1 Timothy 3:16

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January 25, 2013 at 4:01 am#333220

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1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This scripture infers that Jesus is God. Although you could argue that even we should manifest God in our lives knowing full well we are not God. Regardless, this verse is certainly a verse that Trinitarians use as a proof verse, and to the untrained eye, they may well accept that Jesus is God based on this.

But is this all there is to this matter.

Apparently this verse is controversial because most other translations do not say “God was manifest in the flesh”, rather they say “He was manifest in the flesh”.

So what is going on. Why does the KJV say 'God' and most other translations say 'He'?

I found this explanation and thought it would be helpful to share it. I will make it the next post. Needless to say, expect the Trinitarians to argue that “God manifest in the flesh” is the correct translation, meaning that they believe that the KJV got it right, while most others are wrong.

January 25, 2013 at 4:02 am#333221

Proclaimer

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http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080728123800AALVzER

Thank you so much for this question. It is a very interesting one.

A few weeks ago, I inquired of a Greek translator who often posts on this site, asking him this very same thing. He kindly and carefully explained to me that, first off, one must understand the nomina sacra (sacred names). He explained that these are abbreviations, in early manuscripts, of certain names and titles.

In ancient manuscripts 1 Timothy 3:16 had the word “os” which looks like: “OC” and means “he”.

The nomina sacra of God looks like OC but it has a horizontal line through the middle of the O and a long horizontal line over both letters (as Abernathy, above, explained).

The Greek translator continues, and I quote: “In one old manuscript (Codex Alexandrinus) it seems to the nomina sacra, but an analysis of the manuscript demonstrated that the two horizontal lines were added centuries later.

Many late manuscripts have the nomina sacra, but all manuscripts earlier than about 800AD have OC “He”

So “He was manifest in the flesh” is supported by all the most ancient manuscripts, “God was manifest in the flesh” has no attestation before 800 AD.”

End quote.

Hannah J Paul

January 25, 2013 at 5:39 am#333222

terraricca

Participant

1Ti 3:12 A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
1Ti 3:13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 3:14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that,
1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1Ti 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: ACCORDING TO THE CONTEXT PAUL TALK ABOUT BEHAVIOR AS A CHRISTIAN
He appeared in a body, ;PAUL REFERS TO THE EXAMPLE JESUS CHRIST TO BE THE EXAMPLE FOR ALL GODLY FOLLOWERS,
was vindicated by the Spirit, AND YES CHRIST WAS VINDICATED BY ALL HE TEACHES AND ALSO HIS HUMBLENESS ,
was seen by angels, TRUE
was preached among the nations,PAUL HERE SHOWS THAT THE WORDS OF THE GOSPEL WERE PREACH TO ALL NATION
was believed on in the world, HERE PAUL MENTION THAT MANY HAD BELIEVED THE MESSAGE,ABOUT CHRIST
was taken up in glory. AND YES CHRIST WAS TAKEN UP TO HEAVEN

IN THE CONTEXT THAT FOLLOW WE CAN SEE THAT WHAT IT MEANS IS CLOSE TO WHAT I MENTION

1Ti 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
1Ti 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

I add my comment in capitals

January 25, 2013 at 6:22 am#333223

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 25 2013,14:01)

But is this all there is to this matter.

Apparently this verse is controversial because most other translations do not say “God was manifest in the flesh”, rather they say “He was manifest in the flesh”.

So what is going on. Why does the KJV say 'God' and most other translations say 'He'?

T8.

Please consider.
It says God manifest in the flesh; meaning God operating in the flesh, through his son.
GOD WAS SPEAKING HIS WORDS THROUGH JESUS
WHAT MY FATHER TELL ME TO SAY THAT I SAY.WHAT MY FATHER TELL ME TO DO,THAT I DO.

MANIFEST IN THE FLESH; NOT MADE FLESH.

wakeup.

January 25, 2013 at 7:54 am#333224

Proclaimer

Participant

wakeup, I mention that possibility in my post.

But is the word “theos” in that scripture in any manuscript before 800 AD?

If not, then it is a likely addition wouldn't you say?

January 25, 2013 at 9:10 am#333225

kerwin

Participant

T8,

The conclusion that 1 Timothy 3:16 is speaking of Jesus seems absurd when the explicit subject is “the mystery of godliness”. Ancient Greek is not like English and so has genders for both its nouns and pronouns. Any use of gender in a translation is subject to the translators' discretion and may or may not be correct.

I have been taught other places that Jesus is the Pioneer and Finisher of godliness.

The only words that solidly hint at Jesus being “the mystery of godliness” are “received up into glory”

The order is incorrect for Jesus as he was not preached to the Gentiles or believed in the World until after he ascended.

'seen of angels' is a mystery if speaking of Jesus unless you believe he was not visible to them until after God was manifest in his flesh.

T8 makes a good case for “he' or 'it' being the correct word. I am not even sure “she” is out of the picture due to lack of complete knowledge of Ancient Greek.

January 25, 2013 at 9:39 am#333226

Proclaimer

Participant

Also from here:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080728123800AALVzER

“GOD was manifest in the flesh” is not found in the earliest manuscripts. It actually occurs quite late in the extant Greek manuscripts. So the modern refined master texts, such as Westcott and Hort or Nestle-Aland, prefer the earlier readings. Most modern Bible translations are based on these master texts.

Changing “which” (“He”) to “God” in the Greek required just a small dash. “Which” was “OC” in the Greek, whereas “God” was “ΘC.” Was this a mistake? Or was it a Catholic scholar trying to “clarify” this text, trying to “help” the Bible explain his treasured Trinity doctrine?

Why is the faulty reading in the King James Version? Because it was a translation which was produced when Europe still hadn't completely emerged from the Dark Ages, whose translation committee still thought blood-letting was a pretty neat idea.

January 25, 2013 at 9:55 am#333227

jammin

Participant

you are not even a bible scholar t8. you can say that but that is not THE ONLY VERSE in the bible that proves CHRIST is God.

kerwin's favorite version is the KJV NKJV and it says in 1 tim 3.16 that Christ is God.
although kerwin does not believe this truth bec he wants imagination LOL

read codex sinaiticus
it says in john 20.28 that JESUS is THOMAS's LORD AND GOD

28 Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.

there is nothing wrong in 1 tim 3.16 bec Christ is really God according to paul, thomas etc.

Christians believe that the son is like the father. they have the same nature, God

January 25, 2013 at 10:10 am#333228

Proclaimer

Participant

Sorry jammin, but this will ruffle your Trinitarian feathers. (Not sure if you are one, but looks like it from your comment). And with a comment like that, it is easier to understand the Dark Ages.

I don't need to be a scholar to understand a mistake or a deceptive addition when I read about the facts. And I take it you are not a scholar either, so by your own standard you are unworthy to understand such things.

As for Thomas declaration, it can equally be Thomas talking about his Lord and then his God.

Remember, “For us there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ”.

So it could well be that the he was giving glory to the son and then to the Father. And why wouldn't you.

And if you think this is impossible, then know that it is grammatically correct, and there is a double use of the definite article too. What is that?

Basically Thomas said My Lord and My God which can refer to two, when he could have just said, My Lord and God.

And if you think that Thomas would never mention the Father with the son, then why is the Bible full of praise to God AND Jesus.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

January 25, 2013 at 10:11 am#333229

Proclaimer

Participant

Here are some typical salutations that include God the Father and Jesus his son.

So is it possible that Thomas would do the same?

1Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Corinthians 1:2-3
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Ephesians 1:2 (English-NIV)
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 6:23 (English-NIV)
Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:2 (English-NIV)
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 4:19-20 (English-NIV)
19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.
20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:2-3 (English-NIV)
2 To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.
3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

1 Thessalonians 1:1 (English-NIV)
Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you.

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2 (English-NIV)
1 Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:2 (English-NIV)
To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 (English-NIV)
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Philemon 1:3 (English-NIV)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 John 1:3 (English-NIV)
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.

Jude 1:1 (English-KJV)
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:

January 25, 2013 at 10:23 am#333230

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 25 2013,17:54)

wakeup, I mention that possibility in my post.

But is the word “theos” in that scripture in any manuscript before 800 AD?

If not, then it is a likely addition wouldn't you say?

Hi t8.

I am not aware or any manuscript before 8oo ad.

But I can not see anything in that scripture indicating that God was in the flesh.

He was operating through his son, of whom he made flesh.

wakeup.

January 25, 2013 at 12:40 pm#333231

jammin

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 25 2013,20:10)