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Hi L,
God's Spirit is as his finger[Lk11/mt12]
But you think his arm is another separate god??
How does God connect to His finger without an arm?Hi Kathi,
I forgot….is the finger of God also Jesus in your opinion? Or just the arm?
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike and Nick,
Let's not over analyze the finger and arm of God. I believe that God acts through the Son and the Spirit as if they were His arm and finger. The question is this, is the arm of God actually a person and is the finger of God actually a person. I think that the arm of God in many contexts is the Son, a person, and the finger of God is the inner person of God when, in context, it is compared to the Spirit.If I said that my son was like my right arm, you would know that I was talking about a very important and helpful person and not my actual arm…right? If I said that God's Spirit is as His finger then I assume that means His Spirit might point the way as a guide, or do the Father's work, etc. I would know that the Spirit is not the finger on God's hand. So, get the general concept. God works through a faithful Son and His mighty Spirit. Isn't that the message, anyway?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2010,16:08) Hi Kathi, Read it again. The things foretold that would happen by God bareing His holy arm are the exact things that Cyrus fulfilled for Him. That's why I put the Ezra quotes in the post. (The holy instruments of the temple being returned and such.)
I'm convinced I will find more as I continue reading through the prophets.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
I will look at this again. Not now, but probably soon. Keep searching for your examples.Hi LU,
You now downplay the major hope of your two God theory?
Lk 1.51 glorifying God shows it is the strength of God that is His arm, not another god.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2010,01:26) Hi LU,
You now downplay the major hope of your two God theory?
Lk 1.51 glorifying God shows it is the strength of God that is His arm, not another god.
Nick,
I am simplifying something for you that you are trying to make more complex than it is.Luke 1:51
Quote 6And Mary said:
“(BA)My soul (BB)exalts the Lord,
47And (BC)my spirit has rejoiced in (BD)God my Savior.
48″For (BE)He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
For behold, from this time on all generations will count me (BF)blessed.
49″For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
And holy is His name.
50″(BG)AND HIS MERCY IS UPON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION
TOWARD THOSE WHO FEAR HIM.
51″(BH)He has done mighty deeds with His arm;
He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.
52″He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
And has (BI)exalted those who were humble.
53″(BJ)HE HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS;
And sent away the rich empty-handed.
54″He has given help to Israel His servant,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55(BK)As He spoke to our fathers,
(BL)To Abraham and his descendants forever.”This says that God has done mighty deeds with His arm. He created with His arm…a mighty deed indeed! His arm is His Son, the root of David, the only God at His side.
Hi LU,
His son is not his arm or a second God.
His arm is of Him, His strength.Weak vessels best show His strength but what about other gods or supermen?
Nick,
The Son is the only begotten God, the Arm of the Lord throughout the OT which was revealed in the NT.You said:
Quote Weak vessels best show His strength but what about other gods or supermen? The Son is what He is. You are trying so hard to make Him fit your little box. He is beyond our logical ways. He is the root of David and also the offspring of David…a one of a kind. No box can contain Him.
Hi,
So you say LU,
But you are deceived on this matter.Have you become a daughter of God by following him into his sonship?
Nick,
I am deceived? Was Jesus deceived too when He said:Quote Rev 22:16
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
NASUAre you judging scripture as being deceived too.
Hi LU,
Jesus is a son of David.David was anointed of the eternal Holy Spirit.
The bright morning star is the Spirit of Christ[2peter1]
Quote (Lightenup @ May 07 2010,01:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2010,21:13) Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2010,16:50) Mike, you have researched the Outstretched Arm and have come up with no evidence that the outstretched arm applied to anyone other than the Son of God. The only passage you mentioned was equating a man as a tool, not as an outstretched arm.
Hi Kathi,YET. I said I hadn't come up with anything “yet”. But I might have something here. Starting with Isaiah 44:28, Jehovah starts talking about Cyrus.
28 the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in [my] saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid.’”
45 This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations,
Then Isaiah 52 talks about the Israelites being repurchased out of Babylon and coming home to Jerusalem,
9 Become cheerful, cry out joyfully in unison, YOU devastated places of Jerusalem, for Jehovah has comforted his people; he has repurchased Jerusalem. 10 Jehovah has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth must see the salvation of our God. 11 Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean; get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, YOU who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.
In this instance, it is clear that Cyrus is “the holy arm” of Jehovah, not Jesus, for Ezra 1:2 says,
2 “This is what Cyrus the king of Persia has said, ‘All the kingdoms of the earth Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me, and he himself has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
And Ezra 1:7-8 says,
7 Also, King Cyrus himself brought forth the utensils of the house of Jehovah, which Neb‧u‧chad‧nez′zar had brought out from Jerusalem and then put in the house of his god. 8 And Cyrus the king of Persia proceeded to bring them forth under the control of Mith′re‧dath the treasurer and to number them out to Shesh‧baz′zar the chieftain of Judah.
I think I might have found a “mighty arm” of Jehovah who is clearly Cyrus.
True, the rest of Isaiah 55 foretells about Jesus' role as Jehovah's mighty arm in the future. But Jesus the man as we know him wasn't a factor in bringing the exiles back from Babylon, that was Cyrus, another of Jehovah's anointed ones.
On another note, 1 John 4:9 says,
9 By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.
When God sent forth his Son into the world as a sacrifice, it was the first time mentioned that Jesus was “in the world”. Paul says that when God again brings His firstborn into the world, the angels will do obeisance to him. IMO, this is when the things in Rev occur – after he is found worthy to open the scroll and comes on the clouds with power. Other than these two times, I have never read anything in the Bible that implies Jesus was “in the world”.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
God is holding Cyrus' hand. Cyrus is not the arm but the object that God is holding.Isaiah 52 leads into Isaiah 53. Just a few verses after the mention of the Lord baring His arm in 52 we read about who the revealed arm is…the Son of God.
Nice try though.
Mike,
Is 52:9 the bared Arm is not Cyrus. The bared Arm is the salvation of God…the Son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2010,01:04) Hi LU,
Jesus is a son of David.David was anointed of the eternal Holy Spirit.
The bright morning star is the Spirit of Christ[2peter1]
Nick,
Yes Jesus is the son of David. You do not acknowledge that He is also the root of David. You must have a blind spot here because you never acknowledge this.Quote (Lightenup @ May 12 2010,17:32) Mike,
Is 52:9 the bared Arm is not Cyrus. The bared Arm is the salvation of God…the Son.
Hi Kathi,I disagree. I think it is very clear to see.
9 Become cheerful, cry out joyfully in unison, YOU devastated places of Jerusalem, for Jehovah has comforted his people; he has repurchased Jerusalem. 10 Jehovah has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth must see the salvation of our God. 11 Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean; get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, YOU who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.
Jehovah has bared his arm before the EYES OF ALL THE NATIONS. That is why they should become cheerful, but with the warning to get out of Babylon clean. Especially those who will be carrying the utensils. The same utensils that Cyrus sent back. The same cheerful people that Cyrus sent back. When did the EYES OF ALL THE NATIONS see Jesus? Not for many years later.
I've got more, later.
peace and love,
mikeps So the “finger” is not Jesus, just the arm? Wouldn't the arm include the finger too?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,01:45) Quote (Lightenup @ May 12 2010,17:32) Mike,
Is 52:9 the bared Arm is not Cyrus. The bared Arm is the salvation of God…the Son.
Hi Kathi,I disagree. I think it is very clear to see.
9 Become cheerful, cry out joyfully in unison, YOU devastated places of Jerusalem, for Jehovah has comforted his people; he has repurchased Jerusalem. 10 Jehovah has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth must see the salvation of our God. 11 Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean; get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, YOU who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.
Jehovah has bared his arm before the EYES OF ALL THE NATIONS. That is why they should become cheerful, but with the warning to get out of Babylon clean. Especially those who will be carrying the utensils. The same utensils that Cyrus sent back. The same cheerful people that Cyrus sent back. When did the EYES OF ALL THE NATIONS see Jesus? Not for many years later.
I've got more, later.
peace and love,
mikeps So the “finger” is not Jesus, just the arm? Wouldn't the arm include the finger too?
Hi Mike,
Isaiah wrote as if things took place that were prophecies of future events at times. See Chapter 53 and notice that the events written about hadn't happened for many years later:Quote Isa 53:1-10
53 Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
NASUAnyway, my point with the Arm of the Lord is that the Arm can be, if not always, another being. Who do you think the Arm is in this passage:
Jer 27:5
5 “I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight.
NASUJohn chapter 1 and Colossians chapter 1 will help you answer this.
And who is the arm here:
Ps 136
136 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 7 To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 8 The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 10 To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 11 And brought Israel out from their midst, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 15 But He overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 17 To Him who smote great kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 18 And slew mighty kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 20 And Og, king of Bashan, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 21 And gave their land as a heritage, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 22 Even a heritage to Israel His servant, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 24 And has rescued us from our adversaries, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 25 Who gives food to all flesh, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
NASUBTW, the finger is part of the hand which is part of the arm. The Spirit of God dwelled within the Son which makes the Spirit part of the Son too.
Hi Kathi,
You said:
Quote Hi Mike,
Isaiah wrote as if things took place that were prophecies of future events at times.Agreed. Like the return from exile in Babylon which hadn't happened yet at the time he wrote about it. The return that happened because of the “arm” of Jehovah – His power. In this case that power manifested itself in the form of Cyrus, Jehovah's anointed. I'm sure you know that anointed basically means, “set aside or chosen for a special purpose”, right?
You said:
Quote Anyway, my point with the Arm of the Lord is that the Arm can be, if not always, another being. Wait a minute. I thought you believed the arm to ALWAYS be “Jehovah the Son”. It sounds like you are closer to the truth now. The “arm” signifies one's power, or capability to accomplish something. Jehovah has used His arm to show His power in a number of ways. Thunder, hail, earthquakes, Jesus, Cyrus, angels – just to name a few. Just because His Son was the one He sent to fulfill His purpose on one occasion, doesn't mean His arm is ALWAYS represented by His Son.
Here is some information with Scriptures that might help:
A limb of the human body. The Hebrew and Greek terms for “arm” (zeroh′a‛; bra‧khi′on) are often used figuratively in the Bible to represent the ability to exert strength or power. (Ge 49:24, ftn; Job 22:8, ftn; compare Lu 1:51.) The “arm” of Jehovah God is immeasurably powerful, able to do marvelous creative works. (Jer 27:5; 32:17) By his “arm” Jehovah also rules (Isa 40:10; Eze 20:33), saves those in distress (Ps 44:3; Isa 52:10), delivers his people (Ex 6:6; Isa 63:12; Ac 13:17), supports and cares for them (De 33:27; Isa 40:11; Ho 11:3), judges (Isa 51:5), and scatters his enemies (Ps 89:10; Lu 1:51). Breaking the arm represents shattering one’s might. (Job 38:15; Ps 10:15; Jer 48:25) Through Jesus Christ, clothed with authority and power and acting as Judge and Executioner, Jehovah manifests His might, represented by His “arm.”—Isa 53:1; Joh 12:37, 38.
The arm of flesh, representing human power, is described in the Bible as unreliable and failing the one trusting in it. Jehovah warns his people of the fallacy and disaster of trusting in the human arm. (2Ch 32:8; Jer 17:5) He will break the arm of the wicked, which is described as resting oppressively on their victims.—Job 35:9; 38:15; Ps 10:15.
The more I think about your beliefs, the more I am concerned. You have invented a second God. That is in direct violation of everything Jehovah taught about gods.
I don't know what it is about you and the trinitarians that makes you have this need to elevate Jesus higher than was ever taught in Scripture. Is it you immense love for him? Because I love him too. I love him enough to worship the way both he and his God taught.
Did Jesus ever tell us to worship him? Did he ever say that he was also God? At least the trinitarians try to disguise their three gods as one God, so they can think they are keeping with Scripture. But not you. You just blatantly admit that you worship two separate gods. Wow.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Again…my point with the Arm of the Lord is that the Arm can be, if not always, another being. Who do you think the Arm is in this passage:
Jer 27:5
5 “I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight.
NASUJohn chapter 1 and Colossians chapter 1 will help you answer this.
And who is the arm here:
Ps 136
136 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 7 To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 8 The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 10 To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 11 And brought Israel out from their midst, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 15 But He overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 17 To Him who smote great kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 18 And slew mighty kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 20 And Og, king of Bashan, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 21 And gave their land as a heritage, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 22 Even a heritage to Israel His servant, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 24 And has rescued us from our adversaries, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 25 Who gives food to all flesh, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
NASUYou forgot to answer the above questions.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 13 2010,02:16) Mike, Again…my point with the Arm of the Lord is that the Arm can be, if not always, another being. Who do you think the Arm is in this passage:
Jer 27:5
5 “I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight.
NASUJohn chapter 1 and Colossians chapter 1 will help you answer this.
And who is the arm here:
Ps 136
136 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 7 To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 8 The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 10 To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 11 And brought Israel out from their midst, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 15 But He overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 17 To Him who smote great kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 18 And slew mighty kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 20 And Og, king of Bashan, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 21 And gave their land as a heritage, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 22 Even a heritage to Israel His servant, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 24 And has rescued us from our adversaries, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 25 Who gives food to all flesh, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
NASUYou forgot to answer the above questions.
Hi Mike,
I keep thinking that you will answer this but maybe you have been distracted.I'm just sitting here-getting older and waiting, Mike,
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