- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,20:44) Pierre,
It just goes to show you that you can have a Bible and not know everything in it.
Kathi
you can posses all the books in the world and still do not understand Gods word,remember this is not men's word it is Gods and so only God can show you the understanding.
and your understanding is only equal to you self holy nature.
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2011,14:14) t8,
I didn't ask you to read a 'book,' just some documents which are 1-3 pages long, heck, just read the three that I have put up so far. I would hardly call that a 'book.' Also, I would hardly describe me as bouncing around from one thing to another. Geesh! I have been expressing that Jesus was the literal Son of God since day one here. I'm just growing in more understanding of what that really means. Take a chill pill t8.Just read this, for example, and tell me why you think the trinity doctrine is being taught here. I don't see the word 'trinity' here, nor 'three in one' nor 'triune Godhead' nor calling the Holy Spirit a person. What here do you think is unscriptural?
Quote For this One who put on a body is God, the Son of God, Son of the essence of His Father, and Son of the nature of Him who begat Him: for He is the adorable brightness of His Godhead, and is the glorious manifestation of His majesty, and together with His Father He existed from eternity and from everlasting, His arm, and His right hand, and His power, and His wisdom, and His strength, and the living Spirit which is from Him, the Expiator and Sanctifier of all His worshippers. The above excerpt from the document in the sixth post down on this page and also found here in its entirety: http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-147
Kathi
Bump for t8Kathi! Sorry, but I don't get it??? Is it so important to you to take a chance and believe mere men, rather then Scriptures?
1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
These are the Scriptures why I don't worship Jesus. I only Worship Almighty God, and Honor Jesus our Savior and Christ….
Peace and love Irene
Irene,
I believe these men because they are saying what I believe the Lord had shown me before I ever saw what these men had written.I am glad that you realize that your beliefs do not line up with the apostle's writings here. It is important that you see that. Now it is up to you to dig deeper to see if they are saying what lines up with scripture and what many early church father's also say, or not. From my research, they are in agreement.
Imagine, Irene, what it would have been like to be one of those first apostles who was there at Pentecost and given the gift of speaking in a language that was not known to them but known to people from another country. Every thing that they said in that language was truth. The Holy Spirit was the one who testified about Christ, Christ did not seek to honor Himself. These apostles went out speaking to those who understood their gifted language and were able to interpret what the apostles were saying. The apostles must have been increasing in knowledge as to who Christ was when they learned what the Spirit was saying through them about Christ.
They understood that the Son was from everlasting with the Father and the creator. They understood that He was God by nature begotten by the Father. These things I understood before I read the documents or early church father's writings. Obviously from what we see on HN, this understanding comes by the Spirit as the Spirit gives understanding to the scriptures. The understanding that the apostles had is different than your understanding. The same verses that you put up are also used of the early church father's. They are aware of these verses. They agree that the Father is greater than the Son, that is why one is the Father and one is the Son. That is proof that there are more than one person in the Godhead, lest anyone think that the Father is the Son or the Son is the Father.
This next historical ancient Syriac document is about Barsamya, the Christian Bishop that led the priest of idols named Sharbil, to Christ. The last document that I put up was about him (on page 5 of this thread).
Further, the Martyrdom of Barsamya,(1)
the Bishop of the Blessed City Edessa.
In the year four hundred and sixteen of the kingdom of the Greeks, that is the fifteenth year of the reign of the sovereign ruler, our lord, Trajan Caesar, in the consulship of Commodus and Cyrillus,(2) in the month Ilul, on the fifth day of the month, the day after Lysinus,(3) the judge of the country, had heard the case of Sharbil the priest; as the judge was sitting in his judgment-hall, the Sharirs of the city came before him and said to him: We give information before thine Excellency concerning Barsamya, the leader of the Christians, that he went up to Sharbil, the priest, as he was standing and ministering before the venerable gods, and sent and called him to him secretly, and spoke to him, quoting from the books in which he reads in the church where their congregation meets, and recited to him the belief of the Christians, and said to him, “It is not right for thee to worship many gods, but only one God, and His Son Jesus Christ”-until he made him a disciple, and induced him to renounce the gods whom he had formerly worshipped; and by means of Sharbil himself also many have become disciples, and are gone down to the church, and lo! this day they confess Christ; and even Avida, and Nebo,(4) and Barcalba, and Hafsai, honourable and chief persons of the city, have yielded to Sharbil in this. We, accordingly, as Sharirs of the city, make this known before thine Excellency, in order that we may not receive punishment as offenders for not having declared before thine Excellency the things which were spoken in secret to Sharbil by Barsamya the guide of the church. Thine Excellency now knoweth what it is fight to command in respect of this said matter.
And, immediately that the judge heard these things, he sent the Sharirs of the city, and some of his attendants with them, to go down to the church and bring up Barsamya from the church. And they led him and brought him up to the judgment-hall of the judge; and there went up many Christians with him, saying: We also will die with Barsamya, because we too are of one mind with him in respect to the doctrine of which he made Sharbil a disciple, and in all that he spoke to him, and in all the instruction that Sharbil received from him, so that he was persuaded by him, and died for the sake of that which he heard from him.
And the Sharirs of the city came, and said to the judge: Barsamya, as thine Excellency commanded, lo! is standing at the door of the judgment-hall of thy Lordship;(5) and honourable chief-persons of the city, who became disciples along with Sharbil, lo! are standing by Barsamya, and crying out, “We will all die with Barsamya, who is our teacher and guide.”
And, when the judge heard those things which the Sharirs of the city had told him, he commanded them to go out and write down the names of the persons who were crying out, “We will die with Barsamya.” And, when they went out to write down the names of these persons, those who so cried out were too many for them, and they were not able to write down their names, because they were so many: for the cry kept coming to them from all sides, that they “would die for Christ's sake along with Barsamya.”
And, when the tumult of the crowd became great, the Sharirs of the city turned back, and came in to the judge, and said to him: We are not able to write down the names of the persons who are crying aloud outside, because they are too many to be numbered. And the judge commanded that Barsamya should be taken up to the prison, so that the crowd might be dispersed which was collected together about him, lest through the tumult of the multitude there should be some mischief in the city. And, when he went up the gaol, those who had become disciples along with Sharbil continued with him.
And after many days were passed the judge rose up in the morning and went down to his judgment-hall, in order that he might hear the case of Barsamya. And the judge commanded, and they brought him from the prison; and he came in and stood before him. The officers said: Lo, he standeth before thine Excellency.
The judge said: Art thou Barsamya, who hast been made ruler and guide of the people of the Christians, and didst make a disciple of Sharbil, who was chief-priest of the gods, and used to worship them?
Barsamya said: It is I who have done this, and I do not deny it; and I am prepared to die for the truth of this.
The judge said: How is it that thou wast not afraid of the command of the emperors, so that, when the emperors commanded that every one should sacrifice, thou didst induce Sharbil, when he was standing and sacrificing to the gods and offering incense to them, to deny that which he had confessed, and confess Christ whom he had denied?
Barsamya said: I was assuredly(6) made a shepherd of men, not for the sake of those only who are found, but also for the sake of those who have strayed from the fold of truth, and become food for the wolves of paganism; and, had I not sought to make Sharbil a disciple, at my hands would his blood have been required; and, if he had not listened to me, I should have been innocent of his blood.
The judge said: Now, therefore, since thou hast confessed that it was thou that madest Sharbil a disciple, at thy hands will I require his death; and on this account it is right that thou rather than he shouldest be condemned before me, because by thy hands he has died the horrible deaths of grievous tortures for having abandoned the command of the emperors and obeyed thy words.
Barsamya said: Not to my words did Sharbil become a disciple, but to the word of God which He spoke: “Thou shalt not worship images and the likenesses of men.” And it is not I alone that am content to die the death of Sharbil for his confession of Christ, but also all the Christians, members of the Church, are likewise eager for this, because they know that they will secure their salvation before God thereby.
The judge said: Answer me not in this manner, like Sharbil thy disciple, lest thine own torments be worse than his; but promise that thou wilt sacrifice before the gods on his behalf.
Barsamya said: Sharbil, who knew not God, I taught to know Him: and dost thou bid me, who have known God from my youth, to renounce God? God forbid that I should do this thing!
The judge said: Ye have made the whole creation disciples of the teaching of Christ; and lo! they renounce the many gods whom the many worshipped. Give up this way of thinking,(7) lest I make those who are near tremble at thee as they behold thee to-day, and those also that are afar off as they hear of the torments to which thou art condemned.
Barsamya said: If God is the help of those who pray to Him, who is he that can resist them? Or what is the power that can prevail against them? Or thine own threats-what can they do to them: to men who, before thou give commandment concerning them that they shall die, have their death already set before their eyes, and are expecting it every day?
The judge said: Bring not the subject of Christ before my judgment-seat; but, instead of this, obey the command of the emperors, who command to sacrifice to the gods.
Barsamya said: Even though we should not lay the subject of Christ before thee, yet the sufferings of Christ are portrayed indelibly(8) in the worshippers of Christ; and, even more than thou hearkenest to the commands of the emperors, do we Christians hearken to the commands of Christ the King of kings.
The judge said: Lo! thou hast obeyed Christ and worshipped him up to his day: henceforth obey the emperors, and worship the gods whom the emperors worship.
Barsamya said: How canst thou bid me renounce that in which I was
born? when lo! thou didst exact punishment for this at the hand of Sharbil, and saidst to him: Why hast thou renounced the paganism in which thou wast born, and confessed Christianity to which thou wast a stranger? Lo! even before I came into thy presence thou didst thyself give testimony on the matter beforehand, and saidst to Sharbil: The Christians, to whom thou art gone over, do not renounce that in which they were born, but continue in it. Abide, therefore, by the word, which thou hast spoken.The judge said: Let Barsamya be scourged, because he has rebelled against the command of the emperors, and has caused those also who were obedient to the emperors to rebel with him.
And, when he had been scourged by five men, he said to him: Reject not the command of the emperors, nor insult the emperors' gods.
Barsamya said: Thy mind is greatly blinded, O judge, and so also is that of the emperors who gave thee authority; nor are the things that are manifest seen by you; nor do ye perceive that lo! the whole creation worships Christ; and thou sayest to me, Do not worship Him, as if I alone worshipped Him-Him whom the watchers(9) above worship on high.
The judge said: But if ye have taught men to worship Christ, who is it that has persuaded those above to worship Christ?
Barsamya said: Those above have themselves preached, and have taught those below concerning the living worship of the King Christ, seeing that they worship Him, and His Father, together with His divine Spirit.(10)
The judge said: Give up these things which your writings teach you, and which ye teach also to others, and obey those things which the emperors have commanded, and spurn not their laws-lest ye be spurned by means of the sword from the light of this venerable sun.
Barsamya said: The light which passeth away and abideth not is not the true light, but is only the similitude of that true light, to whose beams darkness cometh not near, which is reserved and standeth fast for the true worshippers of Christ.
The judge said: Speak not before me of anything else instead of that about which I have asked thee, lest I dismiss thee from life to death, for denying this light which is seen and confessing that which is not seen.
Barsamya said: I cannot leave alone that about which thou askest me, and speak of that about which thou dost not ask me. It was thou that spakest to me about the light of the sun, and I said before thee that there is a light on high which surpasses in its brightness that of the sun which thou dost worship and honour. For an account will be required of thee for worshipping thy fellow-creature instead of God thy Creator.
The judge said: Do not insult the very sun, the light of creatures, nor set thou at nought the command of the emperors, nor contentiously resist the lords of the country, who have authority in it.
Barsamya said: Of what avail is the light of the sun to a blind man that cannot see it? For without the eyes of the body, it is not possible for its beams to be seen. So that by this thou mayest know that it is the work of God, forasmuch as it has no power of its own to show its light to the sightless.
The judge said: When I have tortured thee as thou deservest, then will I write word about thee to the Imperial government, reporting what insult thou hast offered to the gods, in that thou madest a disciple of Sharbil the priest, one who honoured the gods, and that ye despise the laws of the emperors, and that ye make no account of the judges of the countries, and live like barbarians, though under the authority of the Romans
Barsamya said: Thou dost not terrify me by these things which thou sayest. It is true, I am not in the presence of the emperors to-day; yet lo! before the authority which the emperors have given thee I am now standing, and I am brought to trial, because I said, I will not renounce God, to whom the heavens and the earth belong, nor His Son Jesus Christ, the King of all the earth.
The judge said: If thou art indeed assured of this, that thou art standing and being tried before the authority of the emperors, obey their commands, and rebel not against their laws, lest like a rebel thou receive the punishment of death.
Barsamya said: But if those who rebel against the emperors, even when they justly rebel, are deserving of death, as thou sayest; for those who rebel against God, the King of kings, even the punishment of death by the sword is too little.The judge said: It was not that thou shouldest expound in my judgment-hall that thou wast brought in before me, because the trial on which thou standest has but little concern with expounding, but much concern with the punishment of death, for those who insult the emperors and comply not with their laws.
Barsamya said: Because God is not before your eyes, and ye refuse to hear the word of God; and graven images that are of no use, “which have a mouth and speak not,” are accounted by you as though they spake, because your understanding is blinded by the darkness of paganism in which ye stand-
The judge interrupting said: Leave off those things thou art saying, for they will not help thee at all, and worship the gods, before the bitter tearings of combs and harsh tortures come upon thee.
Barsamya said: Do thou too leave off the many questions which lo! thou askest me, and give command for the stripes and the combs with which thou dost menace me: for thy words will not help thee so much as thy inflictions will help me.
The judge said: Let Barsamya be hanged up and torn with combs.
And at that very moment there came to him letters from Alusis(11) the chief proconsul, father of emperors.(12) And he commanded, and they took down Barsamya, and he was not torn with combs; and they took him outside of the hall of judgment.
And the judge commanded that the nobles, and the chief persons, and the princes, and the honourable persons of the city, should come before him, that they might hear what was the order that was issued by the emperors, by the hand of the proconsuls, the rulers of the countries under the authority of the Romans. And it was found that the emperors had written by the hand of the proconsuls to the judges of the countries:(13) “Since our Majesty commanded that there should be a persecution against the people of the Christians, we have heard and learned, from the Sharirs whom we have in the countries under the dominion of our Majesty, that the people of the Christians are persons who eschew murder, and sorcery, and adultery, and theft, and bribery and fraud, and those things for which the laws of our Majesty also exact punishment from those who commit them. We, therefore, in our impartial justice, have commanded that on account of these things the persecution of the sword shall cease from them, and that there shall be rest and quietness in all our dominions, they continuing to minister according to their custom and no man hindering them. It is not, however, towards them that we show clemency, but towards their laws, agreeing as they do with the laws of our Majesty. And, if any man hinder them after this our command, that sword which is ordered by us to descend upon those who despise our command, the same do we command to descend upon those who despise this decree of our clemency.”
And, when this command of the emperor's clemency was read, the whole city rejoiced that there was quietness and rest for every man. And the judge commanded, and they released Barsamya, that he might go down to his church. And the Christians went up in great numbers to the judgment-hall, together with a great multitude of the population of the city, and they received Barsamya with great and exceeding honour, repeating psalms before him, according to their custom; there went also the wives of the chief of the wise men. And they thronged about him, and saluted him, and called him “the persecuted confessor,” “the companion of Sharbil he martyr.” And he said to them: Persecuted I am, like yourselves; but from th
e tortures and combs of Sharbil and his companions I am clean escaped.(14) And they said to him: We have heard from thee that a teacher of the Church has said, “The will, according to what it is, so is it accepted.”(15) And, when he was entered into the church, he and all the people that were with him, he stood up and prayed, and blessed them and sent them away to their homes rejoicing and praising God for the deliverance which He had wrought for them and for the Church.And the day after Lysinas(16) the judge of the country had set his hand to these Acts, he was dismissed from his authority.
I Zenophilus and Patrophilus are the notaries who wrote these Acts, Diodorus and Euterpes,(17) Sharirs of the city, bearing witness with us by setting-to their hand, as the ancient laws of the ancient kings command.
This(18) Barsamya, bishop of Edessa, who made a disciple of Sharbil, the priest of the same city, lived in the days of Fabianus, bishop of the city of Rome. And ordination to the priesthood was received by Barsamya from Abshelama, who was bishop in Edessa; and by Abshelama ordination was received from Palut the First; and by Palut ordination was received from Serapion, bishop of Antioch; and by Serapion ordination was received from Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome; and Zephyrinus of Rome received ordination from Victor of the same place, viz., Rome; and Victor received ordination from Eleutherius; and Eleutherius received it from Sorer; and Soter received it from Anicetus; and Anicetus received it from Dapius;(19) and Dapius received it from Telesphorus; and Telesphorus received it from Xystus;(20) and Xystus received it from Alexander; and Alexander received it from Evartis;(21) and Evartis received it from Cletus; and Cletus received it from Anus;(22) and Anus received it from Simon Cephas; and Simon Cephas received it from our Lord, together with his fellow-apostles, on the first day of the week, the day of the ascension of our Lord to His glorious Father, which was the fourth day of Heziran,(23) which was is the nineteenth(24) year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, in the consulship of Rufus and Rubelinus, which year was the year 341; for in the year 309 occurred the advent(25) of our Saviour in the world, according to the testimony which we ourselves have found in a correct register(26) among the archives, which errs not at all in whatever it sets forth.
Here endeth the martyrdom of Barsamya, bishop of Edessa.
Found here with footnotes: http://www.studylight.org/his….148.htm
Quote (Lightenup @ June 10 2011,05:10) Irene,
I believe these men because they are saying what I believe the Lord had shown me before I ever saw what these men had written.I am glad that you realize that your beliefs do not line up with the apostle's writings here. It is important that you see that. Now it is up to you to dig deeper to see if they are saying what lines up with scripture and what many early church father's also say, or not. From my research, they are in agreement.
Imagine, Irene, what it would have been like to be one of those first apostles who was there at Pentecost and given the gift of speaking in a language that was not known to them but known to people from another country. Every thing that they said in that language was truth. The Holy Spirit was the one who testified about Christ, Christ did not seek to honor Himself. These apostles went out speaking to those who understood their gifted language and were able to interpret what the apostles were saying. The apostles must have been increasing in knowledge as to who Christ was when they learned what the Spirit was saying through them about Christ.
They understood that the Son was from everlasting with the Father and the creator. They understood that He was God by nature begotten by the Father. These things I understood before I read the documents or early church father's writings. Obviously from what we see on HN, this understanding comes by the Spirit as the Spirit gives understanding to the scriptures. The understanding that the apostles had is different than your understanding. The same verses that you put up are also used of the early church father's. They are aware of these verses. They agree that the Father is greater than the Son, that is why one is the Father and one is the Son. That is proof that there are more than one person in the Godhead, lest anyone think that the Father is the Son or the Son is the Father.
Kathy! How wrong can you get. The Apostles walked with Christ, and believed what Christ said. Would they then turn around and say that Christ is for example equal to Almighty God? I said it before I doubt Peter wrote that Article or any other Article that would contradict the Scriptures I gave you!!!
I also believe that you have been taken away from the truth. Why, I don't know. That you have to figure out.I believe that the Trinitarians will do anything to further their wrong doctrine and confuse those weak, what Scriptures really say. It is as simple as that….
I am with t8, I will not be tossed back and forth, because someone claims what Peter wrote. What makes you think, that they are right, and Scriptures are wrong. Their believe does NOT line up with Scriptures. And therefore I believe its a le….Peace Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2011,08:00) Irene,
Where in these articles does it use the words that says Christ is equal to Almighty God?Kathi
Kathiyour document promote the glory of men ,so it can not be of God and so it can not be used for truth of God,
you have gone to men s world to search for God ,you will never find him.
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2011,01:00) Irene,
Where in these articles does it use the words that says Christ is equal to Almighty God?Kathi
KATHI! I did not read those articles, only what you are saying. And what you are saying is not according to Scriptures. Did I say I don't believe what the Apostles are saying? Jesus had a beginning too. He did not exist before He was brought forth by Almighty God, and became His Son. To be in existing, you have to exist….. Not in the mind of God…..
Again I don't care what mere men say….I believe the Bible, and I did say that before, so since the apostles wrote the NT. how can you say, I don't believe them?? I also did not put to much work into this post, since I feel so bad…. just trying to get away from thinking about me….. Irene
Ps Please go to the prayer tread…..Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,06:14) t8,
I didn't ask you to read a 'book,' just some documents which are 1-3 pages long, heck, just read the three that I have put up so far. I would hardly call that a 'book.' Also, I would hardly describe me as bouncing around from one thing to another. Geesh! I have been expressing that Jesus was the literal Son of God since day one here. I'm just growing in more understanding of what that really means. Take a chill pill t8.Just read this, for example, and tell me why you think the trinity doctrine is being taught here. I don't see the word 'trinity' here, nor 'three in one' nor 'triune Godhead' nor calling the Holy Spirit a person. What here do you think is unscriptural?
Quote For this One who put on a body is God, the Son of God, Son of the essence of His Father, and Son of the nature of Him who begat Him: for He is the adorable brightness of His Godhead, and is the glorious manifestation of His majesty, and together with His Father He existed from eternity and from everlasting, His arm, and His right hand, and His power, and His wisdom, and His strength, and the living Spirit which is from Him, the Expiator and Sanctifier of all His worshippers. The above excerpt from the document in the sixth post down on this page and also found here in its entirety: http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-147
Kathi
OK, I have taken a chill pill.It appears that you do not understand the difference between being theos in nature and theos in identity.
And with that, you imagine things which BTW is how things like the Trinity doctrine develop in the first place and is why there is no much division today. Think two thousand years of imaginings and here we are today, trying to sift the salt from the dirt.Clue: adam in nature is man and Adam in identity is a particular person.
When you understand this truth, which BTW is no secret but really just understanding how Ancient Greek and Greek works, then there is no confusion. It is merely a rule that many ignore because to ignore it further strengthens their doctrine and to accept it dispels what they want to believe.
Once you understand this, then you can read those 3 pages and understand that God from God is a being of divine nature from the Divine himself. It is not meant to be taken that they are the same God being, just as Eve is not the same being as Adam, but is in like adam/mankind, i.e., having the same nature.
Think adam from Adam, not Adam from Adam and then apply that truth and rule of language to devil of the Devil as opposed to the Devil of the Devil. And now see theos from Theos.
Its a rule Kathi. I didn't make it up.
Hi t8,
you said:Quote Once you understand this, then you can read those 3 pages and understand that God from God is a being of divine nature from the Divine himself. It is not meant to be taken that they are the same God being, just as Eve is not the same being as Adam, but is in like adam/mankind, i.e., having the same nature. I have understood this t8. I understand that the Son is not the same being as the Father. He is the Son of the Father. I believe that the Son makes the Father an Almighty God and not just God. The Son's presence with the Father strengthens the Father and to worship the Father in truth, one will recognize that the Father as the one true God is ever present with His Son and never independent of Him. So, when you worship the Father you worship the Son with Him. The Son is always a part of His Father, not as the Spirit is, but as a devoted Son.
It is sorta like this, a certain man that I will name John, was a very capable young single man in his twenties. Then one day, John met a beautiful, very capable young woman in her twenties. She was amazing also. They fell in love and they got married. Through their marriage, they blended together perfectly and complimented each other in every way. They were one of those couples that loved God and each other and actually did have the perfect marriage.
Now, tell me what you think…was John stronger before he found this woman or after? I am guessing that you would say that in the unity of him and his wife John was stronger than before they met. God did say that it was not good for a man to be alone and that it was good for him to have a help mate, after all. There is even a saying that goes like this, “behind every successful man is a good woman.” Each person in this scenario was very capable before they met, but after they met, they became more capable because John could do things that were easier for a man and his girl could do things that were easier for a girl to do. Together they were more complete. When people just met the married John, they would see the strength of a married man without even meeting his wife. If a man is successful, he more than likely has a good woman behind him.
In my experience, I can sense the difference between a happily married man and an unhappily married man. When you think of the happily married man, you would expect a great helpmate. When you think of an unhappily married man, you might expect a not-so-great of a help mate. A great help mate will make a man stronger than who he was without her. When you acknowledge the all capable man, then you assume the help mate behind that all capable man. The strength of one is inseparable from the existence of another, even if they are apart.
I see the Father as the one true God who has a help mate. Not a 'wife' help mate, but a son help mate. The strength of the Father is inseparable from the existence of His Son. Now, I believe that the Father was always capable of all things because I believe that He always had His Son. Unlike the man in my word picture who once did not have a help mate, I believe that the Father always had a help mate. First the help mate Son was within the Father and later begotten from within the Father.
To know the Father in truth, is to know the existence of the Son and the almightiness that comes from that unity, imo.
Kathi
Quote (Pastry @ June 14 2011,17:30) Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2011,01:00) Irene,
Where in these articles does it use the words that says Christ is equal to Almighty God?Kathi
KATHI! I did not read those articles, only what you are saying. And what you are saying is not according to Scriptures. Did I say I don't believe what the Apostles are saying? Jesus had a beginning too. He did not exist before He was brought forth by Almighty God, and became His Son. To be in existing, you have to exist….. Not in the mind of God…..
Again I don't care what mere men say….I believe the Bible, and I did say that before, so since the apostles wrote the NT. how can you say, I don't believe them?? I also did not put to much work into this post, since I feel so bad…. just trying to get away from thinking about me….. Irene
Ps Please go to the prayer tread…..
Irene,
You ought to read the articles, you may be surprised by what they are saying. I'm sorry you are feeling lousy. I hope you feel better very soon.Love and prayers,
KathiKathi
to make your argument simple ,if man and women make one when they marry ,so they are only half both of them ?
In God case it not so ;God was alone before he created anything ,so their was no one to join the fact that God create is his love means given not taking,can anyone give to God so that now God is tributary to him?
in your example if one side stopped to give it would become a burden to the other,
God is a giver not a taker,
we all have to become like the father GIVERS now we are takers in the flesh so lets learn to be true giver to the image of God
Pierre
even Christ all his given to him ,this is why he says that the father loves him,and look how he is teaching us to be giversPierre,
Then according to you, God does not receive love from us because He is not a 'taker' as you say.Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,00:05) Pierre,
Then according to you, God does not receive love from us because He is not a 'taker' as you say.
Kathireturning glory to God because he loves you is righteous and truth
Love him for his Loving to us is like getting one million and give one penny back
this is why our commitment to God as to be full without restriction
all are hearts ,mind and strength in this way we can show our thanks to him or our true love,even if we do not love him he still gives us live and feed us but for a time only.
Pierre
Pierre,
This part of your comment was what I thought was incorrect: “God is a giver not a taker,…”
Now you seem to retract that idea knowing that we can give God our love and that gives God glory. Therefore He receives, or takes that love from us that we want to give Him.As you know, I do not agree that the Son was created. The Son was the creator with the Father, not one of the created. That is a huge difference between you and myself.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,00:34) Pierre,
This part of your comment was what I thought was incorrect: “God is a giver not a taker,…”
Now you seem to retract that idea knowing that we can give God our love and that gives God glory. Therefore He receives, or takes that love from us that we want to give Him.As you know, I do not agree that the Son was created. The Son was the creator with the Father, not one of the created. That is a huge difference between you and myself.
Kathiplease answer this question;,can anyone give to God so that now God is tributary to him?
and now tell me i am wrong
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2011,01:00) Irene,
Where in these articles does it use the words that says Christ is equal to Almighty God?Kathi
Greetings Kathi ….. I can see that you are engrossed in interlectual pursuit and Iam sure it is exciting,in addition sharing it with this forum makes this infomation available for all who choose to embrace it…. Some how I get losted in the purpose….is this an exercise to support the authority of the scriptures or to challenge it….It is exciting to delve into the lives of the apostles beyond the confinds of the written word….The one item that has always intrigued me was touched upon in mathew when it spoke of Jesus' brothers,which numbered four plus himself as well as at least two sisters….This substanciates the carnality of Mary and brings into question numerous doctrinal precepts of catholicism….what do you think..Pierre,
As far as man goes, man cannot give any material things to God that God doesn't already own. But man can give his allegiance to God…man does have a choice in that. So, God is dependent on man only in the man's choice to choose God to be his God. God has a righteous jealousy towards us. He wants the best for us and wants to protect and love us, but God is dependent on our cooperation. He has not made us robots.34:12 Be careful not to make 25 a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it become a snare 26 among you. 34:13 Rather you must destroy their altars, smash their images, and cut down their Asherah poles. 27 34:14 For you must not worship 28 any other god, 29 for the Lord, whose name 30 is Jealous, is a jealous God. 34:15 Be careful 31 not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when 32 they prostitute themselves 33 to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone invites you, 34 you will eat from his sacrifice; 34:16 and you then take 35 his daughters for your sons, and when his daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will make your sons prostitute themselves to their gods as well. 34:17 You must not make yourselves molten gods.
In regards to the Son, God, the Father has an interdependence on the Son and His Spirit if God is going to be a supplier of eternal life to others, or seen by man, or heard by man or dwell with man for instance. Apart from the Son, God has eternal life in Himself but is not a giver of eternal life…God is interdependent on the Son and the Son is interdependent on the Father as well as their interdependence on the Spirit.
Maybe this can help:
Mighty God-the Father + Mighty God-the Son + their united Spirit = the ONE Almighty God, our Father who can do all things…nothing is impossible with Him. The almightiness of God our Father is inseparable from the existence of the Son and the Spirit, imo. This is why I believe in the eternal Son…not created at one time, merely begotten from within. I believe the Father was always Almighty, His almightiness is interdependent on the existence of the Son.
If we take away the Son or the Spirit from that equation, we do not have a God who is our Father or our Savior and giver of eternal life. The muslims do not recognize the Son, they do not include the Son in their definition of God and they do not have a God who is their Father and giver of eternal life since the Son is the only way to the Father. The Son of God, to them is merely a prophet if I understand their belief on this correctly. They may think that they can be given eternal life apart from acknowledging the Sonship of Christ.
1 John 5:11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Love to you Pierre,
Kathi
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
