A false view of matthew 4:4?

[Wakeup]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2013,06:48)

Wakeup, It is written: Ezekiel 34:20-24 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 22 therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. Who is David in this passage?

Kerwin.

That servant David is the Son of David
The Son of man,the Son of God.

wakeup.

[Wakeup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,10:47)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 10 2013,23:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,12:19) Wakeup, Do you understand that both the Hebrew and Greek words for “worship” also mean “do obeisance” or “pay homage” or “bow down before in an act of reverence”? The same words mean all of those things, and are translated as each of those things throughout scripture. So in the end, it all comes down to an English translator's CHOICE to translate as “worship” here, and as “bowed down before” there. Many Trinitarian translators jump at the chance to CHOOSE “worship” in verses that refer to Jesus.  Don't fall for their Trinitarian tricks, Wakeup.  Jesus was bowed down before in acts of reverence, like many lords, kings, and nobles were in many scriptures.  But Jesus was never once “worshiped” in any scripture. Lesson #1:  Do you accept the FACT that the Hebrew word “shachah”, and the Greek word “proskuneo”, both refer not only to “worship”, but also to non-worship acts of reverence towards people who are not God?  YES or NO? MikeB. The man Jesus was called Lord, and honoured as the Son of God. We *depend on Him* to have life. We should worship Him: that is acceptable to God. I didn't see an answer to my bolded question, Wakeup. Please answer my question DIRECTLY.

Mikeb.

I only know the word WORSHIP.
And I also know that only God we should WORSHIP.

I dont know what worship is in swahili.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 17 2013,16:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,10:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 10 2013,23:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,12:19) Wakeup, Do you understand that both the Hebrew and Greek words for “worship” also mean “do obeisance” or “pay homage” or “bow down before in an act of reverence”? The same words mean all of those things, and are translated as each of those things throughout scripture. So in the end, it all comes down to an English translator's CHOICE to translate as “worship” here, and as “bowed down before” there. Many Trinitarian translators jump at the chance to CHOOSE “worship” in verses that refer to Jesus.  Don't fall for their Trinitarian tricks, Wakeup.  Jesus was bowed down before in acts of reverence, like many lords, kings, and nobles were in many scriptures.  But Jesus was never once “worshiped” in any scripture. Lesson #1:  Do you accept the FACT that the Hebrew word “shachah”, and the Greek word “proskuneo”, both refer not only to “worship”, but also to non-worship acts of reverence towards people who are not God?  YES or NO? MikeB. The man Jesus was called Lord, and honoured as the Son of God. We *depend on Him* to have life. We should worship Him: that is acceptable to God. I didn't see an answer to my bolded question, Wakeup. Please answer my question DIRECTLY. Mikeb. I only know the word WORSHIP. And I also know that only God we should WORSHIP. I dont know what worship is in swahili. wakeup.

W

BECOMING WILLFULLY BLIND

[kerwin]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 17 2013,16:35)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2013,06:48) Wakeup, It is written: Ezekiel 34:20-24 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 22 therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. Who is David in this passage? Kerwin. That servant David is the Son of David The Son of man,the Son of God. wakeup.

Wakeup,

I agree that both David and Jesus are linked.  Just as David the king stood before the congregation and the later “worshiped” God and him, so to does David that is Jesus do.

Note: I inserted a comma, switched the later for they, and removed an unnecessary the.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2013,10:50)

……they “worshiped” God and him so to does the David that is Jesus do.

What freakin' language is that, Kerwin?  

They all look like English words, but it's definitely not an English statement.  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 14 2013,13:25)

Mike b. King david is not Jesus. Incase you dont know.

I'm aware of that, Wakeup.

But knowing that Jesus and David are different SERVANTS OF God doesn't really address the point that both Kerwin and I have now made.

Please address the POINT.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 17 2013,04:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,10:47) Lesson #1:  Do you accept the FACT that the Hebrew word “shachah”, and the Greek word “proskuneo”, both refer not only to “worship”, but also to non-worship acts of reverence towards people who are not God?  YES or NO? Mikeb. I only know the word WORSHIP.

Well then, let me educate you once again:

Genesis 23:7 KJV
And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.

Do you see the bolded word “bowed”?  That is the Hebrew word “shachah”.

Genesis 43:28 KJV
And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.

Do you see the bolded words “made obeisance”?  That is the Hebrew word “shachah”.

1Kings 1:31 KJV
Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever.

Do you see the bolded words “did reverence”?  That is the Hebrew word “shachah”.

Genesis 27:29 KJV
Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

Do you see those two bolded phrases “bow down”?  Those are both the Hebrew word “shachah”.

Genesis 22:5 KJV
And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

Do you see the bolded word “worship”?  That is also the Hebrew word “shachah”.

All these verses are from the KJV, Wakeup.  Are you able to see the five different ways the KJV scholars translate the Hebrew word “shachah”?

And, assuming that you ARE capable of seeing what is black and white and right in front of your face, do you then understand that even though it is the same Hebrew word, the KJV scholars made different CHOICES of how to translate it – depending on the context?

[Wakeup]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2013,03:50)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 17 2013,16:35) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2013,06:48) Wakeup, It is written: Ezekiel 34:20-24 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 22 therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. Who is David in this passage? Kerwin. That servant David is the Son of David The Son of man,the Son of God. wakeup. Wakeup, I agree that both David and Jesus are linked.  Just as David the king stood before the congregation and they “worshiped” God and him so to does the David that is Jesus do.

Kerwin.

That is correct.
David was king of israel.
The Son of David will also be the king of israel
His kingdom will last one thousand years in Jerusalem.

wakeup.

[journey42]

mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Genesis 23:7 KJV And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth. Do you see the bolded word “bowed”?  That is the Hebrew word “shachah”. Genesis 43:28 KJV And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.

Mike,

The Kjv translates the word “shachah” as follows below.  There is obviously more than one way of defining, .., and it has to be used “in context”

These are the different meanings for that one word
shachah
1. worship (99x),
2. bow (31x),
3. bow down (18x),
4. obeisance (9x),
5. reverence (5x),
6. fall down (3x),
7. themselves (2x),
8. stoop (1x),
9. crouch (1x),
10. misc (3x).

Do you think they should of translated it like this?
…..  “Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and [bowed.   ?

[journey42]

mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:

[/quote]

mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:

Quote

1Kings 1:31 KJV Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever. Do you see the bolded words “did reverence”?  That is the Hebrew word “shachah”.

Ok, let's use this then

shachah
1. worship (99x),
2. bow (31x),
3. bow down (18x),
4. obeisance (9x),
5. reverence (5x),
6. fall down (3x),
7. themselves (2x),
8. stoop (1x),
9. crouch (1x),
10. misc (3x).

Bath-Sheba did not worship king David, nor did she “fall down”..she didn't “stoop” or “crouch”,…. but she would of done whatever was required, and the word “reverence” gives us more detail that she was “greeting and approaching someone of high authority which happens to not only be a king”, but “a man highly favoured by God” also he is “her husband”, and the “father of their child, Solomon”. (take all this into account)

You give reverence to someone you deeply respect. What is pointed out in the verse is “what she did” and “not how she did it”

Are you with me?  This is God's style.  His words, how he wants the story told.  He said he “preserved his word” and his words are used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction.
Not man's doctrine interpreting his words, but HIS PRESERVED WORDS….TRUTH…FOR US.
To believe in him is to believe his WORDS, that they are truth and not try to prove his words false.

[journey42]

I see that all these definitions for the one hebrew word etc  are traps.  Traps set up by God.
If God created “everything” then he would of created language.  He could of made it simple or complicated,
but he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted. 
So God set the bait for the enemy, not to destroy his word, but to put a division there so we can have this fulfilled;

John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see.

[terraricca]

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,21:54)

I see that all these definitions for the one hebrew word etc  are traps.  Traps set up by God. If God created “everything” then he would of created language.  He could of made it simple or complicated, but he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted.  So God set the bait for the enemy, not to destroy his word, but to put a division there so we can have this fulfilled; John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see.

j42

just give me the true definition of the word “WORSHIP “

SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVEY HERE ;

UNLESS YOU GIVE US THAT DESCRIPTION YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL ,

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,04:42)

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,21:54) I see that all these definitions for the one hebrew word etc  are traps.  Traps set up by God. If God created “everything” then he would of created language.  He could of made it simple or complicated, but he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted.  So God set the bait for the enemy, not to destroy his word, but to put a division there so we can have this fulfilled; John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see. j42 just give me the true definition of the word “WORSHIP “ SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVEY HERE ; UNLESS YOU GIVE US THAT DESCRIPTION YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL ,

T.

Has it gone that bad,that you need someone to explain
the word worship?
What have you been doing all those years?
Did you not know what you were doing?
Were you just sweet talking God?

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:22)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,04:42) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,21:54) I see that all these definitions for the one hebrew word etc  are traps.  Traps set up by God. If God created “everything” then he would of created language.  He could of made it simple or complicated, but he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted.  So God set the bait for the enemy, not to destroy his word, but to put a division there so we can have this fulfilled; John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see. j42 just give me the true definition of the word “WORSHIP “ SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVEY HERE ; UNLESS YOU GIVE US THAT DESCRIPTION YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL , T. Has it gone that bad,that you need someone to explain the word worship? What have you been doing all those years? Did you not know what you were doing? Were you just sweet talking God? wakeup.

w

it is because of your twisted mind that I have to request this ,

so do not blame me ,

either you give me the description of the word “worship” or i declare you a fake and deceiver

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,07:29)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:22) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,04:42) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,21:54) I see that all these definitions for the one hebrew word etc  are traps.  Traps set up by God. If God created “everything” then he would of created language.  He could of made it simple or complicated, but he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted.  So God set the bait for the enemy, not to destroy his word, but to put a division there so we can have this fulfilled; John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see. j42 just give me the true definition of the word “WORSHIP “ SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVEY HERE ; UNLESS YOU GIVE US THAT DESCRIPTION YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL , T. Has it gone that bad,that you need someone to explain the word worship? What have you been doing all those years? Did you not know what you were doing? Were you just sweet talking God? wakeup. w it is because of your twisted mind that I have to request this , so do not blame me , either you give me the description of the word “worship” or i declare you a fake and deceiver

T.

You must have been just sweet talking God,
all those years.

You must *worship* God by following all his commandments.
And that includes eating His flesh.
Which you have not done. You have filled yourself
with strange flesh instead.(yea;it taste good and sweet).
I can see that you are full of it.

You need to vomit it all out and start with
eating the food that gives life.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:40)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,07:29) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:22) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,04:42) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,21:54) I see that all these definitions for the one hebrew word etc  are traps.  Traps set up by God. If God created “everything” then he would of created language.  He could of made it simple or complicated, but he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted.  So God set the bait for the enemy, not to destroy his word, but to put a division there so we can have this fulfilled; John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see. j42 just give me the true definition of the word “WORSHIP “ SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVEY HERE ; UNLESS YOU GIVE US THAT DESCRIPTION YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL , T. Has it gone that bad,that you need someone to explain the word worship? What have you been doing all those years? Did you not know what you were doing? Were you just sweet talking God? wakeup. w it is because of your twisted mind that I have to request this , so do not blame me , either you give me the description of the word “worship” or i declare you a fake and deceiver T. You must have been just sweet talking God, all those years. You must *worship* God by following all his commandments. And that includes eating His flesh. Which you have not done. You have filled yourself with strange flesh instead.(yea;it taste good and sweet). I can see that you are full of it. You need to vomit it all out and start with eating the food that gives life. wakeup.

w

Quote

Mikeb. I only know the word WORSHIP. And I also know that only God we should WORSHIP. I dont know what worship is in swahili. wakeup.

so why do you not just give us your interpretation in English

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,07:45)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:40) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,07:29) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:22) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,04:42) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,21:54) I see that all these definitions for the one hebrew word etc  are traps.  Traps set up by God. If God created “everything” then he would of created language.  He could of made it simple or complicated, but he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted.  So God set the bait for the enemy, not to destroy his word, but to put a division there so we can have this fulfilled; John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see. j42 just give me the true definition of the word “WORSHIP “ SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVEY HERE ; UNLESS YOU GIVE US THAT DESCRIPTION YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL , T. Has it gone that bad,that you need someone to explain the word worship? What have you been doing all those years? Did you not know what you were doing? Were you just sweet talking God? wakeup. w it is because of your twisted mind that I have to request this , so do not blame me , either you give me the description of the word “worship” or i declare you a fake and deceiver T. You must have been just sweet talking God, all those years. You must *worship* God by following all his commandments. And that includes eating His flesh. Which you have not done. You have filled yourself with strange flesh instead.(yea;it taste good and sweet). I can see that you are full of it. You need to vomit it all out and start with eating the food that gives life. wakeup. w Quote Mikeb. I only know the word WORSHIP. And I also know that only God we should WORSHIP. I dont know what worship is in swahili. wakeup. so why do you not just give us your interpretation in English

T.

FOLLOW THE COMMANDMENTS.
AND START EATING JESUS FLESH,
NOT MENS FLESH.
THIS IS WORSHIP.

wakeup.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,09:51)

Bath-Sheba did not worship king David, nor did she “fall down”..she didn't “stoop” or “crouch”,…. but she would of done whatever was required, and the word “reverence” gives us more detail that she was “greeting and approaching someone of high authority which happens to not only be a king”, but “a man highly favoured by God” also he is “her husband”, and the “father of their child, Solomon”. (take all this into account) You give reverence to someone you deeply respect. What is pointed out in the verse is “what she did” and “not how she did it” Are you with me?

journey,

You are as sharp as a tack.  But I don't think you realize that you are helping me make my point to Wakeup.  

Everything you said here is exactly correct.  Even though the same Hebrew word is used, the CONTEXT tells ALL OF US (not just the KJV writers) which definition should be used.

And I agree with every CHOICE of definitions the KJV writers made in the five verses I quoted.

So let's consider the words YOU wrote when evaluating whether Jesus was “worshiped” by men on earth – as if he was God Almighty Himself – or “reverenced” by men on earth as a “king” and “a man highly favoured by God”.

The only real question is:  Did any of those who bowed before Jesus believe he was God Almighty Himself?  YES or NO?

And since the only honest answer is “NO”, then it is not likely that these God-fearing Jews would have “worshiped” him as if he WAS God.  Agreed?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,09:54)

…….he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted. His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see.

Once again you are correct.  The Hebrew and Greek texts HAVE BEEN corrupted by scribes throughout history.

And there are many corrupted versions of God's written word out there – in all languages, including English.

And some people, even after being shown some of the corruptions in their favorite version, still choose to follow that version blindly.  And so God leaves them with the corrupted version because they REFUSE TO see.

Thankfully for us who live in this day and age, we have access to the UNCORRUPTED scriptures.  We have something to test those corrupted versions against now.

Thank God, for HE is the one who has done this, and it is good.

(My point is not to single out and slam any particular version of the scriptures, but to remind all of us to recognize the corruptions in ALL VERSIONS, and adjust accordingly when reading those corrupted words.)

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:53)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,07:45) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:40) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,07:29) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,02:22) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,04:42) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 18 2013,21:54) I see that all these definitions for the one hebrew word etc  are traps.  Traps set up by God. If God created “everything” then he would of created language.  He could of made it simple or complicated, but he chose the complicated Hebrew and Greek so that it could be corrupted.  So God set the bait for the enemy, not to destroy his word, but to put a division there so we can have this fulfilled; John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: His word is “holy” and he does not feed it to his enemies, but leaves them with the corrupted version so they cannot see. j42 just give me the true definition of the word “WORSHIP “ SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVEY HERE ; UNLESS YOU GIVE US THAT DESCRIPTION YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL , T. Has it gone that bad,that you need someone to explain the word worship? What have you been doing all those years? Did you not know what you were doing? Were you just sweet talking God? wakeup. w it is because of your twisted mind that I have to request this , so do not blame me , either you give me the description of the word “worship” or i declare you a fake and deceiver T. You must have been just sweet talking God, all those years. You must *worship* God by following all his commandments. And that includes eating His flesh. Which you have not done. You have filled yourself with strange flesh instead.(yea;it taste good and sweet). I can see that you are full of it. You need to vomit it all out and start with eating the food that gives life. wakeup. w Quote Mikeb. I only know the word WORSHIP. And I also know that only God we should WORSHIP. I dont know what worship is in swahili. wakeup. so why do you not just give us your interpretation in English T. FOLLOW THE COMMANDMENTS. AND START EATING JESUS FLESH, NOT MENS FLESH. THIS IS WORSHIP. wakeup.

w

you are starting to be ridicule

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