A false view of matthew 4:4?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 13 2014,10:14)

Mike I know what you are saying, but please listen to what I am saying.

I always listen to what you're saying, journey.  You're not always right, but you're always insightful.  

Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 13 2014,10:14)

Greek is for scholars.  Scholars get their degrees at university.  University's are of the world.

And how about the scholars who produced the KJV?  Did they get their degrees at a university that WASN'T of this world?  

Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 13 2014,10:14)

God made it possible for us to know his word in our own language, and that happens to be english.  This is God's doing.

It's also God's doing that people like Kerwin and me are able to research into the various meanings of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic words to see if the TRINITARIAN translators got it right.  We are charged with keeping them honest, journey.  I hereby give YOU that same charge right here and right now.

Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 13 2014,10:14)

Use the bible as your dictionary. Hebrews 1:6   And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hebrews 1:6 New World Translation
But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

Douay-Rheims Bible
And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him.

Young's Literal Translation
and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him — all messengers of God.'

journey, WHICH of the above is the CORRECT translation?  And how do we English speakers figure that answer out?

1.  We look at the Greek lexicons and dictionaries and see the many ways that Greek word could be translated into English.

So here are the various definitions of that Greek word:

I.  to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

II.  among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

III.  in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

  A.  used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

     i.to the Jewish high priests

     ii.to God

     iii.to Christ

     iv.to heavenly beings

     v.to demons

So now we English speakers can know almost as much about the meanings of that word as the experts know.  (Also take note of definitions ii. and iii. above.  Notice how “Christ” is distinguished FROM “God”.)

2.  Next, we can check the OTHER WAYS that same word is translated in various English Bibles.

The Hebrew equivalent of “proskuneo” is translated in the KJV as follows:

worship (99x), bow (31x), bow down (18x), obeisance (9x), reverence (5x), fall down (3x), themselves (2x), stoop (1x), crouch (1x), misc (3x).

So now we know that the word not only MEANS various different things, but is also TRANSLATED in the KJV various different ways.  We must therefore use CONTEXT to help us determine which translation should be used in which scripture.

3.  We then research into the context, cross-referencing other scriptural teachings to help us out.

A very quick check will result in these scriptural teachings:

Exodus 20
3  “You shall have no other gods before me.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God………”

Isaiah 48:11
……. I will not give my glory unto another.

Deuteronomy 4
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully……..

9 ……..do not be enticed into…. worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

Deuteronomy 6:13
Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

The above scriptures, along with the 100 or so other ones I could list that say the same thing, show us that we are to worship only ONE – and that ONE is Jehovah.

We can also check the scriptures to see if Hebrews 1:6 has a parallel teaching we can use for comparison:

Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Now we have something to go on.  Because this scripture doesn't use the word “proskuneo” – which we know can mean many different things.  Instead, the above scripture spells it out for us that all knees will bow before Jesus.

So look above to the definitions again.  Does the act of bowing your knees to someone automatically constitute and act of WORSHIP towards that person?  Of course not, since all throughout scripture, many people bowed their knees before many people who weren't God.

4.  And finally, we apply our God-given common sense to the matter.  We know that Jesus himself worships the same God we are to worship. (John 4:22)  We also know that we are supposed to worship only the Creator – not the creation.  (Romans 1:25)  And despite your understanding of “the Word”, you must at least believe that the man Jesus Christ was created by God through Mary, right?  And that makes Jesus a creation, right?

Then we take into consideration that Jesus isn't actually God Almighty, but the Messiah, Servant, Priest, Prophet, and sacrificial Lamb OF God Almighty.  Surely our common sense should tell us that we worship the MASTER, and not His SERVANTS, right?

Jesus himself tells us that the one who is sent is not as great as the one who sent him, right?  So why would we worship a greater AND a lesser one, when we are told all throughout scripture that Jehovah our God is ONE?

And Jesus also told us that our one and only God was also HIS one and only God, right?  Does it make sense that we worship Jesus AND his God?

journey, I could go on and on and on here.  But is it really necessary?

The bottom line is this:

1.  We know that H
ebrews 1:6 could either be translated as, “the angels will WORSHIP him” or as, “the angels will BOW BEFORE him”.  We know this because we know the Greek word can mean either, and we've seen other English translations that DON'T use the word “worship” in Hebrews 1:6, right?

2.  We know not to trust the Trinitarian slants of the majority of English Bibles, because they WANT us to believe Jesus actually IS God Himself, and that he should therefore be worshiped.  And that is why most of them translate the word as “bowed before” when the act concerns someone other than Jesus, but as “worshiped” when the act concerns Jesus.  This is a clear bias, and goes against all the scriptures I listed above, plus hundreds of other ones.

3. The disciples of Jesus knew he was not God Almighty Himself, and it is therefore ludicrous to think a single one of them WORSHIPED him as if he WAS God Almighty.

So basically, because your KJV says “the angels will WORSHIP Jesus”, you have bought into this farce – hook, line, and sinker………….  without ever really looking into the many scriptural contradictions worshipping the servant of God would cause.

journey, you CAN'T legitimately say, “God has given us the KJV, and it is 100% accurate and true, so I will believe EVERYTHING written in it.”  Well, not if you are a serious student of scripture anyway.

This brings us to the question part of the post:

journey, do you believe the disciples of Jesus WORSHIPED the human being Jesus while he was on earth?  YES or NO?

And if “YES”:

Was it because they knew he was actually God Almighty Himself?  Or was it because they knew it was okay with Jehovah to worship someone OTHER THAN God Almighty Himself?

Which one?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 13 2014,10:47)

Jesus is not God Almighty, I declare that, but before he was Jesus, he was the Word of God. The bible says that, and as confusing as it sounds to everyone, I understand it and get it.

I get that too. I don't declare that he didn't already have the name “Jesus” when he was at God's side in the beginning – like most people do. I don't claim that because there is no scripture that says such a thing. And on the contrary, there ARE scriptures that say all things were created through JESUS.

That leads me to believe he has always been “Jesus” – even before he came in the flesh.

But there isn't a “Word” who later BECAME “Jesus”, journey. It has been the same exact being all along, and he has been “the Word of God” AND “Jesus” for that entire time.

Just like right now, he is not only “the Word of God” in heaven, but also remains “Jesus Christ” to this very day.

In my understanding, there was only God at first. Then God brought forth the very first of His works, and that first being has many titles and names, including “wisdom”, “the Word”, “Immanuel”, “Jehovah is our Righteousness”, and “Jesus the Christ”.

That first being has been those things since before the ages.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

In your understanding, there was only God at first. And then God spoke a word out of His gut, and it became some other living entity who was no longer God, but was also not a being. And then this entity thing (a LITERAL word God spoke) was transformed into the flesh person Jesus Christ, and became the Son of God AT THAT TIME.

Do I have your understanding correct? Because if so, there are SO MANY things wrong with it, it is hard to count them all. And we will eventually get on with that portion of the discussion, but I want to finish up with this “Jesus is to be worshiped” thing first.

[Wakeup]

MikeB.

It seems That only them that have been seeking through
the Hebrew,Greek,and English,can find the truth.

MY YOKE IS EASY,AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT.
YOU SEEM TO HAVE PUT YOUR OWN BURDEN ON YOURSELF.

No chance for the poor and humble.
According to your way of seeking the truth.
Your way is burdensome,contradicting Jesus own Words.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 14 2014,09:46)

MikeB. It seems That only them that have been seeking through the Hebrew,Greek,and English,can find the truth. MY YOKE IS EASY,AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT. YOU SEEM TO HAVE PUT YOUR OWN BURDEN ON YOURSELF. No chance for the poor and humble. According to your way of seeking the truth. Your way is burdensome,contradicting Jesus own Words. wakeup.

WAKEUP

WHY YOU DO NOT ANSWER MIKE'S QUESTIONS INSTEAD OF INVENTING STORIES WITHOUT SCRIPTURES ,

MIKE SUPPLIES PLENTY OF THEM ,

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 14 2014,17:13)

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 14 2014,09:46) MikeB. It seems That only them that have been seeking through the Hebrew,Greek,and English,can find the truth. MY YOKE IS EASY,AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT. YOU SEEM TO HAVE PUT YOUR OWN BURDEN ON YOURSELF. No chance for the poor and humble. According to your way of seeking the truth. Your way is burdensome,contradicting Jesus own Words. wakeup. WAKEUP WHY YOU DO NOT ANSWER MIKE'S QUESTIONS INSTEAD OF INVENTING STORIES WITHOUT SCRIPTURES , MIKE SUPPLIES PLENTY OF THEM ,

T.

All Mike is doing is putting burdens on himself.
All the food is supplied in the scriptures.
But you and Mike,and Kerwin are shopping around for food
that is not food.Contaminated food of no benefit to the spirit.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

w

Quote

All Mike is doing is putting burdens on himself. All the food is supplied in the scriptures.

yes all food is supplied in scriptures but it is wise to wash your food before consumed them, to make sure that you do not eat some dirt or other poison chemicals left by men , so a good wash could clean them up ;but Mike knows some people like there food the way it come of the market ,were every one as touch it ,and still with dirt ,this must be your way of eating i guess

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,06:07)

w Quote All Mike is doing is putting burdens on himself. All the food is supplied in the scriptures. yes all food is supplied in scriptures but it is wise to wash your food before consumed them, to make sure that you do not eat some dirt or other poison chemicals left by men , so a good wash could clean them up ;but Mike knows some people like there food the way it come of the market ,were every one as touch it ,and still with dirt ,this must be your way of eating i guess

T.

God does not provide us with contaminated food.
How can you make that statement if you truly believe
in God's power?
Are we to reject some of God's food,because we *THINK*
it is contaminated?
This is because we dont fully understand what God has given us: so we go shopping for food that can satisfy our souls.

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 15 2014,02:42)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,06:07) w Quote All Mike is doing is putting burdens on himself. All the food is supplied in the scriptures. yes all food is supplied in scriptures but it is wise to wash your food before consumed them, to make sure that you do not eat some dirt or other poison chemicals left by men , so a good wash could clean them up ;but Mike knows some people like there food the way it come of the market ,were every one as touch it ,and still with dirt ,this must be your way of eating i guess T. God does not provide us with contaminated food. How can you make that statement if you truly believe in God's power? Are we to reject some of God's food,because we *THINK* it is contaminated? This is because we dont fully understand what God has given us: so we go shopping for food that can satisfy our souls. Jeremiah 17:5   Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. wakeup.

w

Quote

God does not provide us with contaminated food.

you are absolutely right ,and he did ,did it not  came down right from his holy spirit ; yes

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

good scripture;

but that was years ago and the test of God and time must be uncovered for wicked men have been at work in the yard of God,so that we may see it in the eyes of the truth as it was meant to see and understand it.

[terraricca]

w

Quote

Are we to reject some of God's food,because we *THINK*

we do not think ;we understand that love does not sleep with evil

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,08:05)

w Quote Are we to reject some of God's food,because we *THINK* we do not think ;we understand that love does not sleep with evil

T.

The reason why you like to go shopping around is because your faith in God's power is of no existence.
Believing in God, but denying his power.
Making flesh his arm.

wakeup.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 13 2014,21:46)

MikeB. It seems That only them that have been seeking through the Hebrew,Greek,and English,can find the truth. MY YOKE IS EASY,AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT. YOU SEEM TO HAVE PUT YOUR OWN BURDEN ON YOURSELF. No chance for the poor and humble. According to your way of seeking the truth. Your way is burdensome,contradicting Jesus own Words. wakeup.

Wakeup,

Try the New World Translation. It is an English Bible that is translated honestly, and doesn't have all of the KJV Trinitarian slants that get you into trouble.

In the NWT, you won't ever read about someone “worshipping” Jesus, or about how “God” was with “God” in the beginning.

If you refuse to do any work on your own, because you were promised a light burden, then the NWT will get you much closer to the truth of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures than the KJV ever did.

Give it a try, brother.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 15 2014,05:14)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,08:05) w Quote Are we to reject some of God's food,because we *THINK* we do not think ;we understand that love does not sleep with evil T. The reason why you like to go shopping around is because your faith in God's power is of no existence. Believing in God, but denying his power. Making flesh his arm. wakeup.

YOU START TO SOUND LIKE JONAH WHEN GOD SEND HIM TO NINIVE

AND TO THE LAZY SERVANT THAT WENT AND BURYING HIS COIN IN THE PARABLE OF JESUS

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,11:22)

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 15 2014,05:14) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,08:05) w Quote Are we to reject some of God's food,because we *THINK* we do not think ;we understand that love does not sleep with evil T. The reason why you like to go shopping around is because your faith in God's power is of no existence. Believing in God, but denying his power. Making flesh his arm. wakeup. YOU START TO SOUND LIKE JONAH WHEN GOD SEND HIM TO NINIVE AND TO THE LAZY SERVANT THAT WENT AND BURYING HIS COIN IN THE PARABLE OF JESUS

T.

And you have no coin to bury.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 15 2014,09:38)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,11:22) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 15 2014,05:14) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,08:05) w Quote Are we to reject some of God's food,because we *THINK* we do not think ;we understand that love does not sleep with evil T. The reason why you like to go shopping around is because your faith in God's power is of no existence. Believing in God, but denying his power. Making flesh his arm. wakeup. YOU START TO SOUND LIKE JONAH WHEN GOD SEND HIM TO NINIVE AND TO THE LAZY SERVANT THAT WENT AND BURYING HIS COIN IN THE PARABLE OF JESUS T. And you have no coin to bury. wakeup.

w

I have to shake my head ,you are a 12 year old boy

[Wakeup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,10:46)

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 13 2014,21:46) MikeB. It seems That only them that have been seeking through the Hebrew,Greek,and English,can find the truth. MY YOKE IS EASY,AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT. YOU SEEM TO HAVE PUT YOUR OWN BURDEN ON YOURSELF. No chance for the poor and humble. According to your way of seeking the truth. Your way is burdensome,contradicting Jesus own Words. wakeup. Wakeup, Try the New World Translation.  It is an English Bible that is translated honestly, and doesn't have all of the KJV Trinitarian slants that get you into trouble. In the NWT, you won't ever read about someone “worshipping” Jesus, or about how “God” was with “God” in the beginning. If you refuse to do any work on your own, because you were promised a light burden, then the NWT will get you much closer to the truth of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures than the KJV ever did. Give it a try, brother.

Mike b.

If you are happy with the NWT,
thats fine.
God gave me the KJV, and I stick to it.
In the KJV I have found all the answers.

wakeup.

[journey42]

mikeboll64,Jan. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Hebrews 1:6   And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Quote

Hebrews 1:6 New World Translation But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” Douay-Rheims Bible And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. Young's Literal Translation and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him — all messengers of God.' journey, WHICH of the above is the CORRECT translation?  And how do we English speakers figure that answer out?

Hi Mike

Sorry it took so long to answer, but it took me a few days to read!  Is this pay back time?

Bow doesn't sound right.  Anyone can bow to anyone.  Even Kunfu guys bow to each other before a fight.
Adore is not specific enough, any one can adore anyone.
Obeisance would have to be the worst , as it is not an everyday common english word, and I had to look it up,…so the worst one by far,

My answer is the KJV.  WORSHIP.  This is specific, straight forward, and lets us know that God has given Christ charge over all things, even the angels. After all he is crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That's the highest title.

[journey42]

mikeboll64,Jan. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

This brings us to the question part of the post: journey, do you believe the disciples of Jesus WORSHIPED the human being Jesus while he was on earth?  YES or NO?

Mike

Was Jesus get crowned before he finished the job?
Must finish the race before one gets the prize.

Quote

And if “YES”: Was it because they knew he was actually God Almighty Himself?

 
Jesus Christ was not God Almighty himself.  They knew he was the Son of God.

Quote

Or was it because they knew it was okay with Jehovah to worship someone OTHER THAN God Almighty Himself?

Hebrews 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

He also made the worlds Mike, when he was the Word of God, in the beginning.
The Word of God has been tested and found true.  Whether in spirit form, or in the flesh.  The Word is loyal and true, and obeys the Father even until death.  God's Word, in whatever form never fails, is always true.
God gives the command, and the Word obeys.
It was revealed Jesus is the Word of God.
How much closer can you get to the Father than that?

[journey42]

mikeboll64,Jan. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Exodus 20 3  “You shall have no other gods before me. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God………”

Yes, this is the command.  Tell me Mike, was the Son sent then?

Quote

Isaiah 48:11 ……. I will not give my glory unto another.

 John 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
This is the Word speaking Mike.  
He already had that glory with the Father,
and when Christ was crucified and risen,
God told the angels to worship him,
because they are spiritual and know his position.
Christ has not yet been glorified publicly in front of man,
but will have his day at his coming when he comes with all the host of heaven.
The world will see the glory God gives him,
and every knee will bow to him with trembling and fear,
for their lives are in his hands, and they are at his mercy.
He is given this position, to take over for a while.

Quote

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

Like I said, Jesus was not crowned yet.  He was being tried.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 15 2014,09:38)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,11:22) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 15 2014,05:14) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2014,08:05) w Quote Are we to reject some of God's food,because we *THINK* we do not think ;we understand that love does not sleep with evil T. The reason why you like to go shopping around is because your faith in God's power is of no existence. Believing in God, but denying his power. Making flesh his arm. wakeup. YOU START TO SOUND LIKE JONAH WHEN GOD SEND HIM TO NINIVE AND TO THE LAZY SERVANT THAT WENT AND BURYING HIS COIN IN THE PARABLE OF JESUS T. And you have no coin to bury. wakeup.

[Wakeup]

Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 16 2014,02:20)

mikeboll64,Jan. wrote: [/quote] Quote Hebrews 1:6   And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Quote Hebrews 1:6 New World Translation But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” Douay-Rheims Bible And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. Young's Literal Translation and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him — all messengers of God.' journey, WHICH of the above is the CORRECT translation?  And how do we English speakers figure that answer out? Hi Mike Sorry it took so long to answer, but it took me a few days to read!  Is this pay back time? Bow doesn't sound right.  Anyone can bow to anyone.  Even Kunfu guys bow to each other before a fight. Adore is not specific enough, any one can adore anyone. Obeisance would have to be the worst , as it is not an everyday common english word, and I had to look it up,…so the worst one by far, My answer is the KJV.  WORSHIP.  This is specific, straight forward, and lets us know that God has given Christ charge over all things, even the angels.  After all he is crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  That's the highest title.

Journey42.

Those new translations are subtly introducing new words
to put the seekers astray. Here a word, and there a word.

Do you remember how John the baptist was to prepare the way for the Messiah? Well, The way is being prepared now for the false prophet. physically and spiritually.

RE' bowing down to idols, is seen by God as worship.
Why would one bow down to a stone that can not see?
That is nothing but worship.
Therefore God sees that as worship also.

wakeup.

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