Answering jodi lee's nonsense

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
No doubt you have evidence for these claims?

“GIVEN BEFORE CREATION” is not written in Jn17.

He was no superman but a man who worked in the name and anointing of his God till he died.
Now the Lord is the Spirit.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 04 2010,14:33)

Hi LU, No doubt you have evidence for these claims? “GIVEN BEFORE CREATION” is not written in Jn17.   He was no superman but a man who worked in the name and anointing of his God till he died. Now the Lord is the Spirit.

Nick,
A child is given His Father's name when He is born. He was born before creation.

You seem to have no awareness as to the root of David, only the branch of David. Why is that? Before He became the branch of David, He was the root of David. The 100% root became the 100% root and branch. That a mere man cannot be.

[NickHassan]

Hi lU,
So logic fills the gaping holes and you feel justified in your speculations?
When will you let scripture teach you?

Where does scripture say he WAS BORN before creation??

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 04 2010,14:49)

Hi lU, So logic fills the gaping holes and you feel justified in your speculations? When will you let scripture teach you? Where does scripture say he WAS BORN before creation??

“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth, before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
This is speaking of wisdom?

[mikeboll64]

Lightenup,May wrote:

[/quote]
Hi Kathi,

You said:

Quote

So, since Gen 18:3 has the #113 (Adown) Lord in it, then it shouldn't have been changed to Jehovah.

I'm not sure you're clear on the translation question.  Nobody “changed” Lord to Jehovah.  The oldest MSS already have Jehovah in those 134 places.  Why the scribes changed some of the “Jehovahs” to adown and some to adonay, I don't know.

You said:

Quote

I have suggested that Lot said “No, please” to the angels and then began a prayer/plea to Jehovah who was back in heaven by then.  You said that was plausible.

You are correct.  I was actually impressed with how fast you covered your butt on that one.

You said:

Quote

Even if Gen 18:3 should read Jehovah where Abe said 'Lord,' I have shown you that the Lord had appeared to Him at other times (see chapter 17) and that could also have been the Son since no one has seen the Father.  Abe may have recognized Jehovah from a very recent encounter, probably only a few months before.

Okay, but that would mean Abe or the narrator Moses knew that he had seen “Jehovah the Son”.   Why no mention to anyone that God had a son people could see in person?

All in all, Kathi, I think your theory claims that there are two Gods.  Jehovah the Son, and Jehovah the Father.  But Jehovah says He is one.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Nick,

1 Cor 1:23-24
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
NASU

1 Cor 1:30-31
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
NASU

The Son of God is the wisdom of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Indeed he is the wisdom of God, not of himself but by his anointing.
Wisdom is one of the gifts of the Spirit.[1Cor12]

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2010,23:38)

Lightenup,May wrote: [/quote] Hi Kathi, You said: Quote So, since Gen 18:3 has the #113 (Adown) Lord in it, then it shouldn't have been changed to Jehovah. I'm not sure you're clear on the translation question.  Nobody “changed” Lord to Jehovah.  The oldest MSS already have Jehovah in those 134 places.  Why the scribes changed some of the “Jehovahs” to adown and some to adonay, I don't know. You said: Quote I have suggested that Lot said “No, please” to the angels and then began a prayer/plea to Jehovah who was back in heaven by then.  You said that was plausible. You are correct.  I was actually impressed with how fast you covered your butt on that one. You said: Quote Even if Gen 18:3 should read Jehovah where Abe said 'Lord,' I have shown you that the Lord had appeared to Him at other times (see chapter 17) and that could also have been the Son since no one has seen the Father.  Abe may have recognized Jehovah from a very recent encounter, probably only a few months before. Okay, but that would mean Abe or the narrator Moses knew that he had seen “Jehovah the Son”.   Why no mention to anyone that God had a son people could see in person? All in all, Kathi, I think your theory claims that there are two Gods.  Jehovah the Son, and Jehovah the Father.  But Jehovah says He is one. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

you said:

Quote

Okay, but that would mean Abe or the narrator Moses knew that he had seen “Jehovah the Son”. Why no mention to anyone that God had a son people could see in person? All in all, Kathi, I think your theory claims that there are two Gods. Jehovah the Son, and Jehovah the Father. But Jehovah says He is one.

Jesus said that Moses wrote about Him. Moses wrote what he was inspired to write. The Son and the fact that He existed before Abraham was born was to be revealed through Jesus, the branch of David in the NT. Moses didn't understand everything that he wrote but he was inspired to write what he wrote. Abe didn't understand everything about Jehovah either.

The Jews knew the Lord and His outstretched arm as one.

Deut 4:34-39
34 “Or has a god tried to go to take for himself a nation from within another nation by trials, by signs and wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
36 “Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
37 “Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt by His great power,
38 driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in and to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is today.
39 “Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
NASU

Mike, you have researched the Outstretched Arm and have come up with no evidence that the outstretched arm applied to anyone other than the Son of God. The only passage you mentioned was equating a man as a tool, not as an outstretched arm.

So, yes, my theory is two Gods, one the Most High God who always existed and one, the Mighty God who was begotten. You believe in there being an only begotten god and God the Father too. That makes two that are over us and whom we are to serve…right? Their oneness is in unity. All other so-called gods are not for us to serve.

Another late night…

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Indeed there is no other God.
He sends his Spirit to do His work.[ps 104.30]

Now the Lord is the Spirit

[Lightenup]

Nick,

The Father and the Son are one. We serve both!

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Then who is your other begotten god?

[seekingtruth]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 04 2010,16:32)

Hi ST, It is a popular myth. No substance. But the Spirit of Christ was there[1Peter1] The Lord is the Spirit.

Nick,
So if this verse referring to the Spirit of Christ means he was only Spirit, then Paul must also of been only spirit

1 Corinthians 5:4
When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,

Wm

[NickHassan]

Hi ST,
Paul was led by the Spirit of Christ.[gal2.20]
That Spirit of God Himself joins all in Christ with Him.

The Spirit is one.[1Cor 12]

Read Rom 8 and see how many ways this one Spirit can be written about.

And there are many more words used in scripture about the Spirit too and Jesus spoke in such marvellous ways in Jn 14-17.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2010,16:50)

Mike, you have researched the Outstretched Arm and have come up with no evidence that the outstretched arm applied to anyone other than the Son of God.  The only passage you mentioned was equating a man as a tool, not as an outstretched arm.

Hi Kathi,

YET.  I said I hadn't come up with anything “yet”.  But I might have something here.  Starting with Isaiah 44:28, Jehovah starts talking about Cyrus.

28 the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in [my] saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid.’”

45 This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations,

Then Isaiah 52 talks about the Israelites being repurchased out of Babylon and coming home to Jerusalem,

9 Become cheerful, cry out joyfully in unison, YOU devastated places of Jerusalem, for Jehovah has comforted his people; he has repurchased Jerusalem. 10 Jehovah has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth must see the salvation of our God. 11 Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean; get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, YOU who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.

In this instance, it is clear that Cyrus is “the holy arm” of Jehovah, not Jesus, for Ezra 1:2 says,

2 “This is what Cyrus the king of Persia has said, ‘All the kingdoms of the earth Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me, and he himself has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

And Ezra 1:7-8 says,

7 Also, King Cyrus himself brought forth the utensils of the house of Jehovah, which Neb‧u‧chad‧nez′zar had brought out from Jerusalem and then put in the house of his god. 8 And Cyrus the king of Persia proceeded to bring them forth under the control of Mith′re‧dath the treasurer and to number them out to Shesh‧baz′zar the chieftain of Judah.

I think I might have found a “mighty arm” of Jehovah who is clearly Cyrus.  

True, the rest of Isaiah 55 foretells about Jesus' role as Jehovah's mighty arm in the future.  But Jesus the man as we know him wasn't a factor in bringing the exiles back from Babylon, that was Cyrus, another of Jehovah's anointed ones.

On another note, 1 John 4:9 says,

9 By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.

When God sent forth his Son into the world as a sacrifice, it was the first time mentioned that Jesus was “in the world”.  Paul says that when God again brings His firstborn into the world, the angels will do obeisance to him.  IMO, this is when the things in Rev occur – after he is found worthy to open the scroll and comes on the clouds with power.  Other than these two times, I have never read anything in the Bible that implies Jesus was “in the world”.

peace and love,
mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
God has shown His strength and power.
It has never been another god
He uses all sorts of vessels.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2010,13:20)

Hi MB, God has shown His strength and power. It has never been another god He uses all sorts of vessels.

Hi Nick,

You are preaching to the choir. I agree. I am trying to get Kathi to understand that “outstrectched arm” is a way of saying what “tool” God used for that particular purpose, not a synonym for Jesus only.

You are wrong though that Jesus is not a god. He is not God, but he is a god in the sense that other heavenly beings were considered gods. He is most definately a “mighty one”.

peace and love,
mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
For us there is ONE GOD and Jesus is our LORD[1cor8].
The rest is less relevant for us.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Nick,

Less relevant for you maybe.  When I'm out talking about God and am confronted with a trinitarian who is Scripturally knowledgable, I want to always be prepared to have an answer to defend my faith that God is one.

I use this site to learn every out of context Scripture and twisted definition that they can throw at me.  That way I can have a defense for it prepared.  I can't just say, “The Lord is the Spirit” and walk away.  How would that teach anyone?

I can't say who will and won't receive everlasting life, but I can say that Jesus thought it was pretty important for people to know the difference between himself and his God.

3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

I want to bring as many as I can to “everlasting life” by sharing the knowledge from the Scriptures that God is One, and His Son is not Him.

Many trinitarians just follow the teachings of their church without ever questioning those teachings.  We are the hands and feet, Nick.  We are commanded to try to lead others to a true understanding of God and His Christ. Forgive me for saying, but your comment sounds like, “As long as we know it, to hell with the rest of them.” IMO

peace and love,
mike

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
The tactic of the enemy is distraction and diversion.

Then truth is diluted with rationalisations and justifications, speculations, myths and legends..

Keep it simple.

The tactics are ineffective when we point to what is relevant.[1Cor8, 2 cor 11]

[Author]

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