A false view of matthew 4:4?

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Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 21 2014,19:13)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

But that is off topic.

Yes it only leads to another can of worms.

Virtually everything you said in that post was inaccurate, journey. But like I said, this discussion is off topic – so I won't respond to your inaccuracies here.

January 23, 2014 at 1:03 am#368211

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Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 21 2014,20:30)

But men like to do better, by using the name of God. And many men follow men; rather than the Lord.

(The promoters of the jw's name:Not Gods name.)

I suppose the original KJV was “pre-promoting” the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization when they used the name “Jehovah” in a few verses?

And that new “Divine Name KJV” must be sponsored by the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization as well, huh?

Sometimes you guys make me laugh.

January 23, 2014 at 1:09 am#368212

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Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 21 2014,21:58)

Jehovah is a most Holy name.
Not to be taken in vain.
Whe we speak of the Lord,we know which Lord.

Do you even know what “in vain” means in that context, Wakeup? It means that the divine name of God should not be used in a “WORTHLESS WAY”. It doesn't mean we shouldn't use it at all.

Btw, there are MANY gods and MANY lords, both in heaven and on earth. There is certainly nothing wrong with declaring the proper name of OUR Lord and God – the name HE HIMSELF gave us “for all generations”.

Exodus 3
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel…….

this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

I wonder why the KJV people didn't come up with a FAKE name for all the other gods mentioned in the scriptures? They call Molech “Molech”. They call Dagon “Dagon”. They call Chemosh “Chemosh”.

I wonder why they thought the MOST HIGH God was the only one unworthy enough to NOT use His proper name?

It doesn't really matter. The fact is that when doing a PROPER translation, and the Hebrew word is “YHWH”, then whether you translate that word into English as “Yahweh” or “Jehovah”…… you should do it the same way EVERY time the Hebrew word is “YHWH”.

Otherwise, you're ALTERING the holy scriptures.

January 23, 2014 at 8:23 am#368236

Wakeup

Participant

Mikeb.

IN YOUR EYES;JESUS IS ALSO GUILTY OF NEVER USING
HIS FATHERS NAME.
HE CALLS HIS GOD;FATHER. NAUGHTY HIM, AND NAUGHTY US INDEED.
HE, AND US ARE GUILTY; MIKE SAID SO.
WE SHOULD HAVE CALLED HIM JEHOVAH OR YHWH?
NOW WHAT CAN WE DO,BUT FOLLOW THE JW'S.

Is that the only bit of straw you are holding on to?

wakeup.

January 23, 2014 at 1:07 pm#368247

Participant

mikeboll64,Jan. wrote:

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Hi journey,

Here are a few of them:

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Hi Mike

Mmm. Now I see. You can see it in there too, that Jesus was worshiped. I actually forgot about those scriptures, but never will again.

Well, because you don't agree that Jesus can be worshiped, and boldly state that you oppose these divine scriptures, what more can one say to you?
It's not according to your taste?
You don't like hearing that?
It vexes your spirit?

Remember Mike,
we are simple people that you are arguing with,
and to say it in simple terms,
King James had the copyright for the word of God to go out to all nations.
Anyone that comes after and claims they have the right,
is what we call plagiarism.
If the others were first, then they were too slow,
they should of copyrighted the word of God in their version first,
but a bit hard when God is not with you and somebody else gets it.

January 23, 2014 at 1:25 pm#368249

Participant

mikeboll64,Jan. wrote:

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I suppose the original KJV was “pre-promoting” the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization when they used the name “Jehovah” in a few verses?

And that new “Divine Name KJV” must be sponsored by the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization as well, huh?

Sometimes you guys make me laugh.

Mike

There's more to it than that.

This is a typical scenario when they come to my door, all they say is Jehovah Jehovah Jehovah.

“Do you know that God has a name”

“Yes”, he has many. Holy Father, Lord of Hosts, Alpha and Omega, I am, Father of Lights, Almighty Father”

“No they are just titles, God has a name, and unless you use his name he will not hear or answer your prayers”

“Is that so Sister?”
“Then why does the scripture say that we need to call on the name of Jesus in order to be saved?
…and why did Jesus tell us that when we pray to say
…..Our Father, who art in heaven.”

“Look I'll get my elders, and we can come back and have a serious chat as we don't have much time now.”

Just to show you Mike, that unless I use the name Jehovah, I will not be saved. This is what they are telling me. This is how they use that name. They are called “Jehovah Witnesses” don't forget. The only organisation that really concentrates on his name, and this is their main message. They never spoke about Christ to me.

January 23, 2014 at 1:32 pm#368250

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2014,11:01)

Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 21 2014,19:13)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

But that is off topic.

Yes it only leads to another can of worms.

Virtually everything you said in that post was inaccurate, journey. But like I said, this discussion is off topic – so I won't respond to your inaccuracies here.

Mike I have no idea what you are talking about here.

January 23, 2014 at 5:17 pm#368261

Participant

J42

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

January 23, 2014 at 6:15 pm#368269

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2014,03:17)

J42

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Is Jesus guilty for not using the name Jehovah?

wakeup.

January 23, 2014 at 8:56 pm#368275

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2014,23:15)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2014,03:17)

J42

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Is Jesus guilty for not using the name Jehovah?

wakeup.

Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

LK 11:2 And He said to them, “ When you pray, say:
‘ Father, hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.

JN 17:6 “ I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world;

JN 17:26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known

January 23, 2014 at 10:04 pm#368279

Participant

terraricca,Jan. wrote:

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JN 17:6 “ I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world;

JN 17:26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known

Pierre

We are not Israelites don't forget. We are gentiles knowing nothing, and Christ was sent to shed the light for us. We hang of his every word.

So, can you back up those scriptures now?
Where in the NT did Jesus make God's name known to us?
His one and only so called personal name?

January 23, 2014 at 11:12 pm#368283

Participant

Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 24 2014,03:04)

terraricca,Jan. wrote:

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Quote

JN 17:6 “ I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world;

JN 17:26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known

Pierre

We are not Israelites don't forget. We are gentiles knowing nothing, and Christ was sent to shed the light for us. We hang of his every word.

So, can you back up those scriptures now?
Where in the NT did Jesus make God's name known to us?
His one and only so called personal name?

j42

Quote

IN YOUR EYES;JESUS IS ALSO GUILTY OF NEVER USING
HIS FATHERS NAME.

i just show you scriptures that this is a lie

January 24, 2014 at 1:36 am#368289

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Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2014,01:23)

Mikeb.

Is that the only bit of straw you are holding on to?

wakeup.

The “only bit of straw”?

Wakeup, don't you ever READ my posts?

Exodus 6:3 King James Version
……..but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Psalm 83:18 King James Version
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

Isaiah 12:2 King James Version
…….for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isaiah 26:4 King James Version
……..for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength.

In each of the scriptures above, the Hebrew word transliterated as “Jehovah” is “yhwh”.

And based on the way the KJV scholars transliterated “yhwh” in the 4 scriptures above, “Jehovah” must be an acceptable way of transliterating the divine name “yhwh” into English, right?

And according to the KJV's translation of Exodus 3:14, the Hebrew word “yhwh” means “I AM”, right?

So if the word “yhwh” means “I am”, and the KJV people transliterate it as “Jehovah”, where does the translation of “the Lord” come from”?

According to the KJV people, the word doesn't transliterate into “the Lord”. And the word doesn't MEAN “the Lord”. So why in the world would they TRANSLATE it as “the Lord”?

Your point that Jesus didn't use the name is flawed on at least two counts.

First, you have no idea whether or not Jesus ever said the divine name of his God to his disciples. The very oldest known fragment of the NT has the Hebrew word “yhwh” written – IN HEBREW – in the middle of the otherwise all Greek text. So whether or not they were SAYING the name “YHWH” when the NT was written, they were surely still WRITING that divine name.

That is a fact that you can look up yourself.

And second, even IF Jesus never verbalized the divine name of his God, it would have nothing to do with the fact that hundreds of people DID verbalize His name in the OT.

So if we are to translate the words the people of the OT actually said, shouldn't we do it ACCURATELY? See? It doesn't have anything at all to do with whether or not JESUS used that name. And it has nothing at all to do with whether or not YOU or the JWs choose to use it today. It has to do with translating the scriptures ACCURATELY.

And since the Hebrew word “yhwh” does NOT mean “the Lord”, there is no way “the Lord” is an accurate or acceptable translation of that Hebrew word.

So when King David said, “YHWH”, the KJV people should have either transliterated it as “Jehovah” – or translated it as “I am”.

And they should have made one of those two choices EVERY TIME a person in the OT addressed their God as “YHWH”.

Wakeup, I doubt you'll read this post either. And if you do, I already know that your “KJV pride” won't allow you to accept any of it.

But I got to tell you that you and journey often claim inaccurate and flawed things because of either your love for the KJV, or your hate for the JWs.

It's like you are a parent, who loves his boy Tommy, and believes Tommy can do no wrong. (Tommy is the KJV)

But you absolutely hate that neighbor kid Johnny, and believe he can do no right. (Johnny is the JWs)

Because of your love for Tommy, you are blinded to the times he DOES do wrong. And because of your hate for Johnny, you are unable to acknowledge the times he is right.

Try to stop letting EMOTIONS decide how you interpret the scriptures. Because I'm here to tell you – the KJV is NOT always right, and the JWs are NOT always wrong.

January 24, 2014 at 1:50 am#368291

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Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 23 2014,06:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2014,10:57)

Hi journey,

Here are a few of them:

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Hi Mike

Mmm. Now I see. You can see it in there too, that Jesus was worshiped. I actually forgot about those scriptures, but never will again.

Well, because you don't agree that Jesus can be worshiped, and boldly state that you oppose these divine scriptures, what more can one say to you?

Wow! Can't you see how you just backpedaled? Before I reminded you of those scriptures, you were SENSIBLY convinced that Jesus, as a MAN on earth, was not “worshiped”.

But now, seeing those KJV scriptures, you have completely turned your back on your own common sense, and have started to show your fangs to me…… like it's now all of a sudden MY fault!

1. Do you REMEMBER that the KJV also translates as “do obeisance”, “bow before”, and “pay homage”?

Is it possible that one of those other translations they use would fit what was done to Jesus as a MAN on earth better than “worship”?

Is it possible that the KJV uses “worship” in the case of the MAN Jesus only because they were Trinitarians who were BIASED, and who WANTED their readers to be mislead into believing it was okay to “worship” the creation? (Remember that you said the MAN Jesus was indeed a “creation”?)

2. Is it therefore possible that I'm NOT “opposing divine scriptures”, but only opposing the translational CHOICE the KJV scholars made in those few scriptures? (Remember that the KJV scholars, throughout the Bible, made the CHOICE to translate as “worship” here, and “pay homage” or “do obeisance” there?)

So does your COMMON SENSE allow you to agree that “worship” was merely the CHOICE these men made in the scriptures I quoted?

Or does your KJV PRIDE override your own common sense, and NOT allow you to agree?

journey, I have much more to say to you about the use of the divine name, and the things you said in your other posts. I'll try to get to them tomorrow.

January 24, 2014 at 2:04 am#368292

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Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 23 2014,15:04)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2014,06:56)

JN 17:6 “ I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world;

JN 17:26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known

Pierre

So, can you back up those scriptures now?
Where in the NT did Jesus make God's name known to us?
His one and only so called personal name?

journey,

When did JESUS HIMSELF tell us in scripture about his temptation in the wilderness? Nowhere, right?

Does that mean it DIDN'T happen?

So just because there is no known recorded scripture where Jesus SAID the name “Jehovah” doesn't mean he DIDN'T ever say it.

Remember what I told Wakeup about the oldest known fragment of the NT having the divine name in it? Also, remember when Jesus read a passage from the scroll of Isaiah that DID have the divine name in it? How do you know he didn't read that divine name out loud – and that it was later changed to “Lord”?

Because that's what happened to that oldest known fragment of the NT. The oldest one has the Hebrew divine name written in it. This is a fact. You can go online and SEE it with your own eyes.

But the mss that came AFTER that oldest one no longer have that divine Hebrew name in them. Why? Why did the later scribes omit the divine name and substitute it with “Lord”?

The bottom line is that early AFTER Jesus' death, the NT writers DID include God's divine name in their writings. And that makes it absolutely plausible that Jesus himself wrote, read, and said that divine name.

And the scriptures Pierre just posted actually support such a scenario, don't they? How could Jesus say he made God's name known to them if he never actually said that name? Doesn't make much sense to me.

As for your comment about Jehovah being “His one and only so called personal name”, why did you word it like that – as if you don't believe it IS His one and only proper name?

Do you know what a “proper name” is?

January 24, 2014 at 3:24 am#368306

Participant

mikeboll64,Jan. wrote:

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Quote

Wow! Can't you see how you just backpedaled? Before I reminded you of those scriptures, you were SENSIBLY convinced that Jesus, as a MAN on earth, was not “worshiped”.

No Mike, I said Christ always preached the Father, but if one call out to Christ then he has not sinned.

Quote

But now, seeing those KJV scriptures, you have completely turned your back on your own common sense, and have started to show your fangs to me…… like it's now all of a sudden MY fault!

No Mike, now I am more sure, because you brought those scriptures to my attention. Thank you.

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1. Do you REMEMBER that the KJV also translates as “do obeisance”, “bow before”, and “pay homage”?

Yes and they use those words in the right context. I already showed you that. All of those verses you gave were referring to man, except the verse about the stars. So what are you trying to prove?

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Is it possible that one of those other translations they use would fit what was done to Jesus as a MAN on earth better than “worship”?

Not one. All scripture is inspired by God.

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I already answered this. You are going around in circles again with me. There were no such thing as protecting ones doctrine back then. The big trinitarian debates were established after the bible was released to the nations, and not the other way round, and this was in the 50's.
Jesus only became a “creation” when he was made flesh and blood. But before that he was not made, he was the Word of God. This is what you guys fail to understand.
When the Word became flesh, he became man like us. Christ had to be taught also, and his knowledge increased more and more.

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Mike you believe what you want to believe. The new age bibles have committed plagiarism, and although you deny it, you are going against scripture. Against the truth.

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So does your COMMON SENSE allow you to agree that “worship” was merely the CHOICE these men made in the scriptures I quoted?

I believe it was God's choice, seeing he said he has preserved his word.

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Or does your KJV PRIDE override your own common sense, and NOT allow you to agree?

That's the pot calling the kettle black wouldn't you say?

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journey, I have much more to say to you about the use of the divine name, and the things you said in your other posts. I'll try to get to them tomorrow.

Ok. We'll keep dancing for a little while longer.
I'm sure I won't get a kiss at the end of the dance!

January 24, 2014 at 3:31 am#368307

Participant

J42

THIS IS NOT A DANCE

January 24, 2014 at 3:52 am#368309