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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2010,17:52) Mike My statement to you was a simple statement of fact. You think you are right, but again, millions that know more about the Bible than you do disagree with you.
You can stick your head in the sand if you like! But you are not some special challenge to the Trinitarian belief.
My point was “don't flatter yourself”!
Your scripture seems to fit the “anti-Trinitarians” here seeing that you guys get all the praise and honour from one another while Jack and I seem to be some sort of disease that many would like to kill!
But thanks for your welcome anyway. I can see how you guys are learning from us!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,There are also “millions” of Jehovah's Witnesses who know more about the Scriptures than I do who would disagree with YOU.
You believe that Jesus Christ was God Almighty, then came as a man, then returned to his position as God Almighty. (In a nutshell, anyway)
It doesn't take a Bible scholar to easily see that is not what the Bible teaches.
“They loved praise from men more than praise from God” actuallly applies to my experience. My son's mom has been a member of a certain church for 6 years. She voluteers many hours, but finally decided to take the time to do their “real bonafid members” class. The statement of beliefs she had to sign includes the trinity. But when asked about it, she will eagerly admit that the Father is greater. When I told her that is not what the trinity states, she was dumbfounded, and blew it off by saying, “God knows what I believe!”
When I wanted to become baptized, I met with her pastor to discuss if it was okay to be baptized by a person who believes the trinity even though I don't. He told me he never actually delved into it that much, and he would have no problem baptizing me. I thought, “How can you teach a doctrine that you don't even know that much about?”
These are just two instances of people running around claiming a trinity but knowing little about what that implies. What does that infer about your “millions”?
Someone should do a phone poll. I bet 90% of the people who confess a trinity have never even thought it out – they just “go with the flow” and receive their praise from men.
peace and love,
mikeGene
Of course, and you are one of the “elite” right?
Tells us Gene how many souls did you lead to Jesus last year?
How much money or time did you devote to ministering to the poor, hungry and needy? How many Fatherless, or widows did you visit?
Why do you black ball the many millions that are doing the work by sacrificing their lives through giving of their money and time to humanity, just because they do not agree with your perfect doctrine?
You accuse the brethren that are in the world, and we know who the accuser of the brethren is, don't we?
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,11:45) Hi WJ, There are also “millions” of Jehovah's Witnesses who know more about the Scriptures than I do who would disagree with YOU.
MikeSurely you can do better than that! You use a cult as an example.
Do you know what they believe? They for starters believe that Jesus is Michael the Arch-Angel.
Michael became flesh and dwelt among us!
Oh and as far as their knowledge of the Bible, well their Bible was “Translated” by a bunch of unknowns, and not a one of them knew Hebrew or Greek!
Bad example my friend! I am talking about real scholarship like AT Robertson and the many thousands that know more about the scriptures than you and I will probably ever know! Check it out, most of the real Hebrew and Greek scholars were Trinitarian!
I know this must be an embarrassment to all of the “Unitarians”, “Arians” and “anti-Trinitarians”, for they never translated their own Bible.
I at least give the JWs an E for effort!
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,11:45) It doesn't take a Bible scholar to easily see that is not what the Bible teaches.
MikeNo it takes the Spirit of God to reveal the Truth to men from the scriptures. Are you 100% sure of yourself? Has God shown you that Jesus is not the “True God”! Or are you just listening to what other men say?
But your statement is not at all true to the facts. Like I said, most real scholarship, those who know more about why scriptures were translated the way they were, are Trinitarians!
Do you know Hebrew and Greek? Why do you question their belief and claim they are wrong if you can't even begin to hold a candle to their knowledge of the scriptures?
Could it be that you are wrong, or have you just closed the door to any possiblity that you are because of a few isolated text?
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,11:45)
These are just two instances of people running around claiming a trinity but knowing little about what that implies. What does that infer about your “millions”?
MikeTo you it may infer something, but to me it only says that there are some who do not understand the concept, but your two little examples is not a reflection of the millions!
The thing is do you believe they are saved? If you do then that in itself should tell you something.
Think about it. How many do you know that are saved who were not saved in a Trinitarian Church or by a Trinitarians witness?
Most if they will be honest were saved as Trinitarian. What happened?
Does God change his mind? Is the same truth that saved them not the same truth that would keep them? Does God use men who are preaching heresy or should I say is that the norm?
Ask yourself why it is the Trinitarians are the ones doing the work?
For if he that cometh preacheth “ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached“, or “if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received“, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Cor 11:4
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:08) Mike Surely you can do better than that! You use a cult as an example.
Hi WJ,Really?!
Is that the best defense to the Witnesses that YOU have? People like you like to dismiss them as a cult, but that isn't true. I am not a Witness because of their interpretation of things like Michael and blood transfusions and their non-belief in what you call hell, but they follow the same Bible you do. In fact, you recently quoted (basically) THEIR translation of the Divine name over the I AM translation. How many of your trinity believers even use the Divine Name? Most of your fellows think God's name is “God” or “the LORD”. I thank Jehovah for them that I even know the Divine Name that we were told by God Himself to use forever.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,12:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:08) Mike Surely you can do better than that! You use a cult as an example.
Hi WJ,Really?!
Is that the best defense to the Witnesses that YOU have? People like you like to dismiss them as a cult, but that isn't true. I am not a Witness because of their interpretation of things like Michael and blood transfusions and their non-belief in what you call hell, but they follow the same Bible you do. In fact, you recently quoted (basically) THEIR translation of the Divine name over the I AM translation. How many of your trinity believers even use the Divine Name? Most of your fellows think God's name is “God” or “the LORD”. I thank Jehovah for them that I even know the Divine Name that we were told by God Himself to use forever.
peace and love,
mike
MikeListen my friend. If they say Jesus is Michael that is a cultic claim.
Jesus is not an Angel become flesh! Paul said if anyone preaches another Jesus than what he preached let him be accursed!
You can stick your head in the sand again if you like. But as I said, their Bible was translated by non Hebrew and Greek scholars, that should give you some reservation about their teachings!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:08) Oh and as far as their knowledge of the Bible, well their Bible was “Translated” by a bunch of unknowns, and not a one of them knew Hebrew or Greek! Bad example my friend! I am talking about real scholarship like AT Robertson and the many thousands that know more about the scriptures than you and I will probably ever know! Check it out, most of the real Hebrew and Greek scholars were Trinitarian!
Hi WJ,Listen to you!
You sound like someone who “worships” the great AT Robertson. He is a man, not a fourth in your Godhead!
“A bunch of unknowns”? What are you, a groupie of AT Robertson or something? Is he the only man on the planet that speaks Greek and Hebrew?Aside from John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:8, the NWT translates the Scriptures pretty much the same as the NIV – which, btw, is the translation I almost always use to debunk the trinity. That's right, WJ. The NIV, which was translated ONLY by people who signed off on a trinity belief before they were allowed on the project, is the one I use the most. And with God's help, I will use it effectively enough to prove the trinity false. Because even using the NIV, you can see that if Jesus WAS God Almighty in the beginning, and then was raised to a HIGHER position than he had before he became flesh, but is still not God Almighty – only at His right hand, then it's not the translation causing the problem, it's your interpretation of it.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,12:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:08) Mike Surely you can do better than that! You use a cult as an example.
Hi WJ,Really?!
Is that the best defense to the Witnesses that YOU have? People like you like to dismiss them as a cult, but that isn't true. I am not a Witness because of their interpretation of things like Michael and blood transfusions and their non-belief in what you call hell, but they follow the same Bible you do. In fact, you recently quoted (basically) THEIR translation of the Divine name over the I AM translation. How many of your trinity believers even use the Divine Name? Most of your fellows think God's name is “God” or “the LORD”. I thank Jehovah for them that I even know the Divine Name that we were told by God Himself to use forever.
peace and love,
mike
Mike this is a total fallacy! For the name of God and its correct pronuciation was lost.The Tetragamation, YHWH or YHVH is all we have of the Hebrew. The vowels were left out by the Hebrew scholars in order not to offend God because of their fear of blaspheming his name.
The misnomer theory by the JWs is a red herring for no one can possibly know the exact pronuciation of the Tetragamation!
Ask yourself why Jesus never mentioned his divine name? Can you find the Apostles using it? If so where except in the corrupted NWT?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:14) Mike No it takes the Spirit of God to reveal the Truth to men from the scriptures. Are you 100% sure of yourself? Has God shown you that Jesus is not the “True God”! Or are you just listening to what other men say?
HI WJ,My understanding comes from the Word of God. The Holy Spirit (I believe) leads me to certain Scriptures when I am having doubts, but no amount of Spirit is going to convince me that the truth lies outside of the Scriptures. That's a dangerous game, because we know that Satan can disguise himself as a spirit of light.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,12:56) Hi WJ, Listen to you!
You sound like someone who “worships” the great AT Robertson. He is a man, not a fourth in your Godhead! “A bunch of unknowns”? What are you, a groupie of AT Robertson or something? Is he the only man on the planet that speaks Greek and Hebrew?
MikeI only use AT Robertson as an example of the many thousands because he is a renown Greek Scholar world wide.
Why do you defend the NWT that was translated by a bunch of no names that could not read a single Hebrew or Greek sentence?
None of the Translating commitee had a single degree in Bliblical Hebrew or Greek! Hello!
But use that faulty translation all you want and it will cost you when Jack or myself show you their corruption!
Blessings WJ
By the Way, why is it that the NWT is not found on Biblegateway.com or Blueleterbible.org. You should stick with credible translations!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:30) The thing is do you believe they are saved? If you do then that in itself should tell you something.
Hi WJ,Quote Matthew 7:21 NIV
“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.Think about it WJ – are you saved? Are you doing the will of the Father. Not the Father/Son/Spirit trinity, but THE FATHER?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:48) Mike Listen my friend. If they say Jesus is Michael that is a cultic claim.
Hi WJ,Then if you confess that Jesus is God Almighty, you too are a cult.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:14) Mike No it takes the Spirit of God to reveal the Truth to men from the scriptures. Are you 100% sure of yourself? Has God shown you that Jesus is not the “True God”! Or are you just listening to what other men say?
HI WJ,My understanding comes from the Word of God. The Holy Spirit (I believe) leads me to certain Scriptures when I am having doubts, but no amount of Spirit is going to convince me that the truth lies outside of the Scriptures. That's a dangerous game, because we know that Satan can disguise himself as a spirit of light.
peace and love,
mike
MikeWell I assure you my friend that I know in whom I have believed (2 Tim 1:12).
The Holy Spirit has shown me who Jesus really is, and I would be willing to die before I deny him!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:56) Ask yourself why Jesus never mentioned his divine name? Can you find the Apostles using it? If so where except in the corrupted NWT?
Hi WJ,This is from another topic I started:
Quote Most Bible translations do not use the name Jehovah anymore. The reasons why can be summed up by the preface of the Revised Standard Version. It says that while the original American Standard Version rendered the tetragrammaton as Jehovah, their revised version uses the word LORD in all capital letters for two reasons: 1. “…the word 'Jehovah' does not accurately represent any form of the name ever used in Hebrew.”
Well, neither does Jesus or any other biblical name.
2. “…the use of amy proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom He had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.”
While I understand the human logic of this last statement, and acknowledge that the divine name Jehovah is not used in the New Testament, it is nevertheless still God's name. And since it was men, not Jehovah himself, who decided at some point that we should not use the divine name anymore, we should try to, “…have in mind the things of God, (not) the things of men.” (Matthew 16:23)
And I told you in another post that while I like the NWT, I don't approve of them inserting the Divine name into the NT.
I should have re-mentioned that in this post, sorry.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:30) The thing is do you believe they are saved? If you do then that in itself should tell you something.
Hi WJ,Quote Matthew 7:21 NIV
“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.Think about it WJ – are you saved? Are you doing the will of the Father. Not the Father/Son/Spirit trinity, but THE FATHER?
MikeAbsolutely! But don't leave the Son and the Holy Spirit out like you anti-trinitarians are so accustomed to doing!
Paul said his prize was Jesus and that he was a Bondslave and Prisoner of Jesus.
How about you?
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:56) Ask yourself why Jesus never mentioned his divine name? Can you find the Apostles using it? If so where except in the corrupted NWT?
Hi WJ,This is from another topic I started:
Quote Most Bible translations do not use the name Jehovah anymore. The reasons why can be summed up by the preface of the Revised Standard Version. It says that while the original American Standard Version rendered the tetragrammaton as Jehovah, their revised version uses the word LORD in all capital letters for two reasons: 1. “…the word 'Jehovah' does not accurately represent any form of the name ever used in Hebrew.”
Well, neither does Jesus or any other biblical name.
2. “…the use of amy proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom He had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.”
While I understand the human logic of this last statement, and acknowledge that the divine name Jehovah is not used in the New Testament, it is nevertheless still God's name. And since it was men, not Jehovah himself, who decided at some point that we should not use the divine name anymore, we should try to, “…have in mind the things of God, (not) the things of men.” (Matthew 16:23)
And I told you in another post that while I like the NWT, I don't approve of them inserting the Divine name into the NT.
I should have re-mentioned that in this post, sorry.
peace and love,
mike
MikeWell if they can be so wrong about his name then why would you trust their translation at all.
This is why you cannot find their translation on Blueletterbible.org or Biblegateway.com!
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:48) Mike Listen my friend. If they say Jesus is Michael that is a cultic claim.
Hi WJ,Then if you confess that Jesus is God Almighty, you too are a cult.
peace and love,
mike
MikeAnd if you do not confess Jesus as you Lord and God then you may be part of a cult.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, “BECAUSE THOU HAST SEEN ME, thou hast believed“: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:28, 29
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior“, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
Big capital “G” by the translators.
Tell you what, name one “attribute” of the Father that Jesus does not have and I will show you scripture that says he does!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,05:11) Mike Well I assure you my friend that I know in whom I have believed (2 Tim 1:12).
The Holy Spirit has shown me who Jesus really is, and I would be willing to die before I deny him!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,That's great!
And when you or Jack show me credible evidence (not conjecture) from Scripture that Jesus is God Almighty, then I will become a Trinitarian.
If the “Holy Spirit” is showing you something that's not in Scripture to be the truth, I'd be very careful, my friend. It could actually be that deceiver showing himself as an angel of light.
The Scriptures are there for a reason. They teach the real truth. Rely on them. Paul says:
Quote 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. BTW, this is from the NWT. Does it say something different than the Trinitarian translations?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,05:22) Mike Well if they can be so wrong about his name then why would you trust their translation at all.
Hi WJ,They are not “wrong” about the Name. They just insert it when there is no doubt about who the Scripture is talking about. And they aren't the only translation that does this.
peace and love,
mike
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