Atheism

Blocked

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 16 2012,16:24)

How has the bible uniquely been of practical benefit to humanity in terms of helping human progress in this world?

The people who truly believe in and follow God, using the Bible as a guidebook, are the ones who don't join the army, don't go to war, don't kill people, don't steal, don't cheat on their taxes, do obey the laws of the land when they don't conflict with God's laws, etc. These people give to the poor and needy, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.

Now imagine the world was filled with nothing but people who follow the guidelines I mentioned above.

Unfortunately, the world is NOT filled with people like this; and even more unfortunately for Christians, many of the people who break the rules above claim to also be Christians.

Trust me WIT, if I had the power to create a community where every resident followed the guidelines of the Bible, and adhered to God's laws, you would surely be able to see a difference between us and the rest of the world.

So to answer your question, were people to actually adhere to the Biblical principles, you would be looking at a very different world today. The Bible is of great benefit, and if only it weren't for the billions of people in the world that don't adhere to its principles, you'd be able to clearly see this.

January 17, 2012 at 12:14 am#272794

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2012,08:35)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,07:53)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2012,07:41)

My claim is based on the idea that life begets life, also a biblical idea I believe.

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

How is it you claim life begets life, if you say life began from non-life? …is this not a contradiction?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Tell me what you think “life” means. Is a virus an example of life?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

By our definition, I would say yes; but that might not include the biblical definition.
Life is first mentioned in Gen.1:20. Foliage(Herbs, trees and grasses) in Gen.1:11-12
is not listed as life, only as meat; it may be that only oxygen based life is listed as life.
Lev.17:11: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood:” Trees don't have “blood” only 'sap'.

(Reference) Genesis 1:20-21 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving
creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth
abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas,
and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2012 at 1:24 am#272812

Stu

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2012,09:05)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2012,15:43)

Between the two of us, you are the only one claiming you KNOW how life began. I do not know.

Well then, hush up and listen to those of us who DO know, okay?

The “mechanism” is much too advanced for even your great brain, and therefore was too advanced for Moses and his countrymen. So we are not really given the means by which God caused life to exist, only that He did.

The mechanism is “God created”.

I'll leave it to others to decide whether your claim to know holds any water.

If you are trying to convince me, you have failed dismally.

I am not impressed by platitudes, and if as a society we needed to rely on your kind of knowledge we would still be living the same lifestyle as the ancient ignorant Jews that wrote what you are writing here, 5000 years ago.

Christianity: the religion for hypocrites who want to drive cars and type into computers but don't want to acknowledge that science is the only means we have that reliably leads to progress or any real universal understanding.

See WiT for more details.

Stuart

January 17, 2012 at 1:25 am#272814

Stu

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,10:14)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2012,08:35)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,07:53)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2012,07:41)

My claim is based on the idea that life begets life, also a biblical idea I believe.

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

How is it you claim life begets life, if you say life began from non-life? …is this not a contradiction?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Tell me what you think “life” means. Is a virus an example of life?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Do you not have an opinion or your own?

Stuart

January 17, 2012 at 4:41 am#272840

Participant

Hi Stuart,

Sure, what do you want to know?

Your friend,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2012 at 11:23 am#272869

TimothyVI

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2012,09:34)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 16 2012,16:24)

How has the bible uniquely been of practical benefit to humanity in terms of helping human progress in this world?

Mike,
Nearly half of your guidebook was God telling his people to go to war, kill people, and steal what was theirs, and people have continued to do exactly that since it's inception.

Tim

January 17, 2012 at 11:49 am#272875

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2012,11:25)

Do you not have an opinion or your own?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Like I told you before, when I was twelve I seen
that I was not able to control myself, and that the
firmness of what was right and wrong kept changing.

Like an alcoholic has never had to much drink while they
are drinking, wrong doing was always beyond my practices.

Their are laws, and because of these laws I was slowly headed
for jail. As I said I could not control myself. So I called out to God,
and said God if you are real, I need your help. As in where the
proverbial “line in the sand” is, and helping me adhere to it.

Now let me ask you a question, Stuart. If Christians are
(according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…

How can becoming delusional help?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2012 at 1:48 pm#272908

Stu

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:49)

Now let me ask you a question, Stuart. If Christians are
(according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…

How can becoming delusional help?

Because the power of suggestion is strong, and because you have adopted a totalitarian belief system which will force you to override other behaviours because of your zealous adoption of its beliefs, absurd as they are. But then it could work equally well to join the army. I don't know, I've never been in that situation of desperation, I'm grateful to report.

And I agree that christianity is better than living a destructive lifestyle. But it is a third-rate philosophy that demands you accept a human sacrifice as a cure for a disease that doesn't exist. So I would have thought once christianity has given you a hand out of the gutter, it would be a short matter of time before you would want to find something substantially better for a personal philosophy of life. Maybe if more people had a better preparation in life, for example a better education, then fewer would reach only as far as christianity for a hand out of trouble.

Stuart

January 17, 2012 at 2:07 pm#272914

Participant

Hi Stuart,

I appreciate your explanation. Would Christianity not
be better described as a direction rather than a delusion?

What do you mean by a better 'personal philosophy of life',
you mean like writing poetry, or studying microbiology, or flying a plane?
You mean studying philosophy? Because I can't see how the other options compare?

How can the belief in an imaginary sky friend help one to control oneself?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2012 at 2:49 pm#272926

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 18 2012,06:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:49)

Now let me ask you a question, Stuart. If Christians are
(according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…

How can becoming delusional help?

Stuart

Stu

What cure is their for Greed,ego,sociopath behavior,?

Looking forward to learn

Pierre

January 17, 2012 at 4:29 pm#272947

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2012,04:24)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 16 2012,15:59)

Are you saying that you now believe the firmament is the entire universe, and that God created it on the second day to “divide the waters” that are on earth from the water at the edge of the universe?

Tentatively, YES.

Perhaps the planet earth, and the entire area we call “outer space”, was filled with water. And God then created a dry area surrounding the earth and moving in all directions away from the earth for an unspecified distance.

WIT, imagine a sponge suspended with wire in the exact middle of a 55 gallon drum. The drum is filled with water, and set inside a lake (water on the inside, water surrounding the outside).

Now imagine we use a vacuum pump and pump the water out of the inside of the drum, letting the sponge retain some water, but also drying out on the higher spots. Then imagine we placed Christmas lights inside the drum, and gave the sponge a spin, so that the little beings living on the sponge saw certain lights at certain times.

Now you have our little sponge planet, suspended in dry air, but the outside of the drum is nothing but water all around.

And the little sponge planet people haven't yet seen that outside water, because they have yet to produce a telescope capable of viewing the drum itself. They can get closer and closer looks at the Christmas lights, but can't yet see far enough to see the drum within which they live, or the vast lake of water beyond it.

Could you point to a single source that suggests this as a physical possibility, (i.e. that the universe is floating in water)?

Or you could just admit that the bible is describing this:

This is what ancient cultures believed and there is no evidence that the people who wrote the bible believed differently.

January 17, 2012 at 4:54 pm#272954

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2012,04:34)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 16 2012,16:24)

How has the bible uniquely been of practical benefit to humanity in terms of helping human progress in this world?

Now imagine the world was filled with nothing but people who follow the guidelines I mentioned above.

Unfortunately, the world is NOT filled with people like this; and even more unfortunately for Christians, many of the people who break the rules above claim to also be Christians.

There are three problems with what you wrote:

1. It's not unique! There are many social movements and other religions who hold and promote such ideals. The bible isn't necessary for those ideals to be promoted. In fact, lots of secular humanist movements would push for the same things.

2. It's not practical. By your own admission, the bible has failed miserably in achieving these aims even among those who believe in it! Historically speaking, Christianity has promoted the exact opposite of these ideals, (e.g. religious wars, torturing non-believers, tolerating slavery, etc.). It's not until the last few centuries, during a time when the influence of the bible has waned, that we have seen progress in these areas.

3. It's not true!. As Tim pointed out, the bible advocates violence, slavery, and the general mistreatment of other human beings throughout it's pages. The idea for the Salem Witch trials wasn't dreamt up by some depraved Puritans. It was taken directly from the bible, (Exodus 22:18). The idea of holy wars wasn't an invention of the Catholic church. It was a constant theme throughout the old testament, with echos of that theme in the new testament. The idea that slavery was an acceptable practice wasn't merely tolerated by the bible. It was a direct command for dealing with conquered foreigners. (See here.) And, as far as modern day Christians are concerned, I am certain that evangelical Christians from the United States are very much pro-war, pro- joining the army, and pro- killing their “enemies”. They are convinced that they are in a holy war with Islam!

So, bottom line, that is a major bible fail. Try again.

January 17, 2012 at 9:16 pm#272977

Blocked

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2012,06:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:49)

If Christians are
(according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…

How can becoming delusional help?

Because the power of suggestion is strong, and because you have adopted a totalitarian belief system which will force you to override other behaviours because of your zealous adoption of its beliefs, absurd as they are.

Then WHY IN THE WORLD would you knock it, Stu?

If the belief in an “imaginary God” helped Ed to live a BETTER life than what he was living, WHY WOULD YOU KNOCK IT?

Why is it important for you to tell Ed that the faith that saved him from a terrible life is “absurd”? Who gives you “points” for trying to belittle a faith that has caused a 180 degree turn around to a better life for so many people, including myself?

I just don't get why it's so important for you to prove to us that there is no God, or make fun of us for believing that there is.

January 17, 2012 at 9:20 pm#272979

Blocked

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 17 2012,09:29)

Could you point to a single source that suggests this as a physical possibility, (i.e. that the universe is floating in water)?

Could YOU point to a single shred of real evidence that suggests it CAN'T POSSIBLY be?

WIT, I don't understand all the hows and whys of it. I believe, and I'm happy with that.

Thanks for your concern.

peace,
mike

January 17, 2012 at 9:50 pm#272982

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2012,02:20)

WIT, I don't understand all the hows and whys of it. I believe, and I'm happy with that.

That is certainly evident.

As for me, I am concerned about the details which is why I no longer believe the bible.

Good luck!

January 17, 2012 at 10:04 pm#272984

Blocked

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 17 2012,09:54)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2012,04:34)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 16 2012,16:24)

How has the bible uniquely been of practical benefit to humanity in terms of helping human progress in this world?

………..were people to actually adhere to the Biblical principles, you would be looking at a very different world today.

There are three problems with what you wrote:

I hope that you and Tim listen very carefully here:

I personally follow the commands of my God that apply to me, and the teachings of His Son.

I don't go to wars. I don't kill people. I don't steal. I don't cheat on my taxes. I don't covet my neighbors’ possessions. I don't have affairs at all, let alone with someone else's wife. I don't lie. I don't rape. I don't try to cheat people out of what's theirs by dishonest means. I don't laugh at other people's misfortunes.

Most of the things mentioned above are things I used to do. So my faith in God made ME a better person; and in doing so, helped society out.

Now I do clothe the naked and feed the poor. I do help people with no intent of personal gain. I do try control my temper and build people up instead of tearing them down. And I do try to convince other people to live by these guidelines.

What you mention in your post (and what Tim mentioned in his) is certain situations that occurred many centuries ago. In God's eyes, the Canaanites were a despicable people, living in a way that displeased Him. God made a nation out of a righteous individual, Abraham, and chose to give what was His to give to that nation.

Since many years before last king of Israel, when did God ask anyone to take someone else's land, or go to war with another nation?

And you speak of slavery with the thought of Africans being drug to America and treated cruelly. But God gave rights to the people the Israelites enslaved. Many of these were from the nations being driven out, and welcomed servitude to the Israelites over starving in the wilderness. And many great friendships and extended families developed from those slave/master relationships. There were slaves in the Bible who were left the entire inheritance of their master. They were well fed and treated respectfully.

Now, since the last conquests of the nation of Israel, God has not commanded anyone to take anyone else as a slave.

So, in your list of “terrible things the Bible condones”, tell me which one of those things has God asked anyone to do in the last 2500 years or so?

Which of those things did His Son EVER ask anyone to do?

Jesus taught two rules:
1. Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Which one of those two rules condones slavery, killing, rape, torture, stealing, cheating, going to war, etc?

And if people (including those who call themselves Christians) would actually adhere to those to commands, this world would be a great place in which to live.

It is truly unfortunate that those who call themselves Christian are a big part of the people who disobey the two rules above. But don't base the behavior of those people on the word of God, because I can't read anywhere in the Bible where I'm supposed to do any of those terrible actions you listed.

January 17, 2012 at 10:40 pm#272990

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2012,03:04)

I hope that you and Tim listen very carefully here:

I personally follow the commands of my God that apply to me, and the teachings of His Son.

Most of the things mentioned above are things I used to do. So my faith in God made ME a better person; and in doing so, helped society out.

I know of a secular humanist who does the same things. Will you now support secular humanism?

Quote

Since many years before last king of Israel, when did God ask anyone to take someone else's land, or go to war with another nation?

Are you asking me or are you asking evangelical Christians who think that God wants the US to conquer the middle east?

Quote

Exodus 21:20-21:
“And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.”

This doesn't sound all that respectful to me.

Quote

Now, since the last conquests of the nation of Israel, God has not commanded anyone to take anyone else as a slave.

He also never commanded them to stop either. In fact, Paul casually mentions slaves as being part of a Christian household.

Colossians 3:18-22:
“Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged. Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.“

Jesus, Paul, nor anybody else ever told believers to set their slaves free.

Quote

So, in your list of “terrible things the Bible condones”, tell me which one of those things has God asked anyone to do in the last 2500 years or so?

Which of those things did His Son EVER ask anyone to do?

Are you asking me or the Christians who read the bible and used the principles that they found in it to justify what they were doing?

Quote

Jesus taught two rules:
1. Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.
2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Which one of those two rules condones slavery, killing, rape, torture, stealing, cheating, going to war, etc?

And if people (including those who call themselves Christians) would actually adhere to those to commands, this world would be a great place in which to live.

Here's the problem. Those two rules come from here:

Deuteronomy 6:5:
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Leviticus 19:18:
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Jesus was simply quoting the law and assigning priorities. This is the same law that condones slavery, advocates executing witches, sets the price for the sale of one's daughter, and commands that all the people from conquered nations either be slaughtered or enslaved. So, those two rules were in no way contrary to such practices. Rather, those rules were always intended to be practiced very selectively.

Good try, but no cigar.

January 18, 2012 at 12:02 am#272997

Blocked

WIT,

Can you show me ANYWHERE in the Bible where I, mikeboll64, am commanded by God to join an army, kill anyone, steal from anyone, hurt anyone in anyway, cheat with anyone's wife, own a slave, or torture anyone? YES or NO?

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where I, mikeboll64, am taught to love my God with my whole heart, soul, mind and strength; to love my neighbor as I love myself; and to help the poor, the orphaned, and the widowed? YES or NO?

PEOPLE do good things, and PEOPLE do bad things. Some of the people doing good things are not Christians, and some of the people doing bad things claim to be Christians.

But the Bible NEVER tells ME to do ANY bad thing at all. It tells ME to do only good things. I follow that teaching, and am therefore a better person than I once was.

Case closed.

January 18, 2012 at 4:08 am#273029

Participant

Mike,

So your defense of the bible is that it hasn't asked you, specifically, to do anything bad though it might have asked others? Really?

That's a pretty low standard for a supposedly holy book.

In any case, let me ask you this:

Do you permit women to speak in your church? Do you permit them to teach, in any way? Or, do you, as the bible requires of you, demand that they keep silent until they are at home? (See 1 Timothy 2:11-13 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

January 18, 2012 at 4:36 am#273034