A forum for those who do not run away

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 03 2011,11:39)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ t8 Here is my point, does any one pay attention to the topic? WJ, is your question relative to the topic? are there not enough threads already that address that topic? Georg

George

Would you have me "run away" from Mike and not answer him?

Isn't that what the topic is about?  

Don't you think it is good to give t8 an example of how his idea would work out in this thread?

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14)

Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ

No Keith! Jesus does not have a body in the way you define the word "body." Paul said that our "soma" will be transformed. He did not say that our "somatikos" will be transformed. The word "soma" is not the word for the physical body. It is the word for the PERSON. The word "somatikos" is the word for the physical body. John Calvin said that the word "soma" is not the body of flesh.

The Septuagint translates the Hebrew "nephesh" (soul) with the word "soma" and our English translations use the word "person."

http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_036.htm

6 Then Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the persons of his household, his cattle and all his animals, and all his goods which he had gained in the land of Canaan, and went to a country away from the presence of his brother Jacob. NKJV

Nephesh = soma = person

If paul had somewhere uses 'somatikos" in reference to the resurrection you would have an open and shut case. But he NEVER used "somatikos" in reference to the resurrection. he used the word "soma" which was used as the equivalent for "nephesh" (soul) and is sometimes translated 'person."

It is our PERSONS which will be transformed like Christ's glorious Person. Jesus does not have a body now. Paul clearly said that Jesus became a "life giving SPIRIT." However, Mike still errs in denying that Christ is still Man. He is indeed still Man but Man quintessentially and spiritually.

Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,14:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ No Keith! Jesus does not have a body in the way you define the word "body." Paul said that our "soma" will be transformed. He did not say that our "somatikos" will be transformed. The word "soma" is not the word for the physical body. It is the word for the PERSON. The word "somatikos" is the word for the physical body. John Calvin said that the word "soma" is not the body of flesh. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew "nephesh" (soul) with the word "soma" and our English translations use the word "person." http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_036.htm 6 Then Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the persons of his household, his cattle and all his animals, and all his goods which he had gained in the land of Canaan, and went to a country away from the presence of his brother Jacob. NKJV Nephesh = soma = person If paul had somewhere uses 'somatikos" in reference to the resurrection you would have an open and shut case. But he NEVER used "somatikos" in reference to the resurrection. he used the word "soma" which was used as the equivalent for "nephesh" (soul) and is sometimes translated 'person." It is our PERSONS which will be transformed like Christ's glorious Person. Jesus does not have a body now. Paul clearly said that Jesus became a "life giving SPIRIT." However, Mike still errs in denying that Christ is still Man. He is indeed still Man but Man quintessentially and spiritually. Jack

Jack

I don't want to be rude, but I totally disagree with you. Jesus has the same body that was resurrected only now Glorified and changed. What would be the purpose of him telling Mary not to touch him because he had not yet been Glorified if his body was going to be glorified and then disposed of?

All the fullness of God dwells in Jesus in bodily form.

Strongs definition for soma is…

the body both of men or animals

a) a dead body or corpse

b) the living body

1) of animals

2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)

3) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body

a) so in the NT of the church

4) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

And fear not them which "kill the body (soma)", but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy "both soul and body (soma) in hell". Math 10:28

I think I will stick with Jesus words. If Jesus does not have his body then how can we be joined to him…Col 1:21 and 22.  

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 04 2011,13:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ No Keith! Jesus does not have a body in the way you define the word "body." Paul said that our "soma" will be transformed. He did not say that our "somatikos" will be transformed. The word "soma" is not the word for the physical body. It is the word for the PERSON. The word "somatikos" is the word for the physical body. John Calvin said that the word "soma" is not the body of flesh. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew "nephesh" (soul) with the word "soma" and our English translations use the word "person." http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_036.htm 6 Then Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the persons of his household, his cattle and all his animals, and all his goods which he had gained in the land of Canaan, and went to a country away from the presence of his brother Jacob. NKJV Nephesh = soma = person If paul had somewhere uses 'somatikos" in reference to the resurrection you would have an open and shut case. But he NEVER used "somatikos" in reference to the resurrection. he used the word "soma" which was used as the equivalent for "nephesh" (soul) and is sometimes translated 'person." It is our PERSONS which will be transformed like Christ's glorious Person. Jesus does not have a body now. Paul clearly said that Jesus became a "life giving SPIRIT." However, Mike still errs in denying that Christ is still Man. He is indeed still Man but Man quintessentially and spiritually. Jack

Kang jr

why you say that we believe that Jesus in heaven as a flesh body,

a body is a container that hold us but it is not us,our spirit mind with our deepest thoughts is us,

wen the flesh dies this spirit goes back to God who had given it but blank,now you have engraved your spirit in it ,and so it is become you.

at the resurrection some are in heaven and recieve a other ""body""so that they can acted in worship and serve there God,

the ones in resurrection to earth will receive a flesh body so that they could worship and serve their God.

only God can destroy the spirit (you)
this will be done at the second resurrection,the resurrection of judgement.

Pierre

[KangarooJack]

Keith,

First, your interpretation of Paul's statement that our 'body of humiliation' is the physical body and that it will be transformed cannot be true because the physical bodies of the Philippians were not transformed. They died and their bodies returned to dust.

Second, if there is so much as one example in scripture where 'soma' is used to denote the person you lose the argument. Note what Barnes said on 'soma' in Romans 12:1-2:

Quote

The bodies of animals were were offered in dacrifice. The apostle specifies their bodies particularly in reference to that fact. Still the entire animal was devoted; and Paul evidently meant here the same as to say, present yourselves, your entire PERSON, to the service of God; comp. 1 cor. 6:16; James 3:6 Barnes' Notes on Romans, p. 269

The 'body' which was resurrected was the soul, that is, the person. The souls of the saints arose from sheol and they received their bodies from heaven which according to Paul are not of this earth (2 Cor. 4:15-5:5).

"This I say then, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God."

Jack

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 04 2011,17:22)

Keith, First, your interpretation of Paul's statement that our 'body of humiliation' is the physical body and that it will be transformed cannot be true because the physical bodies of the Philippians were not transformed. They died and their bodies returned to dust. Second, if there is so much as one example in scripture where 'soma' is used to denote the person you lose the argument. Note what Barnes said on 'soma' in Romans 12:1-2: Quote The bodies of animals were were offered in dacrifice. The apostle specifies their bodies particularly in reference to that fact. Still the entire animal was devoted; and Paul evidently meant here the same as to say, present yourselves, your entire PERSON, to the service of God; comp. 1 cor. 6:16; James 3:6 Barnes' Notes on Romans, p. 269 The 'body' which was resurrected was the soul, that is, the person. The souls of the saints arose from sheol and they received their bodies from heaven which according to Paul are not of this earth (2 Cor. 4:15-5:5). "This I say then, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God." Jack

KJ

since wen can our body be in humiliation ?this is in a position statement ,not a form,

we are humiliated because of our knowledge of sin,our body as no mind, the flesh and the spirit are not the same.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14)

Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ

Hi Keith,

YES

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jack

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,18:22)

Keith, First, your interpretation of Paul's statement that our 'body of humiliation' is the physical body and that it will be transformed cannot be true because the physical bodies of the Philippians were not transformed. They died and their bodies returned to dust.

And that is the question isn't it Jack?

You believe the resurrection has passed and I don't.

If our bodies are not resurrected like Jesus body then there is no resurection. Paul warns against this.

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,18:22)

Second, if there is so much as one example in scripture where 'soma' is used to denote the person you lose the argument.

How so when all the evidence in the scriptures point to "soma" as speaking of the "flesh tent"?

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,18:22)

Note what Barnes said on 'soma' in Romans 12:1-2 Quote The bodies of animals were were offered in dacrifice. The apostle specifies their bodies particularly in reference to that fact. Still the entire animal was devoted; and Paul evidently meant here the same as to say, present yourselves, your entire PERSON, to the service of God; comp. 1 cor. 6:16; James 3:6 Barnes' Notes on Romans, p. 269 The 'body' which was resurrected was the soul, that is, the person. The souls of the saints arose from sheol and they received their bodies from heaven which according to Paul are not of this earth (2 Cor. 4:15-5:5).

I think you are misquoting Barnes. He says…

"Still the entire animal (the flesh and soul) was devoted; and Paul evidently meant here the same as to say, present yourselves (body, soul and Spirit), your entire PERSON (your entire being), to the service of God; comp. 1 cor. 6:16;" James 3:6

Come on Jack, "Soma" is found over 144 times and in almost all cases that I have seen it is refering to the "Physical flesh" of man and beast.

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,18:22)

"This I say then, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God."

The context of that scripture is "corruptable flesh" the "vile Body" that Paul said will be changed.

What would be the purpose of Jesus Body being raised (Destroy this Temple) if ours were not going to be raised?

In my opinion you are denying the resurrection when you say our bodys will not be raised.

Blessings Keith

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:20)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ Hi Keith, YES mike

Thanks Mike

Is it the same body that was resurrected and glorified?

If not then tell me what would be the purpose of Jesus body being raised and then glorified and then disposed of?

How can we be in the likeness of his resurrection if our bodies are not raised?

WJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2011,02:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ Hi Keith, YES mike Thanks Mike Is it the same body that was resurrected and glorified? If not then tell me what would be the purpose of Jesus body being raised and then glorified and then disposed of? How can we be in the likeness of his resurrection if our bodies are not raised? WJ

Keith,

No it is NOT the same body that was resurrected and glorified. Jesus was transformed to His SPIRITUAL body when He ascended to heaven.

Albert Barnes on Christ's glorified body:

Quote

That it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body. Gr., "the body of his glory;" that is, the body which he has in his glorified state. What change the body of the Redeemer underwent when he ascended into heaven, we are not informed,—nor do we know what is the nature, size, appearance, or form of the body which he now has. Barnes' Notes on Philippians, Baker Book House, page 207, Fifteenth Printing, February 1979

Charles Hodge on Christ's glorified body:

Quote

…it is enough to say, that no change took place at his resurrection in the nature of Christ's body. It was necessary in order to its satisfactory identification that it should remain as it was before. He therefore not only called upon his disciples to handle his risen body to satisfy themselves of its identity by probing the wounds in his hands and feet, but he also repeatedlly ate before them. He did not assume his PERMANENT pneumatic state until his ascension. 1 & 2 Corinthianspage 351

Hodge said that the word 'spiritual' in reference to the resurrection body literally means 'immaterial matter':

Quote

"There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." This is a vindication of the apparently contradictory expression, spiritual body, which, according to the letter, is tantamount to immaterial matter… page 348

Hodge said that our bodies as now constituted cannot inherit the kiongdom of God:

Quote

Flesh and blood means our bodies as now constituted, not sinful human nature. The phrase never has this latter sense…. He is speaking of the body and of its state after the resurrection. It is of the body as now constituted that he says, it cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven…. page 353

TO ALL:

Keith fails to realize that Paul began his discourse on the resurrection with the seed analogy. The outer body of the seed dissolves leaving only the "naked" grain to remain. It is from the naked grain that the new body comes. This is the 'body' that was resurrected in ad70.  The Greek word 'soma" is the word for the entire man. The septuagint used the word 'soma' to translate the Hebrew 'nephesh' which means 'soul.' In English the Hebrew 'nephesh' is translated by our word 'person.'

6 Then Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the PERSONS of his household, his cattle and all his animals, and all his goods which he had gained in the land of Canaan, and went to a country away from the presence of his brother Jacob.[/quote]

Okay, so the Hebrew 'nephesh' is translated with the Greek 'soma' in the LXX and by the English 'person.'

nephesh = soma = person

The SEVENTY Jewish scholars used the word 'soma' to translate 'nephesh' which means 'person.'

WILL KEITH PULL A MIKEBOLL AND DISCARD THE SEVENTY JEWISH SCHOLARS THAT JESUS AND THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES QUOTED?

KJ Jr.

Roo

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jack

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 04 2011,16:32)

WILL KEITH PULL A MIKEBOLL AND DISCARD THE SEVENTY JEWISH SCHOLARS THAT JESUS AND THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES QUOTED?

Look man. If you are going to be like this then I will not discuss this. Why would you even compare me with Mike?

You cannot prove that the writers of the NT did not mean in every case that "soma" is mentioned that it is not the phsical body.

I will take the words of Jesus and Paul in context any day that shows in most all of the cases (if not all) that "soma" appears Jesus and Paul are talking about the physical body.

In fact why don't you show me some scriptures where it isn't and I will show you tons of scriptures that do.

BTW Jack Barnes says…

"What change the body of the Redeemer underwent when he ascended into heaven, we are not informed,—nor do we know what is the nature, size, appearance, or form of the body which he now has."

What Body did he have that was changed? If it was a "NEW BODY" then why did it have to change?

If he is not talking about his "physical body" that was resurrected then what is it that changed?

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2011,09:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ Hi Keith, YES mike Thanks Mike Is it the same body that was resurrected and glorified? If not then tell me what would be the purpose of Jesus body being raised and then glorified and then disposed of? How can we be in the likeness of his resurrection if our bodies are not raised? WJ

WJ

could you show scriptures that shows that Christ was resurrected in the same body than he die with??

Pierre

[terraricca]

WJ

it is not the flesh that glorified the resurrection of Christ,because that would put him back where he started,

Pierre

[terraricca]

WJ
you say;How can we be in the likeness of his resurrection if our bodies are not raised?

if we are resurrected in heaven (144k) we do not need a flesh body because we would recieve an new one just as Christ recieve a new one.

if you are not of the heavenly call then a new flesh body will be given to you ,because it is not the flesh that make you but the spirit of you,that is why we have to become holy because God is Holy,and by this your new body will live forever.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2011,02:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ Hi Keith, YES mike Thanks Mike Is it the same body that was resurrected and glorified? If not then tell me what would be the purpose of Jesus body being raised and then glorified and then disposed of? How can we be in the likeness of his resurrection if our bodies are not raised? WJ

Hi Keith,

You and Jack and Barnes are all right, you know?  

YES, the body that was resurrected is the SAME body he died in.  And I agree that body was NOT "disposed of", because scripture clearly compares the "decay" that David's body experienced to the fact that Jesus' body would NOT see decay.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul speaks of those who will be raised to heaven.  Only those ones will have their raised bodies "transformed" into new glorious bodies like Jesus' body.

If Jesus was raised from the dead only to remain on earth forever, he would have just kept his flesh and blood body.  He didn't need it to be transformed into a spiritual body until he was ascending to heaven.  And those are who Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 15.

The meek who shall inherit the earth, on the other hand, will have no use for a spiritual body, so I imagine they will be raised from the dead and their original bodies will be made new and alive again.  But who knows about that one?

So Keith, Jack and Barnes are right that we haven't a clue about the shape or size or texture of Jesus' new glorified body.  We do know it is a spiritual body, and not a flesh and blood one anymore.

And Jack, Keith is right that the body Jesus now exists within is the same body he was raised in……..only that body has been transformed into a body that is fit to live in heaven rather than on earth.

Paul says the words, "as are the earthly, so are those of the earth, and as are the heavenly, so are THOSE of heaven".  He also says that if there is a natural body, then there is also a spiritual one.

1 Cor 15 teaches that all spirits have bodies.  Jesus is now a spirit, and so has a SPIRITUAL body, no longer a NATURAL flesh and blood body.

And either way you look at it, Jesus is not a MAN as in "human being" anymore.  He can be a "man" as in "PERSON", because he still is a person.  And he still has a body.  But he is no longer human.  For humans have flesh and blood……………WITHOUT EXCEPTION. And those two things CANNOT be in heaven, nor can any man see the face of God and live.

peace and love,
mike

ps  Keith, it is a COMPLIMENT to be compared to me!         Tell Jack "thank you".  

[terraricca]

Mike

in a the least one thing we do not agree with each other ,that is that to me Christ was not resurrected in the same body that he die in.

Pierre

ps ;there is always a first.

[mikeboll64]

Yeah, I know Pierre,

I remember telling Shimmer that I looked at this extra hard simply because you and Georg and Irene didn't agree with me, and I respect you guy's scriptural knowledge.

But I just cannot accept that Jesus would have LIED to his disciples by telling them he was NOT a spirit when he was.

But we don't have to rehash this over here just because Keith missed the boat in the other thread.  

peace and love,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2011,21:32)

Yeah, I know Pierre, I remember telling Shimmer that I looked at this extra hard simply because you and Georg and Irene didn't agree with me, and I respect you guy's scriptural knowledge. But I just cannot accept that Jesus would have LIED to his disciples by telling them he was NOT a spirit when he was. But we don't have to rehash this over here just because Keith missed the boat in the other thread.   peace and love, mike

Mike

I always will love any one that loves my God and my Christ.

yes today you have made the decision that to you it seems that Christ would have lied if he would have taken a other body for the purpose ??

the law also says it is unclean for a high priest to touch a dead corp,

he will be unclean for 7days but Jesus came back grab his dead corp what had no more glory ,because it die in the purpose of it,

did Christ not resurrected in GLORY greater than flesh??

the remark that Christ give his disciples is not to make his corp seen ,but to show all that he have said about himself was now completed,this is to strengthen there faith.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 04 2011,19:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2011,09:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ Hi Keith, YES mike Thanks Mike Is it the same body that was resurrected and glorified? If not then tell me what would be the purpose of Jesus body being raised and then glorified and then disposed of? How can we be in the likeness of his resurrection if our bodies are not raised? WJ WJ could you show scriptures that shows that Christ was resurrected in the same body than he die with?? Pierre

T

If his physical body did not raise then there was no resurrection.

Jesus saw the disciples afterward and ate with them.

He is now in that same "Glorified" body.

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 06 2011,09:21)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 04 2011,19:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2011,09:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,03:14) Mike I have one question for you. Does Jesus have a body? WJ Hi Keith, YES mike Thanks Mike Is it the same body that was resurrected and glorified? If not then tell me what would be the purpose of Jesus body being raised and then glorified and then disposed of? How can we be in the likeness of his resurrection if our bodies are not raised? WJ WJ could you show scriptures that shows that Christ was resurrected in the same body than he die with?? Pierre T If his physical body did not raise then there was no resurrection. Jesus saw the disciples afterward and ate with them. He is now in that same "Glorified" body. WJ

WJ

Christ could not become a glorified being as he was before in heaven,unless he die ,and what is dead stays dead the body is not Christ the spirit within was Christ ,the body is useless says Christ(flesh),

angels have made body s to meet men in the past,no problem.

you reject the sacrifice he did ,what is offered to God can not be taken back.

promises you make to God can not be undone read the law.

Christ as voluntary offered his live and body as a offering to God for our lives,wen live is removed from the flesh it is now a corps,Priest can not touch corps.the law.

there is more but for latter

Pierre

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