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Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 24 2014,23:32) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2014,13:31) J42 THIS IS NOT A DANCE
What are you talking about Pierre,
I've been dancing with you for two years now!
…..and you have not been leading the way either,
but only stepping on my toes
I agree with you Journey42When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide
Where I stop and I turn and I go for a ride
Till I get to the bottom and I see you again.Do, don't you want me to love you
I'm coming down fast but I'm miles above you
Tell me, tell me, tell me, come on tell me the answer
You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.Helter skelter, helter skelter
Helter skelter.Will you, won't you want me to make you
I'm coming down fast but don't let me break you
Tell me, tell me, tell me the answer
You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.Look out
Helter skelter, helter skelter
Helter skelter.
Look out 'cause here she comes.When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide
Where I stop and I turn and I go for a ride
Till I get to the bottom and I see you again.Well do you, don't you want me to love you
I'm coming down fast but don't let me break you
Tell me, tell me, tell me the answer
You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.Look out
Helter skelter, helter skelter
Helter skelter.Look out helter skelter
She's coming down fast.
Yes she is.
Yes she isQuote (journey42 @ Jan. 23 2014,20:24) Ok. We'll keep dancing for a little while longer.
I'm sure I won't get a kiss at the end of the dance!
At this rate, you're more likely to get a punch in the nose than a kiss! 
journey, you are a spunky one, and I enjoy our discussions.
I'll get your and Wakeup's posts soon.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 24 2014,18:32) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2014,13:31) J42 THIS IS NOT A DANCE
What are you talking about Pierre,
I've been dancing with you for two years now!
…..and you have not been leading the way either,
but only stepping on my toes
J42THIS COULD BE TRUE ;I ALWAYS WANDER WHAT IT WAS THAT THING THAT STACK TO MY FOOT ,AND DID NOT FOLLOWED THE MUSIC ,OFF TUNE MOST OF THE TIME FOR TWO YEARS YOU SAY ,
I DID NOT KNOW MY PATIENTS WAS THAT GOOD ,
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2014,08:32) J42 THIS COULD BE TRUE ;I ALWAYS WANDER WHAT IT WAS THAT THING THAT STACK TO MY FOOT ,AND DID NOT FOLLOWED THE MUSIC ,OFF TUNE MOST OF THE TIME FOR TWO YEARS YOU SAY ,
I DID NOT KNOW MY PATIENTS WAS THAT GOOD ,
PierreVery funny.
But that's because you were doing the Greek dance, and between breaks you would start smashing plates.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2014,08:04) I'll get your and Wakeup's posts soon.
Ok MikeI've got all the time in the world for the next few days only.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 25 2014,08:03) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2014,08:32) J42 THIS COULD BE TRUE ;I ALWAYS WANDER WHAT IT WAS THAT THING THAT STACK TO MY FOOT ,AND DID NOT FOLLOWED THE MUSIC ,OFF TUNE MOST OF THE TIME FOR TWO YEARS YOU SAY ,
I DID NOT KNOW MY PATIENTS WAS THAT GOOD ,
PierreVery funny.
But that's because you were doing the Greek dance, and between breaks you would start smashing plates.
yeah again now you going to start changing the dancing style as wellyou are unstable
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2014,13:35) Quote yeah again now you going to start changing the dancing style as well you are unstable
One never learn's just one dance. That's like staying in grade 1.
Maybe the Hora is more to your liking?Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 25 2014,12:59) Ed
Mike doesn't realize I'm a trained fighter and was given a sword
Yes, I know! …there is spiritual truth to that song, see Link… (Link)Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 25 2014,14:05) Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 25 2014,12:59) Ed
Mike doesn't realize I'm a trained fighter and was given a sword
Yes, I know! …there is spiritual truth to that song, see Link… (Link)
EDJ.A spititual song of a non believer?
wakeup.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 25 2014,08:39) terraricca,Jan. wrote:[/quote]
Quote yeah again now you going to start changing the dancing style as well you are unstable
One never learn's just one dance. That's like staying in grade 1.
Maybe the Hora is more to your liking?
YEAH THAT IS THE BEST WAY OF SHOWING YOU ARE'N GOOD IN ANY OF THEMQuote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2014,21:36) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 25 2014,14:05) Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 25 2014,12:59) Ed
Mike doesn't realize I'm a trained fighter and was given a sword
Yes, I know! …there is spiritual truth to that song, see Link… (Link)
EDJ.A spititual song of a non believer?
wakeup.
Wakeup,I think Ed quoted the wrong post from journey. He meant to comment on her post about Helter Skelter being a funny song.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 24 2014,20:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2014,08:04) I'll get your and Wakeup's posts soon.
Ok MikeI've got all the time in the world for the next few days only.
Okay,Let's go back a little bit. Your own God-given common sense told you that Jesus, while on earth, was a creation and a son of God.
That same common sense told you that it would be ludicrous to WORSHIP a creation who was not actually God Almighty Himself.
But then you read the KJV's translation, where they teach that this creation and son of God WAS “worshipped” while he was just a man on earth, and so you threw all that God-given common sense right out the window, and sided with them.
I want to know why. Because it sounds like a case of blind guides leading the blind if you ask me.
Why would you forget that we are not to worship the creation – just because the KJV people were Trinitarians who wanted us to believe that Jesus was indeed God Almighty Himself on earth?
A few mistranslated words from the KJV have totally erased all that God-given common sense you were following.
mikeboll64,Jan. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Okay, Let's go back a little bit. Your own God-given common sense told you that Jesus, while on earth, was a creation and a son of God.
Yes.Quote That same common sense told you that it would be ludicrous to WORSHIP a creation who was not actually God Almighty Himself.
Yes I did say that.Quote But then you read the KJV's translation, where they teach that this creation and son of God WAS “worshipped” while he was just a man on earth, and so you threw all that God-given common sense right out the window, and sided with them.
Not really, because that “creation” Jesus Christ, was not just any creation like you and I, but the Son of God.
That “creation” Jesus Christ, was the “Word of God” and created us also.
So he was not just any creation, and imperfect like us, full of sin,
but perfect and blameless, and sent by God, the Word of God made flesh.
He is EQUAL to GOD and God has given him this authority.
How can we put him on the same level as you and I?. He was sent by God for the remission of sins and holds the keys to death and hell. He is still the Word of God, whether in the spirit or the flesh, but the same Word who God created everything through, and for.Quote I want to know why. Because it sounds like a case of blind guides leading the blind if you ask me.
I want to know why you are making this a big big deal, just to prove your JW bible is true? You will not find the truth in there, but a watered down version. You will keep seeking in there and you will never find, because you want to be in bondage to Egypt, just like the Hebrews were. They have returned there too spiritually, and the world join them spiritually, and innocently also when they celebrate their holidays, and innocently give obeisance to those egyptian gods without even knowing it, and you are doing the same through your translated minority fragments, which have plagiarised the Word of God. An imposter. A counterfeit which has come through the back door whom the WORLD ENDORSES.Quote Why would you forget that we are not to worship the creation – just because the KJV people were Trinitarians who wanted us to believe that Jesus was indeed God Almighty Himself on earth?
I am flogging a dead horse here. I have answered this already many times, and you have not addressed. So you need to address now and explain to me that if the bible was not available to the gentiles, and there was only the Catholic and the Church of England around, who happen to believe the same thing know about any doctrinal debates like the trinity? It was the Jews who did not accept this verse;
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Still cannot comprehend? That there is a Father, a Son, and the Holy Ghost (spirit of truth), and all three are one?
1 John 5:17 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Still think this is about the trinity?
Not spiritually inquisitive one bit?
One is speaking of heaven, and one of the earth.
In earth, we preach The Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth). These three work together. Jesus prayed to his Father, so he can't be him can he?
Jesus was sent to preach his Father's will, and we cannot understand his will, unless we have the HOLY SPIRIT. This is the helper. ALL THREE GO TOGETHER. WITHOUT ONE OF THESE MENTIONED, WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT FORMULA, AND WILL GO OFF COURSE, MAYBE TO ANOTHER GOD, and will fall of that narrow path. It is declared now, must accept the Son also, to get to God, and must have the spirit of truth to get there.1 John 5:17 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And it is revealed here to us that are spiritually seeking, that the Son on earth is actually the same WORD in heaven. They are the same. BINGO, We have connected the dots, and praise the Lord that he showed us how to work out that John 1:1 as confusing as it seemed at first is now backed up and true, and Jesus was that WORD in the beginning that was with God, but whilst he was here, he was the SON in the flesh.
What is trinitarian about that? Nothing but a misunderstanding by those who have been indoctrinated by religion and who also believe that being born again has nothing to do with the resurrection of the saints.Quote A few mistranslated words from the KJV have totally erased all that God-given common sense you were following.
If I was learned in theology, and worldly, I could give you the answer you are yearning for, and you might understand, but I am simple and speak spiritual things to you, and this is what you are having difficulty understanding.Your Alexandrian fragments are in bondage still. They are counterfeit.
And you have not addressed all my previous scriptures I gave and my answers to you, but have dodged them.
So please when you reply, I need to put you on the stand now, and have you explain the scripture about Jesus being equal to God. Do you understand this?Thank you brother.
Mikeb.
Quote
Let's go back a little bit. Your own God-given common sense told you that Jesus, while on earth, was a creation and a son of God.
That same common sense told you that it would be ludicrous to WORSHIP a creation who was not actually God Almighty Himself.WHY WOULD IT BE LUDICROUS TO WORSHIP THE WORD OF GOD IN THE FLESH? IF YOU KNOW HE IS? THEY KNEW.
HE IS STILL THE WORD OF GOD,NO MATTER IN WHAT FORM.
HIS FLESH TEMPLE WAS MADE FOR HIM.WE ARE CREATURES WITH NO GOD IN US.THEREFORE NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED.WE ALSO ARE NOT THE WORD OF GOD BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.WE ARE UNHOLY.JESUS IS HOLY.
THE *IMAGE* OF HIS FATHER,WHICH IS GOD.THEY UNDERSTOOD ALL THIS.[QUOTE[
But then you read the KJV's translation, where they teach that this creation and son of God WAS “worshipped” while he was just a man on earth, and so you threw all that God-given common sense right out the window, and sided with them.NOT SO: *IF YOU CAN SEE* THAT HE IS STILL THE WORD OF GOD. IN A BODY MADE OF FLESH. IT IS THE FLESH THAT WAS MADE.THE INSIDE IS STILL ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD.
THE WORD OF GOD IN *ANY FORM*,IS STILL THE WORD OF GOD.Quote
I want to know why. Because it sounds like a case of blind guides leading the blind if you ask me.
Why would you forget that we are not to worship the creation – just because the KJV people were Trinitarians who wanted us to believe that Jesus was indeed God Almighty Himself on earth?NO: IT IS BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT SEE DEEP ENOUGH.
YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE SURFACE.YOU ARE A SURFACE
DWELLER. YOU HAVE NOT GONE INTO THE DEEPTHINGS OF GOD WHERE THE GOLD IS DEPOSITED/STORED.Quote
A few mistranslated words from the KJV have totally erased all that God-given common sense you were following.THERE IS NO CONTRADICTIONS, *IF* YOU UNDERSTAND.
YOU SEE MANY CONTRADICTIONS IN THE KJV *IF*
YOU HAVE NO FULL UNDERSTANDING.wakeup.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 25 2014,20:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2014,04:55) Your own God-given common sense told you that Jesus, while on earth, was a creation and a son of God.
Yes.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 25 2014,20:38)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2014,04:55) That same common sense told you that it would be ludicrous to WORSHIP a creation who was not actually God Almighty Himself.
Yes I did say that.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 25 2014,20:38)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2014,04:55) But then you read the KJV's translation, where they teach that this creation and son of God WAS “worshipped” while he was just a man on earth, and so you threw all that God-given common sense right out the window, and sided with them.
Not really, because that “creation” Jesus Christ, was not just any creation like you and I, but the Son of God.SCREEEEECH! (sound of car stopping fast
)Stop the movie right there, journey, because something is amiss. There are plot twists happening here that cannot just be “glossed over” with a bunch of unrelated words and scriptures.
Here is what has happened so far in this discussion:
1. You were convinced that the MAN Jesus was a CREATION of God.
2. You were convinced that the MAN Jesus was NOT God Almighty Himself.
3. You were convinced that we are NOT to worship the creation.
4. And you were convinced that none of the disciples ever “worshiped” Jesus on earth – because they all knew he wasn't God Almighty Himself.
BUT………… then I showed you scriptures where the KJV has the disciples and other people worshipping the MAN Jesus Christ BEFORE he was exalted back to being God, or whatever it is you believe about that.
And now you are bending over backwards, trying to maintain your original claims, and at the same time stand firm with the KJV “worship” translation. But you CAN'T, journey. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have your cake and eat it too in this case.
Either Jesus WAS God Almighty when he was a MAN on earth – or he WASN'T. Either he WAS a creation while he was on earth – or he WASN'T. Either he WAS the servant and prophet OF God while he was on earth – or he WASN'T.
And most importantly, either we ARE allowed to worship creations, men, and servants OF God – or we AREN'T.
So I want you to clarify the statements I quoted above:
Do you conclude that we AREN'T allowed to worship men, creations, and servants OF God………. UNLESS that man, creation, and servant OF God happens to be Jesus Christ? And if he is Jesus Christ, all that other stuff is no longer applicable?
Is THAT your final answer on the subject?
As for the rest of your post, you've once again made many inaccurate claims. For example, Jesus is never said in any scripture to have “created” ANYTHING AT ALL. Nor is there any scripture that says “the Word” created anything at all.
And it's not that I'm trying to “prove my JW Bible is true”, journey. Have you forgotten that even your precious KJV translates the act of bowing down before another as “doing obeisance” in cases where the one bowed before is NOT God Almighty Himself? So if THEY have the common sense to translate it correctly in OTHER cases where the one receiving the homage is NOT God – why do you suppose they DON'T translate as “doing obeisance” when the one receiving the homage is the MAN, CREATION, and SERVANT OF God, Jesus Christ?
I mean, how can you FAULT the NWT for doing EXACTLY what the KJV does many times in the OT? Think it out, journey. YOU are the one who TWICE pointed out to me that the one receiving the obeisance was “not God” – and so the KJV was right in translating it as “did obeisance”.
And YOU are the one who pointed out to me that Jesus was “not God” on earth, right? So why then DIDN'T the KJV correctly translate as “did obeisance” in the case of the MAN Jesus – like they did the other times the one receiving the homage was “not God”?
Are you seeing it yet? You applauded the KJV because they had “did obeisance” in cases that didn't refer to God Himself. And you agree that Jesus was NOT God Himself on earth. Yet here you are, telling me that I won't “find the truth” in the “watered down” NWT, because it is “in bondage to Egypt”.
And all the NWT did was to do the SAME EXACT THING the KJV did many times in the OT: translate as “did obeisance” in cases that don't refer to God Almighty Himself.
How can one be RIGHT, and the other WRONG – for doing the SAME EXACT THING?
Can't you see how your bias FOR the KJV, and AGAINST the NWT are driving you to not only come to irrational conclusions, but to also go AGAINST the very sensible and logical things that you yourself understood a week ago?
As for the scriptures, questions, and accusations against my spiritual enlightenment that comprised the rest of your post – none of it has one single thing to do with the one simple question we are dealing with right now……. so we can get to those things later.
For right now, all we're trying to find out is:
1. Was Jesus Christ actually God Almighty Himself when he was on earth? YES or NO?
2. And if “NO”, then was the act of bowing down before him more likely an act of “honoring man”, or an act of “worshipping God”?
Before you answer, let me remind you of your own words from page 68:
Quote Jesus Christ was not God Almighty himself. They knew he was the Son of God. And from page 70:
Quote Mike, the point you were m
aking is that the word obeisance was used so many times in the KJV.
I agreed, but in the proof you gave me, I said not one of those verses is speaking of worshipping God, but is referring to honouring man.So when the disciples and other people bowed before the created man Jesus Christ, and they knew he was not God Almighty Himself, were they “worshipping God”? Or “honoring man”?
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 25 2014,21:08) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Why would you forget that we are not to worship the creation – just because the KJV people were Trinitarians who wanted us to believe that Jesus was indeed God Almighty Himself on earth? NO: IT IS BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT SEE DEEP ENOUGH.
YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE SURFACE.YOU ARE A SURFACE
DWELLER. YOU HAVE NOT GONE INTO THE DEEPTHINGS OF GOD WHERE THE GOLD IS DEPOSITED/STORED.
I've found these things on the surface, Wakeup:1. We are to worship and serve as God ONLY Jehovah, the Most High God.
2. We are not to worship the creations.
3. We are not to worship men, anything in the form of a man, or anything with a known form at all – since no form was seen on Mount Horeb.
4. Jesus was NOT God Almighty on earth, but a creation of God Almighty who was a servant OF God Almighty.
5. The disciples all knew Jesus was not actually God – but the Son, prophet and priest OF God.
6. Jesus himself worshipped the God of the Jews when he was on earth.
7. And Jesus himself told us to worship only Jehovah, who is both his God and our God.
So those are just a few of the things I've discovered as a “surface dweller”. Would have me go against these commands from the two most powerful beings in existence – simply because you have “shamed me” by saying I can't see deep enough?
Wakeup, since your “deep things” are contradicting those easy-to-understand “surface things” – perhaps you have been digging in the wrong pit.
Quote SCREEEEECH! (sound of car stopping fast )Or the sound of, the screeching owl!
Quote Stop the movie right there, journey, because something is amiss. There are plot twists happening here that cannot just be “glossed over” with a bunch of unrelated words and scriptures.
Mike,They are just answers to your questions. I get tired answering the same thing over and over.
Quote Here is what has happened so far in this discussion:
I'm all ears.Quote 1. You were convinced that the MAN Jesus was a CREATION of God.
Yes, and the WORD was made FLESH.Quote 2. You were convinced that the MAN Jesus was NOT God Almighty Himself.
Yes, when made flesh, he became The Son of God.Quote 3. You were convinced that we are NOT to worship the creation.
I initially said this in relation to ANGELS, as some of you here claim that angels are gods. I said they were creatures.Quote 4. And you were convinced that none of the disciples ever “worshiped” Jesus on earth – because they all knew he wasn't God Almighty Himself.
I already told you, if one call out to Jesus then he has not sinned. This would be a type of worship I suppose, but when you brought those scriptures to my attention, about them actually getting down on their knees and worshiping Jesus, you confirmed what I had already known in my spirit, but forgot those scriptures, because according to my memory it just didn't STAND OUT FOR ME, at the time, I have never concentrated on that particular thing, because I have not come to this debate until now. This is how we keep learning Mike. When subjects come up.Quote BUT………… then I showed you scriptures where the KJV has the disciples and other people worshipping the MAN Jesus Christ BEFORE he was exalted back to being God, or whatever it is you believe about that.
Yes, and I humbly thanked you for that and told you that I had missed it….so your point is?Quote And now you are bending over backwards, trying to maintain your original claims, and at the same time stand firm with the KJV “worship” translation. But you CAN'T, journey. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have your cake and eat it too in this case. I am standing firm with my KJV translation, and state it is the true Word of God.[/quote]
All that to say this?Quote Either Jesus WAS God Almighty when he was a MAN on earth – or he WASN'T. Either he WAS a creation while he was on earth – or he WASN'T. Either he WAS the servant and prophet OF God while he was on earth – or he WASN'T. And most importantly, either we ARE allowed to worship creations, men, and servants OF God – or we AREN'T.
We are not allowed to worship any creature that was made by God and his Word, but according to the scriptures that you saw for yourself and confirmed for me that it was acceptable, otherwise Jesus would of told them not to do it, like the angel in revelations did.
True?Quote So I want you to clarify the statements I quoted above: Do you conclude that we AREN'T allowed to worship men, creations, and servants OF God………. UNLESS that man, creation, and servant OF God happens to be Jesus Christ? And if he is Jesus Christ, all that other stuff is no longer applicable?
Mike, why do you have to make this so drawn out?
Yes, we are not allowed to worship men, creations, servants, angels, rocks, or the sun, moon and stars, only God himself, through Jesus Christ, we know this….but others who do not know him, and only know his name is Jesus Christ, the Son of God can get down and worship him all they like. We can do that too if we want to, but we have more knowledge than someone who is new and has not read the scriptures. They have not sinned.Quote Is THAT your final answer on the subject?
Yes
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