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T,
I have learned more of the nuts and bolts of Scripture but the basics remain the same.
I think I have changed on becoming a better and more patient listener and overall communicator as well.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2013,18:31) It is written that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came here in the flesh, was obedient to God, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. In case you missed it. He existed in the form of God.
Good post.I didn't see where anyone responded to it though………… or my post on page 12 either.
Oh well.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2013,06:31) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 17 2013,14:12) T8, No space means there is no body. This Jesus you testify of is a bodiless entity. Scripture teaches of another Jesus who has a flesh and bone body. A body that was changed from that he had after being made of a woman. A body that was still the Son of David.
It is written that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came here in the flesh, was obedient to God, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.In case you missed it. He existed in the form of God.
T8,Philippians does not say “he existed” it says “existing”. I agree he emptied himself as a container is emptied but what did he empty himself of? The outer form is the container, not the contents. He also took on himself the form of a servant which he did not have previously. At that time he was made in the likeness of man. This all occurred, as did the rest you write, before Paul wrote to the Philippians.
Are you claiming your Jesus did not have a heavenly body as heaven had not been created yet?
That is what it sounds like.
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 20 2013,02:42) Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,14:54) Marty. BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN:
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD **the King of Israel**, and **HIS REDEEMER** **the LORD of hosts**; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside *ME* there is no God.
THE KING OF ISRAEL,SAID: BESIDE *ME* THERE IS NO GOD.
HIS REDEEMER DID NOT SAY THAT.*THE KING* OF ISRAEL **AND HIS REDEEMER**.
YET HE SAID,BESIDE *ME* THERE IS NO GOD.
THIS IS CONFUSING TO THE MAJORITY.Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; **I am the first, I also am the last**.
JESUS WAS NOT EVEN BORN YET,WHEN HE SAID THIS.
Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, *from far*; The LORD hath called *ME* from the womb; from the *bowels of my mother* hath he made mention of my name.
HE WAS SPEAKING OF HIS COMING BIRTH,BEFORE
IT HAPPENED.HE WAS SPEAKING TO THE GENERATION FAR OFF.Isaiah 49:2 And he **hath made my mouth** like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath *he hid me*, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath *he hid me*;
HOW CAN THIS BE WHEN HE WAS *NOT* UNTILL HIS BIRTH? HOW CAN HE SAY ALL THOSE WORDS?
IT'S THE WORD OF GOD SPEAKING,BEFORE HE WAS MADE FLESH.
Psalms 33:6 By the *WORD* of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the ***breath of his mouth***. (BREATH/WORD).
John 1:3 All things were **made by him/WORD**; and without *him* was not any thing made that was made.
ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH.
*THE WORD* *AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH*.JESUS WAS THE *WORD* FROM EVERLASTING WITH GOD.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:Of course, this was before Jesus was born proving that he did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a sentient person.
You are trying to make it appear that it was Jesus who was saying the following in this scripture, but it is not:
Quote Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD **the King of Israel**, and **HIS REDEEMER** **the LORD of hosts**; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside *ME* there is no God. LORD in this scripture is “Jehovah”, and right, he states: “I am THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST; AND BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”.
What is it that you are not understanding here. Jesus said that he was not God, and he said that God was His Father. This is the OT prior to Jesus being sent into the world.
And the scripture states this:
Quote Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.Quote Hebrew 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Quote Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. But then we have these scriptures:
Quote 1 Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. And about worship, we do not worship Jesus as God, but we honor him as our Lord, this is what he said:
Quote 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.We have some agreement here.
—————————————————————-
except:QUOTE:
And about worship, we do not worship Jesus as God, but we honor him as our Lord, this is what he said:UNQUOTE:
—————————————————————–I HAVE TO DISAGREE,
BECAUSE OF THESE SCRIPTURES:
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith,
***And let all the angels of God worship him***.Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 *But unto the Son he saith*,
***Thy throne, O God***, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.BUT THEN ALSO HE SAID. THAT CHRIST WILL RULE IN HIS KINGDOM FOR A LIMITED TIME;BEFORE GOD WILL TAKE OVER.
WHEN THE WORD HAS DONE HIS WORK;GOD TAKES OVER.
FOR GOD MUST BE ALL IN ALL.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 20 2013,09:43) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 20 2013,02:42) Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,14:54) Marty. BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN:
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD **the King of Israel**, and **HIS REDEEMER** **the LORD of hosts**; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside *ME* there is no God.
THE KING OF ISRAEL,SAID: BESIDE *ME* THERE IS NO GOD.
HIS REDEEMER DID NOT SAY THAT.*THE KING* OF ISRAEL **AND HIS REDEEMER**.
YET HE SAID,BESIDE *ME* THERE IS NO GOD.
THIS IS CONFUSING TO THE MAJORITY.Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; **I am the first, I also am the last**.
JESUS WAS NOT EVEN BORN YET,WHEN HE SAID THIS.
Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, *from far*; The LORD hath called *ME* from the womb; from the *bowels of my mother* hath he made mention of my name.
HE WAS SPEAKING OF HIS COMING BIRTH,BEFORE
IT HAPPENED.HE WAS SPEAKING TO THE GENERATION FAR OFF.Isaiah 49:2 And he **hath made my mouth** like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath *he hid me*, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath *he hid me*;
HOW CAN THIS BE WHEN HE WAS *NOT* UNTILL HIS BIRTH? HOW CAN HE SAY ALL THOSE WORDS?
IT'S THE WORD OF GOD SPEAKING,BEFORE HE WAS MADE FLESH.
Psalms 33:6 By the *WORD* of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the ***breath of his mouth***. (BREATH/WORD).
John 1:3 All things were **made by him/WORD**; and without *him* was not any thing made that was made.
ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH.
*THE WORD* *AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH*.JESUS WAS THE *WORD* FROM EVERLASTING WITH GOD.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:Of course, this was before Jesus was born proving that he did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a sentient person.
You are trying to make it appear that it was Jesus who was saying the following in this scripture, but it is not:
Quote Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD **the King of Israel**, and **HIS REDEEMER** **the LORD of hosts**; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside *ME* there is no God. LORD in this scripture is “Jehovah”, and right, he states: “I am THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST; AND BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”.
What is it that you are not understanding here. Jesus said that he was not God, and he said that God was His Father. This is the OT prior to Jesus being sent into the world.
And the scripture states this:
Quote Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.Quote Hebrew 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Quote Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. But then we have these scriptures:
Quote 1 Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. And about worship, we do not worship Jesus as God, but we honor him as our Lord, this is what he said:
Quote 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.We have some agreement here.
—————————————————————-
except:QUOTE:
And about worship, we do not worship Jesus as God, but we honor him as our Lord, this is what he said:UNQUOTE:
—————————————————————–I HAVE TO DISAGREE,
BECAUSE OF THESE SCRIPTURES:
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith,
***And let all the angels of God worship him***.Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 *But unto the Son he saith*,
***Thy throne, O God***, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.BUT THEN ALSO HE SAID. THAT CHRIST WILL RULE IN HIS KINGDOM FOR A LIMITED TIME;BEFORE GOD WILL TAKE OVER.
WHEN THE WORD HAS DONE HIS WORK;GOD TAKES OVER.
FOR GOD MUST BE ALL IN ALL.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:This is what Jesus said:
Quote John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
The word worship can mean the reverence one has for the King, and Jesus is the King, but he is not God.
Quote Number 4352 Transliteration:
proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o}
Word Origin:
from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
TDNT:
6:758,948
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
worship 60
Total: 60
Definition:
1.to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2.among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3.in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication A.used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank a.to the Jewish high priests
b.to God
c.to Christ
d.to heavenly beings
e.to demonsTDNT – Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT – Theological Word Book of the Old TestamentLove in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2013,02:38) T, I have learned more of the nuts and bolts of Scripture but the basics remain the same.
I think I have changed on becoming a better and more patient listener and overall communicator as well.
Quote but the basics remain the same. that i have notice ;
foundation is the key ;to you you have none unless you believe that christ came from the father and so his not a man (by source of his live ,but the son of God that was with God in the beginning )
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,16:10) T8, Philippians does not say “he existed” it says “existing”.
“WAS existing” is clearly implied from the past tense form of the statement as a whole.And to say “he was existing in the form of God” is identical to saying “he existed in the form of God”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,08:33) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2013,18:31) It is written that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came here in the flesh, was obedient to God, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. In case you missed it. He existed in the form of God.
Good post.I didn't see where anyone responded to it though………… or my post on page 12 either.
Oh well.
Hi t8 and Mike:I find that only the translates this “who existed”. All other translations translate this similar to the YLT which states:
Quote
Phl 2:5
For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
Phl 2:6
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
Phl 2:7
but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
Phl 2:8
and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death — death even of a cross,
Phl 2:9
wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name,Quote Number 5225 Transliteration:
huparcho {hoop-ar'-kho}
Word Origin:
from 5259 and 756
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
be 42, have 2, live 1, after 1, not tr 2
Total: 48
Definition:
1.to begin below, to make a beginning A.to begin
2.to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand
3.to beTDNT – Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT – Theological Word Book of the Old TestamentAnd so, where is it written the way that you have stated this t8?
And certainly, it does not say “and having pre-existed in the form of God”, and for the Nth time through these scriptures the Apostle Paul is teaching the church about humility of mind using Jesus Christ as the example, and for the Nth time, he was Jesus Christ during his ministry on earth.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Mike, although running as fast as he could, was unable to win the race.
Do you see the PRESENT tense word “running”?
Do you see that since the sentence AS A WHOLE is a PAST tense statement, “Mike WAS running as fast as he could” is implied?
Now, compare that with the entire statement of Phil 2:6-8, for it is all one big sentence.
Are all the other things Paul wrote about in that sentence PAST TENSE events? Yes. So since the statement AS A WHOLE is a PAST TENSE statement, it means that “WAS existing” is implied in verse 6.
And “he WAS existing” means the same exact thing as “he existed“.
Agreed?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,12:26) Marty, Mike, although running as fast as he could, was unable to win the race.
Do you see the PRESENT tense word “running”?
Do you see that since the sentence AS A WHOLE is a PAST tense statement, “Mike WAS running as fast as he could” is implied?
Now, compare that with the entire statement of Phil 2:6-8, for it is all one big sentence.
Are all the other things Paul wrote about in that sentence PAST TENSE events? Yes. So since the statement AS A WHOLE is a PAST TENSE statement, it means that “WAS existing” is implied in verse 6.
And “he WAS existing” means the same exact thing as “he existed“.
Agreed?
Mike:The Apostle Paul was looking back to the time of Jesus' ministry on the earth.
Love in Christ,
MartyAnd to t8's point relative to the following scripture in another restricted thread:
Quote John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
No man up to this point had seen or understood God's true character, but this man who is the Only Begotten Son, he has seen Him, and has made him manifest to humanity through his life obedience to the Father's Word. And so, he says;
Quote John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 20 2013,10:12) Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 20 2013,09:43) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 20 2013,02:42) Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,14:54) Marty. BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN:
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD **the King of Israel**, and **HIS REDEEMER** **the LORD of hosts**; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside *ME* there is no God.
THE KING OF ISRAEL,SAID: BESIDE *ME* THERE IS NO GOD.
HIS REDEEMER DID NOT SAY THAT.*THE KING* OF ISRAEL **AND HIS REDEEMER**.
YET HE SAID,BESIDE *ME* THERE IS NO GOD.
THIS IS CONFUSING TO THE MAJORITY.Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; **I am the first, I also am the last**.
JESUS WAS NOT EVEN BORN YET,WHEN HE SAID THIS.
Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, *from far*; The LORD hath called *ME* from the womb; from the *bowels of my mother* hath he made mention of my name.
HE WAS SPEAKING OF HIS COMING BIRTH,BEFORE
IT HAPPENED.HE WAS SPEAKING TO THE GENERATION FAR OFF.Isaiah 49:2 And he **hath made my mouth** like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath *he hid me*, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath *he hid me*;
HOW CAN THIS BE WHEN HE WAS *NOT* UNTILL HIS BIRTH? HOW CAN HE SAY ALL THOSE WORDS?
IT'S THE WORD OF GOD SPEAKING,BEFORE HE WAS MADE FLESH.
Psalms 33:6 By the *WORD* of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the ***breath of his mouth***. (BREATH/WORD).
John 1:3 All things were **made by him/WORD**; and without *him* was not any thing made that was made.
ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH.
*THE WORD* *AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH*.JESUS WAS THE *WORD* FROM EVERLASTING WITH GOD.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:Of course, this was before Jesus was born proving that he did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a sentient person.
You are trying to make it appear that it was Jesus who was saying the following in this scripture, but it is not:
Quote Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD **the King of Israel**, and **HIS REDEEMER** **the LORD of hosts**; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside *ME* there is no God. LORD in this scripture is “Jehovah”, and right, he states: “I am THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST; AND BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”.
What is it that you are not understanding here. Jesus said that he was not God, and he said that God was His Father. This is the OT prior to Jesus being sent into the world.
And the scripture states this:
Quote Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.Quote Hebrew 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Quote Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. But then we have these scriptures:
Quote 1 Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. And about worship, we do not worship Jesus as God, but we honor him as our Lord, this is what he said:
Quote 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.We have some agreement here.
—————————————————————-
except:QUOTE:
And about worship, we do not worship Jesus as God, but we honor him as our Lord, this is what he said:UNQUOTE:
—————————————————————–I HAVE TO DISAGREE,
BECAUSE OF THESE SCRIPTURES:
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith,
***And let all the angels of God worship him***.Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 *But unto the Son he saith*,
***Thy throne, O God***, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.BUT THEN ALSO HE SAID. THAT CHRIST WILL RULE IN HIS KINGDOM FOR A LIMITED TIME;BEFORE GOD WILL TAKE OVER.
WHEN THE WORD HAS DONE HIS WORK;GOD TAKES OVER.
FOR GOD MUST BE ALL IN ALL.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:This is what Jesus said:
Quote John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
The word worship can mean the reverence one has for the King, and Jesus
is the King, but he is not God.Quote Number 4352 Transliteration:
proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o}
Word Origin:
from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
TDNT:
6:758,948
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
worship 60
Total: 60
Definition:
1.to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2.among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3.in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication A.used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank a.to the Jewish high priests
b.to God
c.to Christ
d.to heavenly beings
e.to demonsTDNT – Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT – Theological Word Book of the Old TestamentLove in Christ,
Marty
Marty.Quote
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD **the King of Israel**, and **HIS REDEEMER** **the LORD of hosts**; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside *ME* there is no God.QUOTE:
LORD in this scripture is “Jehovah”, and right, he states: “I am THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST; AND BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”.UNQUOTE.If that is the case; then who is Jehovah's redeemer?
1.We have the Lord: the king of israel.
2.The lord of HOST HIS redeemer.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 03 2013,05:07) It is written: Matthew 4:4
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Some believe:
Matthew 4:4
An interpretation of the Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by the preexistent Christ.
Is it truth or tradition?
Why?
Kerwin.We need to watch out for those new translations.
Satan has gone into every nook and cranny
to distort the words in the bible.The pre-exsistent Christ? Was the Word of God.(not yet born as Christ).
The Words comes out of God's mouth.
Every Word that prceeded out of God's mouth is
Jesus teachings,of which He also is the Word personally.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,06:19) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,16:10) T8, Philippians does not say “he existed” it says “existing”.
“WAS existing” is clearly implied from the past tense form of the statement as a whole.And to say “he was existing in the form of God” is identical to saying “he existed in the form of God”.
Mike,I believe we are covering this elsewhere.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 20 2013,06:02) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2013,02:38) T, I have learned more of the nuts and bolts of Scripture but the basics remain the same.
I think I have changed on becoming a better and more patient listener and overall communicator as well.
Quote but the basics remain the same. that i have notice ;
foundation is the key ;to you you have none unless you believe that christ came from the father and so his not a man (by source of his live ,but the son of God that was with God in the beginning )
T,I believe that Jesus, and those that persevere in there belief in him come from above while those that reject him come from this world.
I believe Jesus is the Christ, the gift from heaven.
I believe Jesus shares in our humanity.
I believe God has provided a way for us to become righteous and holy as he is and that is to be out goal to do so by faith.
Hi Wakeup:
“His(Israel's) redeemer” in Isaiah 44:6 refers back to Jehovah, Himself, Israel's redeemer. (His redeemer, Jehovah, Israel's redeemer.)
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2013,16:43) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 20 2013,06:02) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2013,02:38) T, I have learned more of the nuts and bolts of Scripture but the basics remain the same.
I think I have changed on becoming a better and more patient listener and overall communicator as well.
Quote but the basics remain the same. that i have notice ;
foundation is the key ;to you you have none unless you believe that christ came from the father and so his not a man (by source of his live ,but the son of God that was with God in the beginning )
T,I believe that Jesus, and those that persevere in there belief in him come from above while those that reject him come from this world.
I believe Jesus is the Christ, the gift from heaven.
I believe Jesus shares in our humanity.
I believe God has provided a way for us to become righteous and holy as he is and that is to be out goal to do so by faith.
hi kerwinyou going to need more than nuts and bolds on this one ;
you say ;I BELIEVE ” THAT Jesus is the Christ”
BUT I TELL YOU ,YOU DO NOT ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ,ONLY ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING ;LET SEE IF I AM RIGHT
DO YOU KNOW WHO CHRIST IS ?
DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE CAME FROM ?
DO YOU KNOW WHY AND WHEN HE WAS FORECAST TO COME
DO YOU KNOW WHO IS HIS FATHER ?
DO YOU KNOW WHO IS HIS GOD ?
DO YOU KNOW WHO SEND HIM ?
DO YOU KNOW IF HE IS JUST SOME THING IN THE AIR OR HIS HE A REAL BEING ?
DO YOU KNOW WHY DID HE REALLY CAME TO EARTH ?
DO YOU KNOW WHY HE COULD NOT COME FROM THE EARTH
DO YOU KNOW WHY IT TOOK THE POWERS OF GOD HIS FATHER TO BRING HIM DOWN ?
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE ALL SCRIPTURES AND THE WORDS OF CHRIST
DO YOU BELIEVE THE TESTIMONY OF HIS APOSTLES AS IT IS WRITTEN ?
DO YOU KNOW WHY HE IS CALLED “THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ” EVEN THAT WE KNOW WE ALL ARE SONS OF GOD ?
DO YOU KNOW WHY GOD HIS FATHER AS A SON ?
DO YOU KNOW THE PURPOSE OF HIS SACRIFICE ?
DO YOU KNOW THE PURPOSE OF HIS BIRTH IN THIS WORLD
DO YOU KNOW THE PURPOSE OF HIS MINISTRY
DO YOU KNOW THE REASONS FOR THE MIRACLES
DO YOU KNOW WHY HE WAS A FIGURE SO COMMON THAT IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO RECOGNIZING HIM AMONG OTHER FOLKS ,?
DO YOU KNOW ALL THE DIFFERENT STEPS HE TOOK DURING HIS MINISTRY AND WHAT THEY MEAN ?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT ARE THE THINGS HE LOVED ?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT ARE THE THINGS HE HATE ?
DO YOU KNOW HIS FAVORED FOOD ?
DO YOU KNOW WHY HE IS LOVED BY HIS FATHER ?
WHAT DO YOU REALLY KNOW ABOUT HIS TEACHINGS ?
DO YOU KNOW WHY HE HIS THE CHRIST ?
DO YOU KNOW IF CHRIST SHARED HIS HEAVENLY PART WITH US INSTEAD OF WE SHARING OUR HUMANITY WITH HIM ?
DO YOU KNOW THAT HE EXISTED PRIOR TO HIS COMING TO EARTH ?
HIS YOUR CHRIST THE SAME THAN THE ONE SPOKEN OF IN THE SCRIPTURES ?UNLESS YOU CAN ANSWER ALL THOSE QUESTIONS HOW CAN ANYONE SAY THAT HE BELIEVES IN CHRIST ;
IT WOULD BE THE SAME AS SAYING I BELIEVE IN THIS STRANGER Quote (942767 @ Sep. 19 2013,19:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,12:26)
Are all the other things Paul wrote about in that sentence PAST TENSE events? Yes. So since the statement AS A WHOLE is a PAST TENSE statement, it means that “WAS existing” is implied in verse 6.And “he WAS existing” means the same exact thing as “he existed“.
Agreed?
Mike:The Apostle Paul was looking back to the time of Jesus' ministry on the earth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I disagree with that, Marty. But it seems that you, Kerwin, t8, and I are all in agreement that “was existing”, or “existed”, is definitely implied in verse 6 – since the statement as a whole was describing past tense events.And since you, Kerwin, and the rest of the non-preexisters all believe that Paul was “looking back to the time of Jesus' ministry on the earth”, you guys shouldn't ever point out to us that “it doesn't say existed” – because even you guys understand that Paul was talking about PAST TENSE events, right?
I only mention this because whenever any of us use Phil 2 as a pre-existent proof, you guys don't really ever argue the validity of the point we're making, but instead always defer to the “it says existing – not existed” evasion. By doing that, you try to avoid addressing the actual point of Phil 2, which is that Jesus was existing in the form of God, but emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being.
So from now on, since ALL of us believe “was existing” is implied from the past tense form of the statement as a whole, we should never again have to have our Phil 2 arguments avoided by “it says existing – not existed”, right?
Good. That means we can move forward to the meat of Phil 2, instead of continually getting stalled by that “existing/existed” dodge.
peace,
mikeQuote (942767 @ Sep. 19 2013,20:19) And to t8's point relative to the following scripture in another restricted thread: Quote
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.No man up to this point had seen or understood God's true character, but this man who is the Only Begotten Son, he has seen Him, and has made him manifest to humanity through his life obedience to the Father's Word.
Another dodge, if you ask me.The POINT of t8's comment was that Jesus was the only human being to ever have “seen God”. And since he couldn't have seen God with his human eyes, and he said he had already seen God before he ascended to heaven, it makes you wonder when exactly he did see God.
Perhaps in heaven before he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?
Of course that has to be it.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2013,04:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,06:19) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,16:10) T8, Philippians does not say “he existed” it says “existing”.
“WAS existing” is clearly implied from the past tense form of the statement as a whole.And to say “he was existing in the form of God” is identical to saying “he existed in the form of God”.
Mike,I believe we are covering this elsewhere.
I know! Which was why I was stunned to see you use the same old diversion tactic against t8 in this thread when you've already agreed with me in the other thread that “was existing/existed” is implied from the past tense form of the statement as a whole.
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