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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2011,23:13)
If something/someone was created, they did not exist before they were created. If something/someone was begotten, then they already existed within and the begettal was only bringing forth someone that already existed from a position of 'inside of' to a position of 'out of.'
Whether begotten, created, or both (like Jesus and all of us), in order for ANY of those things to happen, it means there was a time when that person did not exist at all.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2011,23:13)
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) There has never been a son in the history of creation that wasn't also at one time NON-EXISTENT. There is NO scriptural reason to think this also wasn't the case with Jesus. Jesus is an exception though, isn't He………….
Ahhhhh………….the famous “exception for Jesus” logic!
Yes Kathi, Jesus is quite different from any other man who ever walked the earth. It doesn't change the fact that the words “created”, “begotten”, “born”, “son”, and “origins” are used of him. It is THOSE words that shoot your doctrine down.You can think to yourself, “Jesus was different, therefore 'begotten' doesn't really mean 'begotten' “ But that doesn't make it so.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2011,23:13)
Well, now you are being foolish. And regarding everything in creation 'existing within the Father' before it was brought forth into being makes no sense. All things, if they existed within the Father before being brought forth would be considered begotten when brought forth, not created.
I agree that polka-dotted teddy bear is foolish. It is exactly as foolish as:I WANT Jesus to have existed from eternity, so I will ignore or twist the words “begotten”, “born”, “created”, “son” and “origins” to get my way. And if that doesn't work, I'll fall back on the old, faithful “exception for Jesus” rule.
Kathi, where did the elements the earth is made out of come from originally? Did all things not come from God?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2011,23:13)
This is a really important concept to grasp Mike…begotten does not mean the beginning of existence but instead implies someone/something already exists and then is brought forth from inside to the outside.
Actually Kathi, this whole discussion is nonsensical and useless. Unless Jesus DID anything from “inside the Father” before he was “brought to the outside”, then what's the point? Why is it so important for you to think someone's SON always was? The very word “son” implies a beginning at some time.
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