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Quote (journey42 @ April 20 2014,08:00) Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2014,09:58) Jammin, Deuteronomy 32:26
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)26 I said, I would scatter them into corners,
I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:Psalm 9:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end:
and thou hast destroyed cities;
their memorial is perished with them.Psalm 34:16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)16 The face of the Lord is against them that do evil,
to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.Psalm 109:15
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)15 Let them be before the Lord continually,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.Ecclesiastes 9:5
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The same word in the same form is used five times in the OT and not once does say what you want it to say.
KerwinIt's Journey, not Jammin.
This is where you go off into a tangent and away from the real subject. The wicked will be remembered no more once all are thrown into the lake of fire. I agree with that.
We are speaking of all those dead in their graves now.The dead are dead. The scriptures say the dead know nothing. You are rejecting the Words of the Lord, and preaching a different doctrine.
You say, their souls are sitting somewhere awaiting judgement. That means that they are still thinking. Their brain is still working. If what you say is true, then they would still have love, hatred, and all those things the living have. They would still have a memory whilst dead.
And your only proof? A parable that Jesus would give to those whom he didn't want to understand!
Journey,Every one of these the same word and every one is speaking about the wicked being remembered no more. So the question becomes is Ecclesiastes 9:5 speaking of the final death and not the one that people arise from. After all there is no further reward for those that suffer the final death, nor is there any remembrance of them.
Here is the more of the passage and see if you can find a way to not accuse Jesus of spreading heresy.
Ecclesiastes 9:3-5
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.Gene,
Quote Peter said on day of Pentecost that King David was dead and not risen, Jesus is the only one raised from the dead back to eternal life and still is to this day. I am not speaking about the resurrected. I am speaking if those whose bodies lie in the burial place and whose souls have descended to Hell.
Acts 2:29
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
He is speaking of David burial place not Hell.
Jesus states about Jesus “he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell,”
Luke 16:22-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Notice the rich man was in hell just like Jesus' soul. So instead of accusing Jesus of spreading heresy figure a solution to why he was speaking the truth about hell.
Hi,
A selection of verse from Ecclesiates.
Note the common words
UNDER THE SUN
He is concerned only with what is of the visible world.
Ecclesiastes 2:20
Therefore I went about to cause my heart to despair of all the labour which I took under the sun.Ecclesiastes 2:22
For what hath man of all his labour, and of the vexation of his heart, wherein he hath laboured under the sun?Ecclesiastes 3:16
And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.Ecclesiastes 4:1
So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.Ecclesiastes 4:3
Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.Ecclesiastes 4:7
Then I returned, and I saw vanity under the sun.Ecclesiastes 4:15
I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with the second child that shall stand up in his stead.Ecclesiastes 5:13
There is a sore evil which I have seen under the sun, namely, riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt.Ecclesiastes 5:18
Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it is his portion.Ecclesiastes 6:1
There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, and it is common among men:Ecclesiastes 6:12
For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?Ecclesiastes 8:9
All this have I seen, and applied my heart unto every work that is done under the sun: there is a time wherein one man ruleth over another to his own hurt.Ecclesiastes 8:15
Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labour the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun.Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,14:30) Journey, I know what you say but your word on this matter accuses Jesus of using heresy to teach a lesson. Why you believe he would even do such a thing is beyond me.
KerwinTo say I am accusing Jesus of committing heresy is a BIG ACCUSATION.
It is a parable. And you have misunderstood the message of the parable.
Once you are dead, you can't change anything.
All your works go to the grave with you.
You will miss out, and be without the kingdom,
and all the others in there will be comforted.So you can't use that parable of proof that something happens beyond the grave.
Jesus said this for a reason;Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2014,17:32) Hi J42,
Parables are not lies or fantasies
Nick.Parables are there for everyone like you;incase you can see and hear,for they are dull of hearing.
wakeup.
When he said this, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Lk 8:9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant.
Lk 8:10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
“ ‘though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.’Lk 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Lk 10:26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
Lk 10:27 He answered: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’’”
Lk 10:28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”JESUS WAS TALKING TO A JEW LIKE HIM
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2014,21:06) Hi WU,
It is unwise to judge the words of Jesus
NickHe just quoted the words of Jesus.
Not judged them.
You took offence at those words.You said parables are not lies or fantasies,
so what do you think then?
Do you think the dead are not really dead also?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2014,17:32) Hi J42,
Parables are not lies or fantasies
Nick……..Parables are “factious illustrations” they can not be taken literal, we must apply them to there intended means, to drive the truth. I know you know this.A living Soul must contain a Body of some kind, God said man became a living Soul when he breathed the breath of life into him. No scripture say a man was a living soul before this happens or after he quiets breathing and dies either. Our soul is not separate from our bodies, When a man dies his Spirit goes back to the one who gave it, and his body goes to the grave and return back to dust from which it came.
He exist no more in any state of existences, and unless he is resurrected and given a new body and the breath of life added back into it, he will never exist again. That is how God can destroy a living soul by leaving it in the grave and it will remain dead forever, should it not be resurrected. It is absolutely crucial we attain to the resurrection in order to continue to live. The dead are dead they are not still alive and active in any shape or form.
That is why Jesus said we need to fear God and not Man, because it is God who can simply leave our bodies in the grave and keep the spirit separate from it and we who are living souls will parish for ever.
This is the way i see it and get from scriptures, I do believe Journey is right on this one Nick.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2014,12:32) Gene, Quote Peter said on day of Pentecost that King David was dead and not risen, Jesus is the only one raised from the dead back to eternal life and still is to this day. I am not speaking about the resurrected. I am speaking if those whose bodies lie in the burial place and whose souls have descended to Hell.
Acts 2:29
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
He is speaking of David burial place not Hell.
Jesus states about Jesus “he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell,”
Luke 16:22-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Notice the rich man was in hell just like Jesus' soul. So instead of accusing Jesus of spreading heresy figure a solution to why he was speaking the truth about hell.
Kerwin……..the word Hell come to us from the English/ Latin word Hellos, which mean to put in the ground or grave, it is not some Mystical Place of the living dead.I do believe Journey is right on this one Kerwin.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene,
Scripture declares that the rich man went into hell and saw Lazarus, another dead man, far off at Abraham's Bosom. It is clear Jesus is not speaking of a body in the ground seeing another body far off even though Jesus used the word translated hell in the KJ versions.
David foretold that God would not leave Jesus' soul in hell nor would Jesus' body see corruption, Acts 2:27.
He is speaking of two different things the soul that is not left and hell and the body that does not see corruption. Like with Jesus the rich that is in hell is a soul without a body.
It is know that there was a teaching about hell in the second temple period that has a pleasant side called the bosom of Abraham, a variation of that same teaching Jesus used in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. According to you that teaching Jesus used in his parable is heresy. I hold the idea that Jesus would use heresy in an example is in itself an unclean teaching.
As for the meaning of hell, you should look deeper as it also is a netherworld, a place of the dead. It is of Nose origins. It may go back further than that since is also has a Gothic variation.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 21 2014,02:13) Journey …….This is also the way I see it brother. The dead are DEAD or there simply would be not need for the word DEAD. Dead is the opposite of alive. There is No activity in the Grave, no life going on, it is a complete cessation of life. There is no continued “LIVING” SOUL after death. The light are out and remain out until the Resurrection take place for all who have died. Peter said on day of Pentecost that King David was dead and not risen, Jesus is the only one raised from the dead back to eternal life and still is to this day.
The dead know absolutely nothing at all their Soul is also dead, no scripture as far as i know say a soul is still living after we die. And the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus ia Just that a Parable (fictitious illustration) , because that is what Parables are. The drive a point, but can not be take Literally.
This subject is something I think we agree one brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Hi GeneThank you for standing by the truth with me on this one.
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