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First, name ONE point that Jack made that I didn't only answer, but refuted with scripture – and not just once, but time and time again to each flippin' point.
Second, I put my faith in your god's God. Because it is the Father's will only that will be done. I do, however have faith that Jesus will uphold his responsibilities without fail. Jesus never said he was God, did he? It is you who have a counterfeit Jeshua.
I only bumped the Eusebius post here because you ignored my repeated attempts to put your two cents in on Jack's thread. And as far as researching it – come on, man. It's like two sentences I wanted your opinion on, not a thesis. And, truth be told, I didn't really want your opinion, I just wanted ONE of you guys to be honest enough to admit the truth when it stared you in the face. So far, it was all in vain.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2010,14:31) First, name ONE point that Jack made that I didn't only answer, but refuted with scripture – and not just once, but time and time again to each flippin' point.
I started looking for non-rhetoric, unanswered questions, rather than unchallenged statements. It didn't take long to find one. On page 2, seventh post down Jack posed this question to you:Quote The illustration you gave has nothing to do with anything. Paul had just said that Christ existed “in the FORM of God.” This means that he was God. So his next statement about not grasping equality means that He yielded His equality for our sakes. Note Young's Literal Translation: who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,
There it is! Jesus did not count it “robbery” or usurping God to be equal to Him. Nevertheless, he made Himself nothing. Explain how He could have made Himself nothing if He was already nothing.
This was not addressed.Quote Second, I put my faith in your god's God. Because it is the Father's will only that will be done.
It's important that you understand the stakes here Mike. Consider the following verse.John 8:24
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”Setting aside the implications of the unpredicated ego eimi, the consequence for a misunderstanding of Yeshua's identity was clear – fail to believe in the real one – die in your sins.
Quote I do, however have faith that Jesus will uphold his responsibilities without fail. Jesus never said he was God, did he? It is you who have a counterfeit Jeshua.
Yeshua called Himself “the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end” in Revelation 22:13.This is arguably far stronger and more explicit language than “God”, which is a generic term.Quote I only bumped the Eusebius post here because you ignored my repeated attempts to put your two cents in on Jack's thread.
Right….why was it important that my comment was sought?? I don't get it. Why badger someone like that?Quote And as far as researching it – come on, man. It's like two sentences I wanted your opinion on, not a thesis. And, truth be told, I didn't really want your opinion, I just wanted ONE of you guys to be honest enough to admit the truth when it stared you in the face. So far, it was all in vain.
I gave you an answer, not the one you wanted but you were answered nonetheless.Hi Paul,
You said:
Quote I started looking for non-rhetoric, unanswered questions, rather than unchallenged statements. It didn't take long to find one. On page 2, seventh post down Jack posed this question to you: Quote The illustration you gave has nothing to do with anything. Paul had just said that Christ existed “in the FORM of God.” This means that he was God. So his next statement about not grasping equality means that He yielded His equality for our sakes. Note Young's Literal Translation: who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,
There it is! Jesus did not count it “robbery” or usurping God to be equal to Him. Nevertheless, he made Himself nothing. Explain how He could have made Himself nothing if He was already nothing.
This was not addressed.First, our debate at that point was supposed to only be about “prototokos pasa ktisis” and “monogenes”. Both of us kept getting off topic. The posts were thousands of words long and it took me hours to respond to one post. I sometimes neglected to answer things that had nothing to do with the points we were debating. This was one of those times. See if you can find a point he made about “pasa ktisis” or “monogenes” that went unanswered. You might have to look hard, because many times, if I had already answered it two or three times, I started ignoring repeats of the same questions.
Would you like me to answer Jack's point to you here and now?“I am” is not the translation of YHVH. Did Jesus ever say he was the “I will be who I will be”? Your point is so lame because YHVH is the Father. Why would the Son, even if he was God, be saying he was the Father? Oh, that's right. You think Jesus had the same name.
Prove it.You also think it was Jesus speaking in Rev 22:13. Prove it.
You said:
Quote Right….why was it important that my comment was sought?? I don't get it. Why badger someone like that? Because you, like Jack and Keith, have used the “monogenes has nothing to do with Jesus' beginning” line. I put proof positive in all your faces (actually, WJ did), and not one of you is honest enough to face that proof. It's time you face facts, man. Get off this ride you are on. Come join those of us on the narrow road. This broad a spacious road you are on with billions of other trinitarians leads to destruction.
You said:
Quote I gave you an answer, not the one you wanted but you were answered nonetheless. Your answer was, he could have meant preeminent over all creation. Really? When he thinks it happened before there was any creation? Your supporting scripture didn't even support your view, and left open the gaping hole that even though the scriptures foretell of things that hadn't happened yet, why would Eusebius speak in that way? Was his letter inspired of God?
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Do you see in Zech that Jehovah is saying that He was valued at 30 pieces of silver?
Matt 27:9-10
9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel;
10 AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME.”
NASUZech 11:13
13 Then the Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah) said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah).
NASUJehovah's value to them was 30 pieces of silver, Jesus' value to them was 30 pieces of silver. Coincidence? I think this helps show that Jesus is also Jehovah along with His Father.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2010,10:26) Mike, Do you see in Zech that Jehovah is saying that He was valued at 30 pieces of silver?
Matt 27:9-10
9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel;
10 AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME.”
NASUZech 11:13
13 Then the Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah) said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah).
NASUJehovah's value to them was 30 pieces of silver, Jesus' value to them was 30 pieces of silver. Coincidence? I think this helps show that Jesus is also Jehovah along with His Father.
Hi Kathi,I'll look into it. Thanks for keeping me honest.
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2010,18:39) Hi LU,
You speak of the Spirit of Christ?
Not exactly Nick,
The Spirit of Christ isn't mentioned in the context but I see that Jehovah is mentioned as saying that they thought He was worth 30 pieces of silver.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2010,20:57) Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2010,10:26) Mike, Do you see in Zech that Jehovah is saying that He was valued at 30 pieces of silver?
Matt 27:9-10
9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel;
10 AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME.”
NASUZech 11:13
13 Then the Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah) said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah).
NASUJehovah's value to them was 30 pieces of silver, Jesus' value to them was 30 pieces of silver. Coincidence? I think this helps show that Jesus is also Jehovah along with His Father.
Hi Kathi,I'll look into it. Thanks for keeping me honest.
mike
Mike,
You are welcome although it seems to be an endless task
Determination is my middle name, perseverance is my last. Smile!
Hi LU,
From the moment of his anointing you cannot separate the Spirit of Christ from the vessel of JesusNick,
That's true Nick, but we have a different opinion as to when that Spirit of Christ took on flesh.
Hi LU,
Reading Romans 8 and 1Peter1 should show you that this Spirit is of God, of power and wisdom.
It was after the Jordan that he was said to be FILLED with the Spirit and after that he moved in the anointing.[Lk 4.1, Jn3.34, Acts 10.38]Hi LU,
He was like any other man-body, soul and spirit.
His spirit was with the Spirit of God in him as with all the saved[rom8.16]Then he died
His own spirit left at his death as the spirits of men do[mt 27.50,Lk23.46, Jn19.30]
Nick,
So you agree, the Spirit of Christ was in Him when the Word became flesh. Great! I agree that His Spirit became united with His Father's Spirit when He was filled with the Spirit of God, then He died and His Spirit went back to the Father, and 3 days later was returned to His resurrected body which was then glorified. He and His Father's united Spirit called the Comforter resides now in all believers. Yeah! And they now abide in the believers.Hi LU,
The Word became flesh [at the Jordan] and dwelled among us.
His human spirit left and he was yet alive in the Spirit and visited the prisoners.[1peter3]
The Spirit of God in him is called the Spirit of Christ and now the Lord is the Spirit so abidng in the Spirit is fellowship with both.Nick,
Do you have scripture to state that the Word became flesh at the Jordan. What or who was the flesh before the Jordan in your opinion?Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2010,20:57) Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2010,10:26) Mike, Do you see in Zech that Jehovah is saying that He was valued at 30 pieces of silver?
Matt 27:9-10
9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel;
10 AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME.”
NASUZech 11:13
13 Then the Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah) said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah).
NASUJehovah's value to them was 30 pieces of silver, Jesus' value to them was 30 pieces of silver. Coincidence? I think this helps show that Jesus is also Jehovah along with His Father.
Hi Kathi,I'll look into it. Thanks for keeping me honest.
mike
Here ya go Mike, bumped to help you not forgetHi LU,
Jesus was a man.
Since God's power shows up best in weak people perhaps he was not strong.[Is 53]Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2010,01:37) First, our debate at that point was supposed to only be about “prototokos pasa ktisis” and “monogenes”. Both of us kept getting off topic. The posts were thousands of words long and it took me hours to respond to one post. I sometimes neglected to answer things that had nothing to do with the points we were debating. This was one of those times. See if you can find a point he made about “pasa ktisis” or “monogenes” that went unanswered. You might have to look hard, because many times, if I had already answered it two or three times, I started ignoring repeats of the same questions. Would you like me to answer Jack's point to you here and now?
You're full of excuses. Why don't you just admit you ducked the question?Quote “I am” is not the translation of YHVH. Did Jesus ever say he was the “I will be who I will be”?
“I will be who I will be”” is not used in the NT at all, so your point is not a cogent one. “I am” is an appelative used of YHWH in Isaiah 41:4, 43:10 and 46:4. It's rendered “ego eimi” in the LXX.Read this article and learn something:
http://vintage.aomin.org/EGO.htmlQuote Your point is so lame because YHVH is the Father.
Eisigesis.Quote Why would the Son, even if he was God, be saying he was the Father? Oh, that's right. You think Jesus had the same name. Prove it.
Straw man fallacy.Quote You also think it was Jesus speaking in Rev 22:13. Prove it.
Pay attention to the details:Revelation 22:20 records:
“He who (testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly ” Amen Come, Lord Jesus.Yeshua is “coming quickly” (cf. Titus 2:13).
Revelation 1:17-18 records:
“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”Yeshua was “dead” and is alive forevermore. Yeshua is the “first and last”.
Comparing Rev 22:12-13 with Rev. 1:17-18 and Revelation 22:20 reveals that it is Yeshua who is the first and last, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
I contend these details make it plain that Yeshua is the first and last in Revelation 22:13, but if you think you have a better candidate please bring him forward and we'll let occam's razer decide.
Quote Because you, like Jack and Keith, have used the “monogenes has nothing to do with Jesus' beginning” line. I put proof positive in all your faces (actually, WJ did)
No you gave us an appeal to authority akin to John Smith is a noted cosmologist, he once claimed the earth was flat therefore the earth must be flat. What you tout as a powerful argument is flimsy and laughable.Quote Your answer was, he could have meant preeminent over all creation. Really? When he thinks it happened before there was any creation? Your supporting scripture didn't even support your view, and left open the gaping hole that even though the scriptures foretell of things that hadn't happened yet, why would Eusebius speak in that way? Was his letter inspired of God?
As I've already said it's not unusual for Yeshua to be spoken of in a predictive/prophetic sense. You didn't argue that point so I assume it's not in dispute.
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