A false view of matthew 4:4?

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 26 2013,10:58)

Mike, you apparently do not know the extent of what Jesus had to suffer in our behalf.

I don't mean to belittle Jesus' suffering, Marty. But I know that MANY disciples have suffered way worse deaths than he did.

The difference is that they were all going to die anyway – at some point. Jesus, on the other hand, was created in a way that he never would have had to suffer being a human – let alone dying on a stake. He was created in the form of God, but emptied himself to be made in the likeness of a human. And after that first jump from the top of the ladder to the bottom of the ladder, he humbled himself even more by becoming obedient to death.

The difference is that Jesus wasn't created to be obedient to death in the first place. He ALLOWED death to conquer him because it was the will of His God.

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 26 2013,10:58)

No, my name is Marty, and I would not want any part of this……….

I don't believe you. Are you saying that if God Himself talked to you today and told you that you were going to suffer death and then be raised to His right hand, you would tell God “NO!” ? I will start calling you “Jonah” from now on.

September 26, 2013 at 11:18 pm#358793

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 25 2013,22:13)

Thank you mike,it looks good.
Need to practise.

September 26, 2013 at 11:27 pm#358796

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 27 2013,03:48)

Hi Wakeup:

John 1c states that the Word was God, and you said that Jesus is the Word in John 1, and so, if Jesus is the Word in John 1c, then what I am asking you is the following question: Is Jesus God?

I disagree with some of the other statements that you have made in your last post, and I will address these statements at some other time, but now, please give me your answer to the question that I've asked. Thanks.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty.

A straight forward question;so it seems.
But not easy to unravel this mystery.

(the word *God* is a title,not a name).

In the *BEGINNING WAS* the Word,
and the Word was *WITH* Jehovah.
And the Word *WAS* Jehovah.
Why *WAS* jehovah? Why BEGINNING?
Because before JEHOVAH *brought forth* his Word
out of himself, the Word was within Jehovah; *WAS* still in him; therefore the word *WAS* Jehovah.
After Jehovah brought forth his Word;Then his Word,
*WAS WITH*Jehova'h; next to him.Working on Jehovah's
command.

Back to the word God.
The word *god* is applied to anything that is worshipped.
Money is a god too;to most.
We worship God the father,
and also worship his Son.Have the Son have the Father.
So that makes them both God.(worshipped).
The Son is still, and always be God's Word.

My question:
Is your word: you/Marty?
When you bring out your word,out of you.
and made him your express image,sitting next to you.
Is he you, or still your word?

wakeup.

September 26, 2013 at 11:35 pm#358799

Blocked

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2013,22:00)

The other option which is the one you use I think, is to copy that which you want to directly reply to, then quote the post, and then paste over all the text in the quoted text box.

That way it automatically includes the author of the quote and only the relevant part of the quote.

I do that if I'm only going to respond to ONE quote from the other guy. If I'm going to respond to more than one……….

1. Hit “Quote Post” on their post.
2. Copy the first of their quotes from the bottom box.
3. Hit “Quote” on the top box.
4. Paste that first quote I copied behind the “quote”.
5. Hit “Quote” again at the end of the quote I just copied from the bottom box, and pasted to the top box.
6. Type my reply.

7. Search the bottom box for the next quote from them I'm going to respond to.
8. Copy it from the bottom box.
9. Hit “Quote” again in the top box.
10. Paste the second quote of theirs that I just copied after the “Quote”.
11. Hit the “Quote” button a second time, after their words that I just pasted.
12. Type my reply.

I do this over and over until I've copied from the bottom and pasted to the top all of their words that I wanted to quote and reply to. Then I completely empty that bottom box. (Select all – Delete)

Then I hit “Preview Post”. At this time, the finished product will look like the re-do I did for Wakeup. There will be quote boxes for their words, and my responses after them.

But then I go one step further……….

When I hit that “Preview Post” button, the name and time stamp of the author I was quoting show as the very first line on the preview. So I copy that name/time stamp, and paste it over the top of all the [Quote]'s in the post.

That way, when I'm done, it isn't just a quote box with their words inside, and the generic word “Quote” above it. Instead it is a quote box with their words inside, and their name and time stamp above it.

So in the case of my last post to Marty, I copied his name and time stamp, and pasted that name/time stamp over the word “Quote” two times.

Make sense?

September 26, 2013 at 11:55 pm#358802

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2013,10:35)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2013,22:00)

The other option which is the one you use I think, is to copy that which you want to directly reply to, then quote the post, and then paste over all the text in the quoted text box.

That way it automatically includes the author of the quote and only the relevant part of the quote.

I do that if I'm only going to respond to ONE quote from the other guy. If I'm going to respond to more than one……….

Then I hit “Preview Post”. At this time, the finished product will look like the re-do I did for Wakeup. There will be quote boxes for their words, and my responses after them.

But then I go one step further……….

So in the case of my last post to Marty, I copied his name and time stamp, and pasted that name/time stamp over the word “Quote” two times.

Make sense?

Hi Mike.

How can I practise without it getting posted.
How can I erase?

wakeup.

September 26, 2013 at 11:55 pm#358803

Participant

Hi Wakeup:

You say:

Quote

Marty.

A straight forward question;so it seems.
But not easy to unravel this mystery.

No, it is not difficult to unravel. Jesus stated that there was only “One True God”, and he said himself, that he was ascending to his Father and God and to our Father and our God, and also, he said that we were his brothers, and so, “the Word” in John 1 cannot be Jesus as a sentient person, but the Word are the sayings of God, and the Word pertains to Jesus coming at a specific point in time to fulfill God's plan for humanity.
And so, why in the beginning was the Word? Because when God began to create, he had a plan to redeem humanity to himself, and the scriptures state, the made man in his own image, but there was a first Adam, and a last Adam. The first Adam was made a living soul, and the last Adam was made a life giving spirit. The first Adam was like God in that he was a living soul, with a mind, a will, and emotions, and the last Adam was like God in that his spirit was formed by the Word of God as Jesus applied it to his life in this present evil world, and so, he through the Word became like God in that through the Word “he is the express image of God's person”

And so, definitely the Word or the sayings of God is God, in that through the Word manifest through Jesus life, we have seen God' character. The Word of God originated from God, not from Jesus. Jesus obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross.

This is not difficult, but men through their misinterpretation of the scriptures have made things very confusing, and it is a serious thing if we have misrepresented what God said through Jesus. Many Jews and Muslims will not be saved because the church is teaching that Jesus is God.

And therein lies my concern. Jesus gave his life so that the world would know that God sent him and that whosoever believes can come to God with a repentant heart through him, and be forgiven their sins and have eternal life.

Love in Christ,
Marty

September 27, 2013 at 12:11 am#358807

terraricca

Participant

Marty /wakeup

Quote

so god was deaf mute before he created “the word” that is exactly what you are saying ;

you also saying that before God created all his creation was IN HIM SELF ” WHY IS THAT if so God did not created anything because it all was there already ; WHAT SCRIPTURES WOULD YOU USE TO FOR SUPPORT

WHY ARE YOU CLAIMING TO BE “BROTHERS” OF CHRIST AND YET DENY ALL WHAT CHRIST IS SAYING ABOUT HIMSELF ,AND THROUGH HIS REAL AND TRUE BROTHERS ,DO YOU GUYS DO NOT SEE HOW FAR YOU ARE FROM THE TRUTH OF CHRIST ,AND STILL HAVE THE GUTS TO CALL HIM YOUR BROTHER ???THIS IS SCARY .

September 27, 2013 at 12:13 am#358808

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 26 2013,17:27)

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 27 2013,03:48)

Hi Wakeup:

…….and so, if Jesus is the Word in John 1c, then what I am asking you is the following question: Is Jesus God?

Marty.

Marty makes a good point, Wakeup.

If you believe the Word is Jesus, and you believe “the Word was Jehovah”, then it is a case of:

1. Jesus actually IS Jehovah God.
2. Something that WAS Jehovah God became something that is no longer Jehovah God.

You said that it isn't easy to “unravel this mystery”, and then went on to explain things in a way that made my head spin.

Both of those things smack of Trinitarianism, Wakeup. They always tell us how hard it is to come to terms with the “great mystery” that Jesus is God Almighty. And then go on to “explain” it to us in words that no sensible person can even understand. So if your current understanding is that difficult to explain, maybe you need to adjust your current understanding.

You are right that Jesus is most definitely the Word who was with Jehovah in the beginning. The whole of John's gospel, and the rest of the NT, attest to this fact many times.

But you are wrong that Jesus WAS God, and then WASN'T God anymore. Jesus has always (since his creation) been an individual being who is not the God who created him. He is God's SON. Surely God didn't break a piece off of Himself and call it His SON.

This is the kind of trouble people get into with that flawed Trinitarian translation “and the Word was God”. Common sense should be enough to tell any one of us that “God” could not possibly have been WITH “God” in the beginning.

So although the Trinitarians originally botched that translation on purpose to get people to believe Jesus was also “God” – the stumbling block they laid continues to trip up even non-Trinitarians.

Remember that the Coptic language was the first language into which the NT was translated……. that used an indefinite article. And in the Coptic translation, John 1:1 says, “and the Word was a god”.

That means that the very first time someone had a chance to translate 1:1c as “the Word was a god”………. THEY DID IT. And that translation was written very close to the time the original disciples were on the earth, Wakeup.

Please at least give that translation some thought. Because the alternative is that “Jehovah” was WITH “Jehovah” in the beginning. And even the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars who produced the NET Bible, after explaining that “a god” is a possible translation, say:

The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)

We should all be able to see this common sense, IMO. The Word cannot BE “the person of God”, because the Word was WITH “the person of God”.

Please think about these things. Search the scriptures and tell me if any scripture in the entire Bible would prohibit Jesus from being “a god” who was WITH “the God” in the beginning.

September 27, 2013 at 12:15 am#358810

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 26 2013,17:55)

Hi Mike.

How can I practise without it getting posted.

There are a couple of “Test” threads here. Go to a test thread, and try quoting just a few things from one of the posts already there – responding to each thing separately.

Do that, and if it turns out funky, I'll be able to see what needs tweaked.

September 27, 2013 at 12:32 am#358815

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 27 2013,10:55)

Hi Wakeup:

You say:

Quote

Marty.

A straight forward question;so it seems.
But not easy to unravel this mystery.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty.

It seems that we have some agreement here.
I know you worship Jesus also.
And I do also.

Except that you are saying that the Word of God is not a santient person;just the *sayings*(words) of God.
I say the Word of God is a being that created all things.
For *HE* had glory with God before the world was.
*HE* was sent to earth to dwell amongst men.

God did not create a new man on earth just to be God's mouth piece. He was from everlasting with God.
God's *sayings*(plural) was not sent down,but Gods Word.
God's Word consist of many,many, words; spoken by God.

You worship Jesus,you also worship God.
You have the Son,you also have the Father.
He who calls upon Jesus name shall be saved.

But we ought to worship with knowledge.
That the Son has Jehovah as his God also.
So we worship God in the name of Jesus.
For he is the mediator between God and man.
He is the door to God.

wakeup.

September 27, 2013 at 6:48 pm#358850

Participant

Hi Wakeup:

As I have shown you the term “worship” can mean to show reverence for a king, and so, yes, I do worship Jesus in this sense, but no, I do not worship him as God. He said himself that he was not my God.

I said, and I thought that you agreed that “the Word of God” was the sayings of God, but you are saying that “the sayings of God” are a person, Jesus who created the world and the host thereof. But the scriptures stated that God created all things by Himself. The glory that Jesus had with God from the beginning was something that was forseen. God speaks those things that are not as though they were. It was a done deal that Jesus would be exalted to his position at the right hand of God at the completion of his ministry here on earth, so in that sense, he had this glory with God from the beginning.

It was in God's wisdom, that Jesus would be conceived by the Holy Ghost and be born into this world, and that he would obey God without sin even unto death on the cross.

Since all men, including those who obeyed God in the OT, Noah and his family, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and those under the Law who obeyed God, have sinned, and since the wages of sin is death, although they obeyed God, they would be dead in their trespasses.

But Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, and therefore, the blood that he shed washes away the sins of all who obeyed him from the beginning to his ministry here on earth, and it washes away the sins of all who come to God through him with a repentant heart believing the gospel from his ministry here on earth until he comes for the church.

And it was done this way, so that if anyone chooses to serve God, it would be with a free will. God calls all into a relationship with Him through the gospel, but he will not interfere with a person's free will. He will not force anyone to obey Him. John 3:16-18.

Those who obeyed God from the beginning until Jesus ministry will be born again from the dead when Jesus comes for the church. In other words, they will be born of God, at that time, just as we are when we come to Jesus in the NT, and all will receive a spiritual body at that time.

Quote

Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 2:17

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Eph 2:18

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Love in Christ,
Marty

September 27, 2013 at 8:38 pm#358852

Participant

Hi Mike:

Jesus death on the cross and his suffering was no ordinary physical death. First of all, he obeyed God without sin even unto his death on the cross, and although I cannot know how this relates to the difference, he was spiritually separated from God, as he was dying.

Although others may have died what may seem to be a death with greater suffering, no, it is not the same. God was with them in this death. They did not suffer for the sins of the whole world.

And Jesus did not endure this suffering because of what was promised to him, but he did it to glorify God, and because it was the only way that humanity could be reconciled to God.

God has promised to use me as a Bishop or overseer in the church in these last days, and I am having to endure persecution, rejection, and insults, as He prepares me for this position, but I do not endure what I am having to go through because of this esteem that this position would give me in the church, but because he has shown me that my family would be saved, my son is not there yet, and because of those who God will save through me, and He has shown me that he would bring the church into unity through me.

And so, although he has promised me this high position in the church, it is not about me and that position, but about what God will do through me for the good of the church. I may also have to endure the death of a Martyr, but God will see me through it if I do.

Jesus endured the cross “for the joy that was ahead”, forseeing all that would be saved by virtue of his sacrifice.

Love in Christ,
Marty

September 27, 2013 at 9:13 pm#358854

terraricca

Participant

Marty

Quote

Jesus endured the cross “for the joy that was ahead”, forseeing all that would be saved by virtue of his sacrifice.

wen you talk about “THE CHURCH ” you are talking about “THE LATER DAYS SAINTS ” (YOUR OWN CHURCH)not Christ church of the 144k right

wen you say “and because of those who God will save through me,” but this is also true to anyone in any so called Christian religion and especially the JW,

so what you preach belong to the denomination you practice in ;right this is also why your church as different views than the JW right yes and this is true for all other denominations, SO WHAT THEY PREACH HIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THEIR OWN BELIEVERS ,NOT FOR CHRIST ,

I MEAN TO SAY THAT THE FIRST CHURCH WHERE SENDING THE BELIEVERS TO CHRIST AND HIS FATHER ,NEVER TO A SEGREGATED CHURCH THAT WOULD HAVE THEIR OWN VIEWS ON WHAT COULD BE DONE OR NOT DONE ,AND HAVE LEADERS TO GATHER THE SPOILS ,

I AD BECOME A BELIEVER BY READING THE SCRIPTURES AND BELIEVING THEM ,IT ALWAYS PUZZLES ME HOW IS IT THAT SOME ONE CAN BECOME A TRUE BELIEVER BY BELIEVING THE MAN MADE CHURCH AND DOGMA AND RULES ;BEATS ME ,.

I WHICH TO UNDERSTAND THAT

September 28, 2013 at 6:29 am#358892

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 28 2013,05:48)

Hi Wakeup:

It was in God's wisdom, that Jesus would be conceived by the Holy Ghost and be born into this world, and that he would obey God without sin even unto death on the cross.

Quote

Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 2:17

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Eph 2:18

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty.

Please answer straight to questions.
1. Are you saying;that Jesus existence started on earth?

2.Are you saying that God's Word is nothing more than words spoken?

3,Are you saying that that God was alone in
genesis 3:22. when he said *US*.

4. John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, ***I SAID***, Ye are gods?
Dont you believe Jesus comment; when he said:
*I SAID*

5. How can he speak in genesis,before he was born?

6.I am the resurrection,and *I am the life*
*I am* that bread that came down from heaven.
We are to eath *his flesh*;not Gods flesh.

He who called upon *my name* shall be saved.
Not God's name; but Jesus name.Let all the angels worship him.(Jesus).
And you say he is not God?
You say God's Word are just his sayings?

wakeup.

September 28, 2013 at 4:52 pm#358940

Blocked

Wakeup,

8th post on page 23?

September 28, 2013 at 4:57 pm#358941

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 27 2013,14:38)

……..he was spiritually separated from God, as he was dying.

Why do you think that?

September 28, 2013 at 6:29 pm#358944

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2013,03:57)

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 27 2013,14:38)

……..he was spiritually separated from God, as he was dying.

Why do you think that?

Mike:

Because to die a death by being crucified represented his dying accursed or separated from God, he was accused of blasphemy, and since all of humanity have sinned and will have died separated from God, he has paid this judgment in the place of every person that has lived.

When he was dying, he said the following:

Quote

Mat 27:46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Love in Christ,
Marty

September 28, 2013 at 6:56 pm#358946

terraricca

Participant

Marty

do you find hard to answer me

September 28, 2013 at 7:45 pm#358949

Participant

Hi Wakeup:

You said:

Marty.

Please answer straight to questions

Quote

1. Are you saying;that Jesus existence started on earth?

As a sentient person, that is a person with a mind, a will, and emotions, yes that is what I am saying.

Quote

2.Are you saying that God's Word is nothing more than words spoken?

God's Word are Word's that have been spoken by Him to His creation, but they may intended to communicate different things to us. For example, it may be prophecy, which tells us of future events to come or his words may convey the gospel message, or they may instructions to us His children in how to live our lives to be in right standing with him. It is through His Word that he has spoken to us that we have seen His character, and it is through His Word that we can become like Him, when we apply his instructions to our daily lives.

Quote

3,Are you saying that that God was alone in
genesis 3:22. when he said *US*.

No, he was not alone. When he said “us” in that scripture, I believe that he was speaking to the angels because of the following scripture:

(Speaking to Job, God said)

Job 38:2

Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3

Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Job 38:4

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding

Job 38:5

Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6

Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Quote

4. John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, ***I SAID***, Ye are gods?
Dont you believe Jesus comment; when he said:
*I SAID*

He is not saying that “he said those words”, he is just quoting what is written in psalm 82:

Psa 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Quote

5. How can he speak in genesis,before he was born?

He didn't. This is answered in the question above.

Quote

6.I am the resurrection,and *I am the life*
*I am* that bread that came down from heaven.
We are to eath *his flesh*;not Gods flesh

Because he was the vessel, through whom God was speaking to humanity in these last days. He obeyed God's Word unto death on the cross.

Jhn 6:32

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Jhn 6:33

For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Jhn 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Jhn 12:44

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

Jhn 12:45

And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Jhn 12:46

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Jhn 12:47

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Jhn 12:48

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jhn 12:49

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jhn 12:50

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Quote

He who called upon *my name* shall be saved.
Not God's name; but Jesus name.Let all the angels worship him.(Jesus).
And you say he is not God?
You say God's Word are just his sayings?

The name “Jesus” means “YHWH is salvation”. Have you not read John 3:16-18. It was God who gave us Jesus, and God who exalted him to the position as head of the church. But he did obey God without sin unto death on the cross, and the only way to be saved is through him. I have already explained that the word “worship” can mean to show reverence for a king, and Jesus said he was “the Son of God” and he said that he was not God.

As for who we are to worship as God, Jesus in speaking to the Samaritan woman said the following:

Jhn 4:21

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Jhn 4:23

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jhn 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

I have already answered your question about the God's Word being, your statement, not mine, being “only the saying of God”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

September 28, 2013 at 7:48 pm#358950