As indeed there are many gods………..

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,08:44)

So then you think that Deborah was the mightiest being of all the beings in existence, Ed?   Plus, I'm STILL waiting for the explanation of the answer you gave to the questions I numbered 1 and 2 for you a couple of days ago. What does it mean “they are not real gods”?  Who is the “they”?

Hi Mike,

Deborah was mighty – compared to YHVH being almighty.

All other than YHVH

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,08:44)

And how does a “not real” mighty one cause serious wrath to come down upon the Israelites – causing them to flee for home?

Not sure what you mean here?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Not sure what I mean?

I posted a scripture where the king of Moab sacrificed his son to Chemosh. After the son was sacrificed, severe wrath fell upon the Israelites, forcing them to flee for home.

I asked you which god the king sacrificed his son to. I asked you which god brought down wrath upon the Israelites.

YOUR ANSWER WAS: They are not real gods.

Now I'm asking: WHO ARE THE “THEY” YOU WERE REFERRING TO?

And: HOW DOES A GOD WHO IS NOT A “REAL GOD” BRING DOWN WRATH UPON THE ISRAELITES?

Ed, don't play games with me. This whole post wasted 5 minutes out of my life. It was 5 minutes I didn't have to waste because you KNOW full well what I was asking about.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 02 2012,16:30)

Hi Mike, Deborah was mighty – compared to YHVH being almighty.

So then Deborah herself wasn't “almighty”, even though she was an elohim, right?

Ed, do you have expert testimony to provide that shows how “el” or “elohim” mean “almighty”?

If not, can we accept “mighty one” and move on? (Or is moving on with this discussion what you're afraid of? Is that why you're stalling with petty crap?)

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,17:31)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 02 2012,16:30) Hi Mike, Deborah was mighty – compared to YHVH being almighty. So then Deborah herself wasn't “almighty”, even though she was an elohim, right? Ed, do you have expert testimony to provide that shows how “el” or “elohim” mean “almighty”? If not, can we accept “mighty one” and move on?  (Or is moving on with this discussion what you're afraid of?  Is that why you're stalling with petty crap?)

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,10:28)

Not sure what I mean?       I posted a scripture where the king of Moab sacrificed his son to Chemosh.  After the son was sacrificed, severe wrath fell upon the Israelites, forcing them to flee for home. I asked you which god the king sacrificed his son to.  I asked you which god brought down wrath upon the Israelites.   YOUR ANSWER WAS:  They are not real gods.     Now I'm asking:  WHO ARE THE “THEY” YOU WERE REFERRING TO? And:  HOW DOES A GOD WHO IS NOT A “REAL GOD” BRING DOWN WRATH UPON THE ISRAELITES? Ed, don't play games with me.  This whole post wasted 5 minutes out of my life.  It was 5 minutes I didn't have to waste because you KNOW full well what I was asking about.

Hi Mike,

“For all the gods of the nations are idols:
but the LORD made the heavens.” (Psalms 96:5)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 03 2012,14:28)

HOW DOES A GOD WHO IS NOT A “REAL GOD” BRING DOWN WRATH UPON THE ISRAELITES?

Hi Mike,

It is the service to the phoney gods that brings wrath.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 03 2012,21:34)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 03 2012,14:28) HOW DOES A GOD WHO IS NOT A “REAL GOD” BRING DOWN WRATH UPON THE ISRAELITES? Hi Mike, It is the service to the phoney gods that brings wrath. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

Quote

It is the service to the phoney gods that brings wrath.

so it is OK not to serve your God as long that you do not go after other ones right

[Wakeup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,07:24)

Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 02 2012,07:16) DEBORAH—-ELOHIM?? Judges 5:8 NET © God chose new leaders (elohim), then fighters appeared in the city gates; but, I swear, not a shield or spear could be found, among forty military units in Israel. The footnote says: The Hebrew text reads literally, “He chose God/gods new.” The word used is “elohim”, which is the plural of “el”.  It gets confusing many times, because the Hebrews used the plural of majesty, as it is commonly called, to represent greatness.  I don't know if you're familiar with the plural of majesty, but it means that the plural Hebrew word “trees”, for instance, COULD refer to more than one tree, OR, it COULD refer to one great big tree.   It is the same with the plural word “elohim”.  Sometimes it refers to gods, and other times to a mighty, or majestic god.  Usually we can tell by the verb associated with the verse, or the context itself……….. but not always.  There are still quite a few scriptures where it is unclear if God is meant, or gods. I just read one today that I'll share with you: Gensis 20:13 And when God had me wander from my father’s household, I said to her, ‘This is how you can show your love to me: Everywhere we go, say of me, “He is my brother.”’ Here is some info from NETNotes about that verse: The Hebrew verb is plural. This may be a case of grammatical agreement with the name for God, which is plural in form. However, when this plural name refers to the one true God, accompanying predicates are usually singular in form. Perhaps Abraham is accommodating his speech to Abimelech’s polytheistic perspective.  If so, one should translate, “when the gods made me wander.” See what I mean?  We can't be totally sure if Abraham said, “when the gods made me wander”, or if he said, “when God made me wander”. Anyway, Deborah was singing her victory song, and identifying herself as the new elohim that Jehovah gave to Israel. Questions?

MIkeB.

Why is it so difficult?

Of course he would have said''God made me wonder.(not gods).
Was it not God that called him out of UR?
was it not God that made him to go here and there?
cheers.

wakeup.

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2012,01:47)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 03 2012,21:34) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 03 2012,14:28) HOW DOES A GOD WHO IS NOT A “REAL GOD” BRING DOWN WRATH UPON THE ISRAELITES? Hi Mike, It is the service to the phoney gods that brings wrath. God bless Ed J edj Quote It is the service to the phoney gods that brings wrath. so it is OK not to serve your God as long that you do not go after other ones right

Hi Pierre,

There are no 'other ones'?  

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2012,01:47)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 03 2012,21:34) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 03 2012,14:28) HOW DOES A GOD WHO IS NOT A “REAL GOD” BRING DOWN WRATH UPON THE ISRAELITES? Hi Mike, It is the service to the phoney gods that brings wrath. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj Quote It is the service to the phoney gods that brings wrath. so it is OK not to serve your God as long that you do not go after other ones right

Terra.

Every person worship some kind of a god; even an atheist.
He does not know that; but what ever is his desire in life,that is his god.

If an atheist is just dreaming of winning a million dollars lottery
ticket. That is his god.What ever is in his heart that is his god, and that is putting an other god before God.

Israel is guilty of this.So yes to worship other gods brings Gods wrath; and Gods wrath is upon babylon the great,the mother of harlots and all the abominations of the earth.

wakeup.

[jammin]

are there many lords? yes or no?

[Ed J]

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 04 2012,12:06)

are there many lords? yes or no?

Yep

[jammin]

ed,

is Christ Lord or lord?

[Ed J]

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 04 2012,13:53)

ed, is Christ Lord or lord?

Hi Jammin

YHVH is LORD
Jesus is Lord

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[jammin]

the father is LORD and not Lord?? is that what you mean?

let me post the bible
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus was full of joy through the Holy Spirit. He said, “I praise you, Father. You are Lord of heaven and earth. You have hidden these things from the wise and educated. But you have shown them to little children. Yes, Father. This is what you wanted.

the bible says Lord. what is the difference between your LORD and your Lord.

is there a God, god or GOD?

who is God
who is god
who is GOD

give me verses

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 02 2012,21:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,10:28) Not sure what I mean?       I posted a scripture where the king of Moab sacrificed his son to Chemosh.  After the son was sacrificed, severe wrath fell upon the Israelites, forcing them to flee for home. I asked you which god the king sacrificed his son to.  I asked you which god brought down wrath upon the Israelites.   YOUR ANSWER WAS:  They are not real gods.     Now I'm asking:  WHO ARE THE “THEY” YOU WERE REFERRING TO? And:  HOW DOES A GOD WHO IS NOT A “REAL GOD” BRING DOWN WRATH UPON THE ISRAELITES? Ed, don't play games with me.  This whole post wasted 5 minutes out of my life.  It was 5 minutes I didn't have to waste because you KNOW full well what I was asking about. Hi Mike, “For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.” (Psalms 96:5) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed,  I hope you actually listen and learn here:

1.  In the Psalm you quoted, the Hebrew word is not “idols”, but “worthless”.  It says, “the gods of the nations are WORTHLESS“, – not “idols”.  Do you understand this so far?

2.  In the LXX version, that same Psalm says, “the gods of the nations are DEMONS“ – not “idols”.

In their zeal to FORCE the scriptures to teach of only ONE god, the translators take liberties with the actual words of scripture, and MISTRANSLATE many verses – as can be seen in the Psalm you quoted.  But the truth of the matter is that many of these gods were powerful, real, living beings who helped the nations that worshiped them to fight against Jehovah and His nation – just as Satan compelled Adam and Eve to act against Jehovah.  

Do you understand this so far?

3.  2 Kings 3
17 For this is what the LORD says: You will see neither wind nor rain, yet this valley will be filled with water, and you, your cattle and your other animals will drink. 18 This is an easy thing in the eyes of the LORD; he will also hand Moab over to you.

For the sake of Jehoshaphat, Elisha petitioned the help of Jehovah in this battle against Moab.  Jehovah decided to give the Israelites victory.  Do you understand this so far?

4.  2 Kings 3
26 When the king of Moab saw that the battle had gone against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through to the king of Edom, but they failed.

Jehovah gave victory to the Israelites in this battle.  Do you understand this so far?

5.  2 Kings 3
27 Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The wrath against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land.

After the Israelites had gained the major victory………….

A.  TO WHOM did the king of Moab sacrifice his son?  (Hint:  The god of Moab was Chemosh.)

B.  WHO brought down the wrath upon the Israelites that Jehovah had just helped to victory?  (Hint:  Surely Jehovah Himself would not honor a human sacrifice made to a different god, and bring down wrath upon the very people He just led to victory, right?)

Ed, I'm trying to have a SERIOUS discussion here, using the very words of scripture as support.  It will do you no good to try and twist the words of scripture to make them come out the way you want them to – for you will only be deceiving yourself.

This passage speaks of the power of a god OTHER THAN Jehovah, who was able to bring wrath upon the Israelites after a sacrifice was made to him.  (It stands to reason that this god wouldn't have the power to pick his own nose if not allowed by Jehovah, who created him as a spirit being in the first place – so there is no argument from me that, just like in Job, it was Jehovah who ALLOWED the wrath to come down.  But the scriptural FACT of the matter is that a god OTHER THAN Jehovah was allowed to bring wrath down upon the Israelites – just as Satan was allowed to bring hardship down upon Job.)

Do you understand this so far?  

Now, this time I would like a DIRECT answer to my “A” and “B” bolded questions above.  No spin, just answers, okay?

Thanks.

[mikeboll64]

Ed, do you have expert testimony to provide that shows how “el” or “elohim” mean “almighty”? YES or NO?

If not, can we accept “mighty one” and move on?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 03 2012,09:47)

MIkeB. Why is it so difficult? Of course he would have said''God made me wonder.(not gods).

How are you so sure, Wakeup?

It is “difficult” because of the plural verb associated with “elohim” (which itself is a plural word) in that verse.

Example:  elohim states his purpose

Because of the plural word “states”, and the singular word “his”, we can detect that the plural word “elohim” is referring to one mighty god here, and not to more than one god.

BUT………………..

elohim state their purpose

Are we still talking about one god here?  Or can we tell from the singular “state” and the plural “their”, that we are talking about more than one god?

Do you understand?  In the first example, the accompanying words tell us that one god is being spoken of.  In the second example, it is clear from the accompanying words that more than one god are being discussed.

The Hebrew wording in Gen 20:13 matches my SECOND example – not my first.

We know from scripture that King David lied, cheated, pretended to be crazy, and pretended to join the Philistine army – all to preserve his own life.  Are you telling me that Abraham couldn't have said “the gods sent me” to appease the polytheistic king who at that moment had the power over the lives of him and his family?

You may be right about it, but what I'm pointing out is that because the PLURAL word used to refer to the ONE Jehovah is also the PLURAL word used to refer to MANY gods, we cannot be 100% sure about Gen 20:13, or many other scriptures.  Usually, we can tell by whether the words accompanying “elohim” are plural or singular.  And in the case of Gen 20:13, those words are plural, indicating that Abraham said “the gods sent me”.

Anyway, did you have a comment about Deborah?  She was definitely an “elohim”, who was not Jehovah Himself.  Was she, as a faithful servant of Jehovah, a “false god”?  Or was she just one of the many “mighty ones” who are not “the Almighty One”?

[Ed J]

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2012,00:02)

the father is LORD and not Lord?? is that what you mean? let me post the bible Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus was full of joy through the Holy Spirit. He said, “I praise you, Father. You are Lord of heaven and earth. You have hidden these things from the wise and educated. But you have shown them to little children. Yes, Father. This is what you wanted. the bible says Lord. what is the difference between your LORD and your Lord. is there a God, god or GOD? who is God who is god who is GOD give me verses

Hi Jammin,

You probably don't know Hebrew. LORD is
what the translators translated God's name (YHVH) [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā  to.

“Lord” is a tittle meaning “Owner”  –  in all three languages  –  in Hebrew, Greek, and English.

Hope this helps.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2012,01:35)

Ed,  I hope you actually listen and learn here: 1.  In the Psalm you quoted, the Hebrew word is not “idols”, but “worthless”.  It says, “the gods of the nations are WORTHLESS“, – not “idols”.  Do you understand this so far? Thanks.

Hi Mike,

אֱלִיל: idol, no value, thing of nothing

Apparently from 'al; good for nothing, by anal. Vain or
vanity; specifically an idol — idol, no value, thing of nought.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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