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Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,03:38) so you agree that it is not all who call on the name of the Lord that are true Believers 
?as scriptures saysPierre
Yes, to the same extent that there are no true scotsman.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,16:00) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,03:38) so you agree that it is not all who call on the name of the Lord that are true Believers ?as scriptures saysPierre
Yes, to the same extent that there are no true scotsman.
of cause ,you do not belong to the true Christian group ,Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,07:20) Hey All, Thanks for your posts. Everything each of you wrote is a slice of HISTORY, as recorded in the Bible.
I will ask each of you the following questions, and if the answer is YES to any of them, I will look deeper into it. If the answers are all NO, then my involvement in this discussion is over.
1. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should kill anyone?
2. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should rape anyone?
3. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should steal from anyone?
4. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should own slaves?
5. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should break the laws of the land (except in a case where man's law conflicts with God's)?
6. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should torture anyone?
7. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should use any kind of force at all to convert others to Christianity?
8. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should join the armed forces of their nation and go to war against other nations?
9. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should kill another human being, even in the matter of self defense? Or kill someone who robs from them?
10. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should hate their enemies, and wish bad upon them?
11. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should make dishonest gain at the expense of others?
If any of these result in an answer of “YES”, please let me know so we can discuss it further. If they don't, then there's not much more for me to say on the subject.
I know that “Christians” came to America a long time ago and TORTURED the native peoples until they agreed to convert. People's hands were chopped off in front of their children's eyes. Very brutal stuff.
I know that people kill in the name of God and the name of the Bible every day.
I know the list of those slain in the name of Jehovah goes on forever, and the “Biblical justifications” for those acts of violence are just as many.
But the bottom line is that the Bible doesn't teach ANYONE to do these things.
Thanks for your time,
mike
Hi Mike,The answer is yes to all of those if you believe the bible.
If history shows that God commanded any of those, why even bother reading the bible at all if you are going to blatantly ignore all of the commands of God?What is the use of his guide book if his followers are going to ignore his guidance.
You are only listening to two rules that his son gave and ignoring 613 that God himself gave because God gave them a long time ago. Well so did Jesus.
Tim
Okay guys, put up or shut up.
WHEN DID GOD SPECIFICALLY TELL ME, A 47 YEAR OLD MAN LIVING IN THE USA, TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS?
List the scripture that would apply to ME. (ONE scripture at a time, please.)
Mike
What part does not apply to you? For you to say this, one can only take it that you are a Pauline Christian, due to Paul changed all the previous practices. Now if you would admit that Pauline Christianity is what you practice then the conversation becomes null and void, for none of it would apply to you.
I don't deny anyone that feels the need to pick and choose what they believe, tis their own.
However, Christianity has set the standard, some just test the standard that has been set in place. It is really up close and personal with test the spirits in John.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,09:22) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,16:00) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,03:38) so you agree that it is not all who call on the name of the Lord that are true Believers ?as scriptures saysPierre
Yes, to the same extent that there are no true scotsman.
of cause ,you do not belong to the true Christian group ,Pierre
What is a true Christian group?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,10:18) Okay guys, put up or shut up. WHEN DID GOD SPECIFICALLY TELL ME, A 47 YEAR OLD MAN LIVING IN THE USA, TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS?
List the scripture that would apply to ME. (ONE scripture at a time, please.)
I don't know that God ever specifically told you anything Mike?What does that have to do with what you called his guidebook?
Tim
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,08:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,02:25) Now let the record reflect if you agree that children should be able to do whatever they feel. Spouses should be able to do whatever they feel
and workers should do whatever they feel
Did you ignore the whole “you can't beat your child to death, etc” point? You completely failed to address it.In any case, let me try this from another angle.
The key difference between parenting and owning a slave – as if the two could even be compared! – is that a parent is attempting to help the child become a mature, independent adult. A parent of a six month old child will control far more of the child's life than the parent of a six year old child, and so on. It's not about permanently exploiting the child for labor. It's about teaching the child to become his own master.
If you can't see the difference, then I truly hope that you don't have children.
As far as spouses go, I really hope that you don't have one, because your attitude towards marriage is quite oppressive. No, I do not forbid my spouse to do anything, nor does she forbid me to do anything. I voluntarily forgo certain things out of respect for her, not because she stands ready to beat me senseless if I disobey. (And, if I did someday decide that those “other things” were more important than her, then I would divorce her and go pursue them. It's all voluntary!)
It's called “love”, Bod. It really does make for a better marriage than being a controlling “master”. I hope, for your wife's sake, that you understand that.
As for employers, again, the key difference is whether or not I can quit my job at any time. I may do things that I don't like on my job because I want the money more than I want to look for another job. That's not the same thing as doing something with no choice to ever quit.
If the Chinese workers can only get out of their jobs via suicide, than they are, in fact, slaves. If you think that all employees are similarly disposed, than I would suggest that you talk to a lawyer about labor law.
Here's a way to make the distinction:
Slavery is a permanent condition, not a temporary hardship.
Keep repeating that to yourself until you understand it.
Actually slavery was temporary in most cases so you are wrong there.( slāv ) n. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
If a child is forced to do anything he is being treated like someone bound in servitude
If your spouse can have sex with anyone she pleases or do whatever she pleases in your household and you can do the same you are correct you are not slaves of one another but I don't think your wife would just let you have gay sex in her living room and say “Be free” and stay with you. You promised a certain servitude to be married otherwise we would not have people saying who is or is not a good spouse. If you are not a slave to love you don't even know what love is.
Slavery does not always entail the right to beat someone to death or even beat someone at all.
( slāv ) n. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
I am a proud Slave of God if I am not bound in servitude I cannot believe in God.
It does not matter much what binds us if we are bound and some of the strongest bonds are invisible such as Fear and Love.
Your thoughts on slavery are not inaccurate from a wordly stand point they are simply inaccurate from a more spiritually developed standpoint.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,08:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,14:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,06:47) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,13:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,04:06) Do parents treat their children as property? Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially)
And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock
I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary
And members of one's own cult, are they slaves too if necessary?Stuart
stu,bodso what is slavery,and what freedom ??
where is one starts and the other ends ??
Pierre
PierreYour freedom in the world is being a Slave to God.
bodyour religion make you a slave and is not helping you so see truth ,
and NO i am not a slave to my heavenly father but a son to him,
Pierre
Then you cannot follow Jesus who said he was a slave.Mark 10:44
and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.Matthew 20:27
and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,Romans 6:18
and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.Are you a slave of God?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,03:59) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,23:56) Hi Tim, it is you who does not believe the bible! “But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.” (2 Cor 3:15)
“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Hebrews 7:12)
Does this sound like condoning slavery?
“wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? Is not this the fast that I have chosen?
to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free,
and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor
that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou
hide not thyself from thine own flesh?” (Isaiah 58:5-7)How about this?
“He(YHVH) hath sent me(YA-shu-a) to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound;” (Isaiah 61:1)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDYou should not try to argue a well made point. The scripture you pointed out has nothing to do with slavery, those verses may have to do with abuse of persons in general but they are not proclaiming “End Slavery” While the Bible clearly states that God never needs any Sacrifice from anyone and you disregard that completely but then you completely delete a common practice and not only a common practice but as Tim pointed out an actual command and direction on how to get and keep slaves. He is right you do not believe in the Bible and if you don't why do you expect to convince others to believe in it.
Imagine a young intelligent person searching for the TRUTH of GOD and because he can read and comprehend clearly what he is reading asks for explanations on subjects he is not comfortable with only to be told “It's not really like that” what a great injustice to that person and to God because now the person has to either face an untruth (That they somehow are suddenly illiterate and without comprehension) or the unexplained truth (it really is like that) but if it's not really like that then ALL of it may not be like that.
You're argument only has validity if you argue the bible does not condone abuse of slaves but for a certainty it condones slavery and the language of condoning it:
Mark 10:44-46
New International Version (NIV)
44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
And even in this fact ED you really believe that Jesus as your slave should be killed to redeem you.
I believe that God set Jesus free
Hi BD,PLEASE ANSWER THESE TWO QUESTIONS FOR ME THEN OK?…
1) Why were animals sacrificed for sin?
2) How and why did YHVH give Adam and
Eve animal skins to cover their nakedness?B'shem
YHVHQuote (princess @ Jan. 19 2012,17:50) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,09:22) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,16:00) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,03:38) so you agree that it is not all who call on the name of the Lord that are true Believers ?as scriptures saysPierre
Yes, to the same extent that there are no true scotsman.
of cause ,you do not belong to the true Christian group ,Pierre
What is a true Christian group?
well you have to see : no true scotsman.Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,10:18) Okay guys, put up or shut up. WHEN DID GOD SPECIFICALLY TELL ME, A 47 YEAR OLD MAN LIVING IN THE USA, TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS?
List the scripture that would apply to ME. (ONE scripture at a time, please.)
When did God specifically tell you a 47 year old man living in the USA, That the Quran is wrong and Jesus had to die because of your sins?List the scripture (I'll wait)
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,07:25) WIT Now you seem to fall for the same disease you accuse ED and others of and that is not admitting the facts.
Good parents control every aspect of a child's life until the child reaches a certain age. The child has literally almost no freedom they are told what to eat and what to do, they will be punished in some way if they are disobedient, they are by definition SLAVES
Do you have any children or no any children that from birth were aloowed to do whatever they wanted?
Hi BD,In this, I agree with you brother! …“The truth is the truth regardless who says it.” ~ Ed J
Gal 4:1-2 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant,
though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.B'shem
YHVHQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,03:59) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,23:56) Hi Tim, it is you who does not believe the bible! “But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.” (2 Cor 3:15)
“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Hebrews 7:12)
Does this sound like condoning slavery?
“wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? Is not this the fast that I have chosen?
to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free,
and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor
that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou
hide not thyself from thine own flesh?” (Isaiah 58:5-7)How about this?
“He(YHVH) hath sent me(YA-shu-a) to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound;” (Isaiah 61:1)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDYou should not try to argue a well made point. The scripture you pointed out has nothing to do with slavery, those verses may have to do with abuse of persons in general but they are not proclaiming “End Slavery” While the Bible clearly states that God never needs any Sacrifice from anyone and you disregard that completely but then you completely delete a common practice and not only a common practice but as Tim pointed out an actual command and direction on how to get and keep slaves. He is right you do not believe in the Bible and if you don't why do you expect to convince others to believe in it.
Imagine a young intelligent person searching for the TRUTH of GOD and because he can read and comprehend clearly what he is reading asks for explanations on subjects he is not comfortable with only to be told “It's not really like that” what a great injustice to that person and to God because now the person has to either face an untruth (That they somehow are suddenly illiterate and without comprehension) or the unexplained truth (it really is like that) but if it's not really like that then ALL of it may not be like that.
You're argument only has validity if you argue the bible does not condone abuse of slaves but for a certainty it condones slavery and the language of condoning it:
Mark 10:44-46
New International Version (NIV)
44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
And even in this fact ED you really believe that Jesus as your slave should be killed to redeem you.
I believe that God set Jesus free
Hi BD,PLEASE ANSWER THESE TWO QUESTIONS FOR ME THEN OK?…
1) Why were animals sacrificed for sin?
2) How and why did YHVH give Adam and
Eve animal skins to cover their nakedness?B'shem
YHVH
I really believe that sacrificing an animal originated with God inspiring how to eat animals for food while at the same time learning the value of what you had to give up for food.Cain and abel weren't running around commiting sins and they weren't told to make an animal sacrifice (they were doing to different types of work)
Genesis 4:2
And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground.God did not ask them to perform a sacrifice.
as for this
Genesis 3:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them
The scripture does not mention any animal sacrifice or for that matter “Animal” skin.
It could have very well been the skin we wear today
Hi BD,
Although I don't agree with your answer to question #1, based on lots of other Scriptures,
I do, however, appreciate you giving me an answer to that question.But, I now have two follow-up questions for your answer
to question #2. How do you get animal skins without:1) Killing it. …and…
2) Shedding its blood?B'shem
YHVHQuote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 18 2012,17:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,10:18) Okay guys, put up or shut up. WHEN DID GOD SPECIFICALLY TELL ME, A 47 YEAR OLD MAN LIVING IN THE USA, TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS?
List the scripture that would apply to ME. (ONE scripture at a time, please.)
I don't know that God ever specifically told you anything Mike?What does that have to do with what you called his guidebook?
Tim
Okay Tim, Asana and Princess,Which one of those things am I PERSONALLY GUIDED to do by the scriptures?
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2012,12:18) Hi BD, Although I don't agree with your answer to question #1, based on lots of other Scriptures,
I do, however, appreciate you giving me an answer to that question.But, I now have two follow-up questions for your answer
to question #2. How do you get animal skins without:1) Killing it. …and…
2) Shedding its blood?B'shem
YHVH
The scripture I read didn't say “Animal” skinsKJV
Genesis 3:21
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.What version did you get that from?
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,07:54) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,00:07)
Hi Stuart,I appreciate your explanation. Would Christianity not
be better described as a direction rather than a delusion?What do you mean by a better 'personal philosophy of life',
you mean like writing poetry, or studying microbiology, or flying a plane?
You mean studying philosophy? Because I can't see how the other options compare?How can the belief in an imaginary sky friend help one to control oneself?
God bless
Ed J
So, what are these better options? Ed asked earlier how my philosophy of life was different from his. I think it is better to be skeptical, not accepting. That is the means by which humanity has progressed, and the only way we will get ourselves out of any messes we have got ourselves into. I don't think it is healthy to focus obsessively on gurus from the past. By all means the ideas of the ancients should be considered dispassionately for their worth, but making those ideas into your identity is to become a slave. I don't see any virtue in faith, the mentality of believing things without evidence. I don't see any evidence of intent in the universe, apart from the intent shown by us and other animals, such a view is acquired by being told there is a celestial conspiracy of supernatural beings, then reinterpreting what we see based on that assumption. That is what I mean by failing to see things as they really are. That is not a belief system that has beauty or truth.Stuart
Hi Stuart,Although that is NOT the question I asked, as you can see by the quote I have attached
to your response, it very well be the same answer; …so, is your answer still the same?Please answer my other question as well; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,07:34) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,22:34) Hi WIT, Remember, I said it wasn't in “the creation account”.
The bible account agrees with what Science now knows.The creation account (in the bible) told us about the Earths:
1. Earths Rotation. (Genesis 1:4)
2. The Earth is round. (Isaiah 40:42)
3. The orbit around the sun. (Job 26:7)
4. And even the Earth's axis tilt. (Gen.1:14)The bible told us about the universe:
5. It had a beginning. (which Science now calls the big bang) (Genesis 1:1)
6. The expansion of the universe. (confirmed by Edwin Hubble) (Isaiah 40:22)God bless
Ed J
Against my better judgment, I am going to respond to your nonsense here, because it is breathtakingly ludicrous.Quote 1. Earths Rotation. (Genesis 1:4) Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.(1)Really? That's the bible telling us the earth has rotation?
Not only is that a major stretch, it brings up a bigger problem:
(2)What light? There's no sun, moon, or stars until the 4th day. What physical light is being divided here between night and day?
(3)This is total apologetic nonsense.
Quote 2. The Earth is round. (Isaiah 40:42) Isaiah 40:22 (not 42, like you have above)
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.This is wishful thinking. The term used is circle, not sphere or ball. (And yes, there is a Hebrew word for ball. See Isaiah 22:18). Ancient people thought of the earth as a flat disk, (i.e. circle), floating on water, anchored by pillars. This verse does nothing to correct that thinking.
(4)At best, this verse is neutral.
Quote 3. The orbit around the sun. (Job 26:7) Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.Are you kidding me? This verse says nothing about the earth in relation to any other object, much less the sun. An orbit, by definition, must be in relation to the object it is orbiting around.
(5)This is an even bigger apologetic stretch than #1.
Quote 4. And even the Earth's axis tilt. (Gen.1:14) Genesis 1:14:
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years … “Now, you're just being silly. You think that because this verse references “seasons”, it means that the bible is informing us about the earth's tilt? Really?
So, when I stumble across a remote tribe in South America, and the tribe leader says, “Hey, we've got seasons around here,” that I should marvel at his scientific knowledge concerning the tilt of the earth?
(6)I think we have a winner for the biggest apologetic stretch of them all.
Quote 5. It had a beginning. (which Science now calls the big bang) (Genesis 1:1) News flash, Ed. Every creation myth known to man has a beginning to it. It's called story telling. Every story has a beginning, middle, and end. But, let's take a quick look at the verse anyway.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.(7)Earth on Day 1. Sun on Day 4. Yeah, that's a problem, Ed.
Quote 6. The expansion of the universe. (confirmed by Edwin Hubble) (Isaiah 40:22) Isaiah 40:22 (not 42, like you have above)
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.(8)How many tents do you know of that continually expand? One? Two? How about zero!
(9)Now, go back and look at that picture with the firmament spread out over the earth like – dare I say it! – like a tent!
(10)I'll leave it to the readers to decide which better fits this passage, but I am going to go ahead and mark it down as a stretch.
(11)Oh, and that picture also explains why the bible refers to water above the firmament, floodgates, pillars of the earth, etc.. You should keep it handy when you read through the bible.
You can thank me later.
Hi WIT,You don't like discoursing with me about the bible, because
I “solidly” refute the ludicrous claims you make against it!
Se here we go again. What I said was: “told us about“.1) Night and day is indicative of the the Earths rotation; do you deny this?
2) Genesis 1:16 is a reiteration of our “Sun” being created on day one. (Genesis 1:3)
3) God is not calling the Earth a circle, but instead describing a sphere;
a sphere (drawn on paper) is round as a circle is round, without shading THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.4) How else would you explain the relative fixed position of Earth to ignorant sheep herders of 3,000+ years ago?
5) Are not the seasons based on the axis tilt of the Earth? …You know this is true! …so squawk and complain all you want!
6) Science has finally caught up to the biblical account of the universe having a beginning, calling it “the big bang”.
7) See point #2.
8) A tent is descriptive of us eventually traveling to the stars to live any where we want in our u
niverse.
And spreading out is descriptive of our universes constant expansion within it.9) What for? …I answered your argument in point #8.
10) You calling it “a stretch” is just confirmation of the fit I have given to your argument. …thank you for your honesty!
11) Today even, we call a torrential rain, “a downpour”; yet it would be ludicrous to suggest someone is pouring out a bucket.
The term “opening the flood gates” is an idiom is indicative of water which is out of control.Do you really think 'YOUR DOUBTS' are going to sway anyone's faith toward atheism?
WIT, you have 'FAILED' MISERABLY' to prove any of your assertions of biblical errors!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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