE AND PEACE. Praise, thanksgiving, and blessing belong to them.” (Capes, D.B., 1992, “Old Testament Yahweh Texts in Paul's Christology,” J.C.B. Mohr: Tübingen, Germany, pp.62-64, 68). “[Gal 1:3] This grace and peace come from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. It is probable that by the common construction known as chiasmus (which could be translated as an 'x-shaped' construction), the source of grace is seen as Christ, and the source of peace as God the Father. Again, however, the main theological point is the close association of Christ with God. Indeed, the use of the word Kyrios, 'Lord', as a title of Christ would in itself be sufficient to assure this. Much study has been devoted to this Greek word, the one chosen by the early translators into Greek of the Hebrew Bible to stand for the divine name YHWH, which might not be pronounced by the pious Jew, and for which the Hebrew adonai, 'my Lord', had already been substituted. Kyrios varied in meaning from the polite 'sir', used in formal address to a stranger, to the full sense of 'Lord', in confession of the deity of Christ. When the early Christians used the phrase, 'Jesus is Lord' [Rom 10:9; 1Cor 12:3], as a baptismal confession, they cannot have meant less than this.” (Cole, R.A., 1989, “The Letter of Paul to the Galatians: An Introduction and Commentary,” The Tyndale New Testament commentaries, [1965], Inter-Varsity Press Leicester: UK, Second edition, p.70).
“[1Th 1:1] God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The combination of both terms (a. God the Father, b. the Lord Jesus Christ) after one preposition (in; that is grounded in) would seem to indicate that the two are entirely co-ordinate, that is, that the reference is to the first and to the second person of the Holy Trinity. Note also the trinitarian character of verses 3-5. Hence, the third person (Holy Spirit), mentioned in verse 5, is implied already in verse 1. Paul often mentions the three together in series of closely connected passages (II Thess. 2:13, 14; I Cor. 12:4-6; II Cor. 13:14; Eph. 2:18; 3:2-5; 3:14-17; 4:4-6; 5:18-20). In referring to the second person the full name is used here: the Lord Jesus Christ. In the LXX the name Lord (kurios) translates Jehovah, the God of Israel. It is more often the rendering of Jehovah than of anything else. (At times it is the equivalent of Adon, Adonai, Baal, etc.) Now the Jews were strict monotheists. Yet Paul, though himself a Jew, again and again gives to Jesus the title Lord. This shows that, in the thinking of the apostle, Jesus is just as fully divine as is God the Father: one and the same essence is possessed by the Father and by the Son (also by the Spirit, II Cor. 13:14).” (Hendriksen, W., 1955, “1 & 2 Thessalonians,” New Testament Commentary, Banner of Truth: Edinburgh UK, British edition, 1972, pp.40-41. Emphasis original).
“But there was a far stronger reason for the application of the Greek term `Lord' to Jesus than that which was found in its general currency among Greek-speaking peoples. The religious use of the term was not limited to the pagan cults, but appears also, and if anything even more firmly established, in the Greek Old Testament. The word `Lord' is used by the Septuagint to translate the `Jahwe' of the Hebrew test. It would be quite irrelevant to discuss the reasons which governed the translators in their choice of this particular word. No doubt some word for `Lord' was required by the associations which had already clustered around the Hebrew word. And various reasons may be suggested for the choice of `kyrios' rather than some other Greek word meaning `lord' [As, for example, despotes] Possibly the root meaning of `kyrios' better expressed the idea which was intended; perhaps, also, a religious meaning had already been attached to `kyrios,' which the other words did not possess. At any rate, whatever may have been the reason, `kyrios' was the word which was chosen. And the fact is of capital importance. For it was among the readers of the Septuagint that Christianity first made its way. The Septuagint was the Bible of the Jewish synagogues, and in the synagogues the reading of it was heard not only by Jews but also by hosts of Gentiles, the `God-fearers' of the Book of Acts. It was with the `God-fearers' that the Gentile mission began. And even where there were Gentile converts who had not passed at all through the school of the synagogue in the very earliest period perhaps such converts were few-even then the Septuagint was at once used in their instruction. Thus when the Christian missionaries used the word `Lord' of Jesus, their hearers knew at once what they meant. They knew at once that Jesus occupied a place which is occupied only by God. For the word `Lord' is used countless times in the Greek scriptures as the holiest name of the covenant God of Israel, and these passages were applied freely to Jesus.” (Machen, J.G., 1925, “The Origin of
Paul's Religion: The James Sprunt Lectures Delivered at Union Theological Seminary in Virginia,” Eerdmans: Grand Rapids MI, Reprinted, 1965, pp.307-308).“[1Th 1:1] Also peculiar to these Epistles is the phrase in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (Paul usually says 'in Christ'). It is striking (a) that he speaks of the Father and the Lord in one breath (no-one else could be linked with the Father in this way), (b) that he joins the two under one preposition in, and © that he expresses the closeness of the tie linking the Thessalonians with their God in terms of Christ as well as the Father. 'The association could hardly be closer' (Ward). This high view of Jesus is continued with the use of Lord and Christ. Lord was used in LXX as the translation of the divine name and it was commonly used of deity in other religions (as well as having less significant uses). It points to a very high place. Christ means 'anointed' and is equivalent to 'Messiah'. And all this in a letter written only about twenty years after the crucifixion. From very early times Jesus was seen to have the highest place.” (Morris, L.L., 1984, “The Epistles of Paul to the Thessalonians: An Introduction and Commentary,” Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, [1956], Inter-Varsity Press: Leicester UK, Second Edition, p.41).
“[1Th 1:1] In God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (en theoi patri kai kurioi Jesou Christoi). This church is grounded in (en, with the locative case) and exists in the sphere and power of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. No article in the Greek, for both theoi patri and kurioi Jesou Christoi are treated as proper names. In the very beginning of this first Epistle of Paul we meet his Christology. He at once uses the full title, `Lord Jesus Christ,' with all the theological content of each word. The name `Jesus' (Saviour, Matt. 1:21) he knew, as the `Jesus of history,' the personal name of the Man of Galilee, whom he had once persecuted (Acts 9:5), but whom he at once, after his conversion, proclaimed to be `the Messiah,' (ho Christos, Acts 9:22). This position Paul never changed. In the great sermon at Antioch in Pisidia which Luke has preserved (Acts 13:23) Paul proved that God fulfilled his promise to Israel by raising up `Jesus as Saviour' (sotera Iesoun). Now Paul follows the Christian custom by adding Christos (verbal from chrio, to anoint) as a proper name to Jesus (Jesus Christ) as later he will often say `Christ Jesus' (Col. 1:1). And he dares also to apply kurios (Lord) to `Jesus Christ,' the word appropriated by Claudius (Dominus, Kurios) and other emperors in the emperor-worship, and also common in the Septuagint for God as in Psa. 32:1f. (quoted by Paul in Rom. 4:8). Paul uses Kurios of God (I Cor. 3:5) or of Jesus Christ as here. In fact, he more frequently applies it to Christ when not quoting the Old Testament as in Rom. 4:8. And here he places `the Lord Jesus Christ' in the same category and on the same plane with `God the father.' There will be growth in Paul's Christology and he will never attain all the knowledge of Christ for which he longs (Phil. 3:10-12), but it is patent that here in his first Epistle there is no `reduced Christ' for Paul. He took Jesus as `Lord' when he surrendered to Jesus on the Damascus Road: `And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said to me' (Acts 22:10). It is impossible to understand Paul without seeing clearly this first and final stand for the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul did not get this view of Jesus from current views of Mithra or of Isis or any other alien faith. The Risen Christ became at once for Paul the Lord of his life.” (Robertson, A.T., 1931, “Word Pictures in the New Testament: Volume IV: The Epistles of Paul,” Broadman Press: Nashville TN, p.6. Emphasis original).
“[2Th 1:2] From God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (apo theou patros kai Kuriou lesou Christou). … Note absence of article both after en and apo, though both God and Lord Jesus Christ are definite. In both cases Jesus Christ is put on a par with God, though not identical. See on I Thess. 1:1 for discussion of words, but note difference between en, in the sphere of, by the power of, and apo, from, as the fountain head and source of grace and peace.” (Robertson, 1931, p.41. Emphasis original).
JA wishes to say;
Quote WJ or KJ or any trinny: Among many other verse, Acts 15:8 states that God gave the apostles the Holy Spirit.
Trinitarians say that the Holy Spirit IS God.
1) Did God give himself to them?
I'm really interested in how God gave his Son as a sacrifice to save mankind; and God gave us the Holy Spirit.
But there is not a single reference to God giving the Father? In fact, absolutely no reference to God doing ANYTHING WITH THE FATHER?
2) Do you find this strange or can you explain it?
3) Is the Father then, God? And the Holy Spirit is HIS SPIRIT which he can pour out onto worthy servants including Jesus?
4) Was Jesus a servant of God?
5) A servant of the Father such that he also poured out his Holy Spirit onto him at his baptism – and then gave it to him in Full at his ascention.
Jesus is the temporary HOLDER of the Holy Spirit of God and directs it onto whom he wills…
6) Is the Holy Spirit then a servant spirit of both the Father And the Son?
7)Is a servant equal to his master(s)?
8) If the holy spirit is not equal to the father or the son
9) how is it God Almighty?
10) Can a servant also be the God Almighty?
11) Is Jesus God almighty?
Quote My first 2 questions for you are… “Is Jesus your “Only kurious” (One lord)?”
“Is the Father your “Only theos” (One god)?”
WJ
Hi Keith,The answer to both is “NO, not literally”. But let's look at it in context:
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I notice t8 is trying to get through to you using “landlord”. I've tried showing you what is meant by “ONLY MASTER” in light of the fact that Paul says to respect and honor our earthly masters also. And I've even used this football analogy for you:
5For though there be that are called quarterbacks, whether in the NFC or in the AFC, (as there be quarterbacks many, and wide receivers many,)
6But to us in Arizona, there is but one Quarterback, Kurt Warner, and one wide receiver, Larry Fitzgerald.
Keith, am I saying that there are no other quarterbacks at all by saying there is “but one”? Of course not, because I've also just clearly stated that there are many quarterbacks. Therefore, my use of the word “one” is not to be taken literally, or else my prior sentence would have been a lie. Instead, my use of the word “one” merely emphasizes that Kurt Warner is the Quarterback above and beyond the other quarterbacks that I've already cleary acknowledged the existence of. For us in Arizona, among all of the quarterbacks, Kurt is the MAIN one, the BEST one, the MOST POWERFUL one, the one that we followed any time he was on TV.
Keith, I know that you understand these points that t8 and I are making to you. But let's deal with your pretend misunderstanding scripturally:
1. To have it your way, God is NOT the “God of gods” because there literally aren't any other gods except for Him alone.
2. Paul, and by proxy God, is flat out lying when he says there ARE many gods BOTH IN HEAVEN, and on earth.
3. Jesus cannot be considered a god at all, because literally, the ONLY god is THE FATHER ALONE.
4. There is nothing in this scripture to include Jesus into the “one God, the Father”.
So Keith, if you can't (won't) acknowledge what t8 and I are showing you, then you still lose, because THE FATHER is our one God…………..NOT JESUS, OR ANY COMBINATION OF THE TWO OF THEM.
Better you should just acknowledge what you know to be the truth of what Paul was saying, and move on to you next trinity “proof text”. Because this in no way includes Jesus into our “one God”, but instead lists him as SOMEONE OTHER THAN our “one God”.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2011,12:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2011,22:44) Mike There is no need to start anymore threads.
We can just go over one of your proof text, 1 Cor 8:4-6 if you want.
My first 2 questions for you are…
“Is Jesus your “Only kurious” (One lord)?”
“Is the Father your “Only theos” (One god)?”
WJ
Hi Keith,The answer to both is “NO, not literally”.
MikeWhat do you mean not literally?
Jesus is god but not literally?
Jesus is lord but not literally?
What kind of crap is that?
Give me a straight answer so we can move on.
“Is Jesus your “Only kurious” (One lord)?”
“Is the Father your “Only theos” (One god)?”
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2011,22:44) I notice t8 is trying to get through to you using “landlord”.
MikeYes and t8 does not call his landlord “his lord” or “his god” does he?
Therfore to t8 he has only “One lord” I would hope!
You and t8 are denying this to promote that the Bible is a book of gods or Polytheism.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2011,22:44)
5For though there be that are called quarterbacks, whether in the NFC or in the AFC, (as there be quarterbacks many, and wide receivers many,)6But to us in Arizona, there is but one Quarterback, Kurt Warner, and one wide receiver, Larry Fitzgerald.
Keith, am I saying that there are no other quarterbacks at all by saying there is “but one”? Of course not, because I've also just clearly stated that there are many quarterbacks.
But you left out verse 4…So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”.
In other words “to us” they are not lords and gods because we only have One!
But you and t8 insist that there are other gods and lords, Jesus being one of them.
Paul is saying the world has many idols (gods) that they call gods and lords but to us there is “NO GOD BUT ONE”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2011,22:44) Keith, am I saying that there are no other quarterbacks at all by saying there is “but one”?
You would be if you just said “there is no quarterback but One”, right? Am I missing something, or are you just playing dumb.If there is “Only One True Quarterback” then that simply means there are “No other True quarterbacks”, how is it that you and t8 cannot comprehend this?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,14:52)
But you left out verse 4…So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”.
So I did…………here, let me adjust for that verse:4About wearing shirts supporting others who are thought to be able to throw a good pass: We know that they are nothing at all in the world and that there is no quarterback but one. 5For though there be that are called quarterbacks, whether in the NFC or in the AFC, (as there be quarterbacks many, and wide receivers many,)
6But to us in Arizona, there is but one Quarterback, Kurt Warner, and one wide receiver, Larry Fitzgerald.
Now, let's deal with the part of the scripture that YOU consistently avoid:
……yet for us, there is but one God, THE FATHER……
Keith, this will be my first question to you in the “Final Showdown” category if you don't answer it DIRECTLY and HONESTLY right now:Keith, does Paul say our “one God” is Jesus, or any combination of Jesus and others? YES or NO?
Now, you seem to think that these gods Paul mentions refer only to idols because of verse 4. So, question #2:
Keith, do you suppose there exist idols in heaven?
mike
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