1 John 5.20 – Christ is not the true God?

Viewing 20 posts - 221 through 240 (of 1,982 total)
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  • #286235
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,16:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,15:40)
    Hi Ed,
    Acts 11.15f
    ” And the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon at the beginning.. And I remmbered the word of the Lord, how he used to say
    'John baptised with water , but you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit”


    Hi Nick, now I see where you going.

    In Acts 10:43-47, you “should” be able to see
    that water baptism is UNNECESSARY. (1Cor.1:14-16)
    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through
    his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the HolySpirit fell on all them which heard the word.
    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles
    also was poured out the gift of the HolySpirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the HolySpirit as well as we?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Ed,
    You may disagree with the actions of all the apostles in Acts and decide water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is unnecessary for you but you are stating that you are sinless as Jesus was.

    It is for the forgiveness of sin.

    Peter baptised Cornelius in water.

    #286237
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2012,16:18)
    “You are the Christ. You are the Son of the living God.”


    Hi Jammin,

    Those are two ideas, not the same idea. I'll give you an example…
    “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness
    of Jesus, and for “The Word”(Ho Logos) of God,” (Rev 20:4)

    Clearly two different things!

    1. for the witness of Jesus
    2. for “The Word” of God

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #286238
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED,
    Those who are beheaded are led by the head of the Body on earth-Jesus Christ.

    #286241
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,16:52)
    I'm not trying to disprove or prove anything here.


    Hi David,    …I see you're learning!    …glad I could help!

    Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us,
    that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #286242
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,16:54)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,16:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,15:40)
    Hi Ed,
    Acts 11.15f
    ” And the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon at the beginning.. And I remmbered the word of the Lord, how he used to say
    'John baptised with water , but you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit”


    Hi Nick, now I see where you going.

    In Acts 10:43-47, you “should” be able to see
    that water baptism is UNNECESSARY. (1Cor.1:14-16)
    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through
    his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the HolySpirit fell on all them which heard the word.
    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles
    also was poured out the gift of the HolySpirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the HolySpirit as well as we?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Ed,
    You may disagree with the actions of all the apostles in Acts and decide water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is unnecessary for you but you are stating that you are sinless as Jesus was.

    It is for the forgiveness of sin.

    Peter baptised Cornelius in water.


    Hi Nick, I don't forbid water baptism either.

    “God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness
    for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” (Romans 3:25)
    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name
    whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #286243
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED
    You quote 1 Cor 1.14 as evidence water baptism is unnecessary??

    Paul wants no part in responsibility for those who are confused and divided in the congregation.
    There are far more difficult and important roles to fulfill in the body of Christ, and he did them. He preached and taught.

    Any neophyte can baptise.

    #286245
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,17:11)
    Hi ED
    You quote 1 Cor 1.14 as evidence water baptism is unnecessary??


    Hi Nick,

    Yes, and also In Acts 10:43-47.

    Ans see also my last post for even more evidence.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #286263
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,17:11)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,16:54)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,16:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,15:40)
    Hi Ed,
    Acts 11.15f
    ” And the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon at the beginning.. And I remmbered the word of the Lord, how he used to say
    'John baptised with water , but you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit”


    Hi Nick, now I see where you going.

    In Acts 10:43-47, you “should” be able to see
    that water baptism is UNNECESSARY. (1Cor.1:14-16)
    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through
    his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the HolySpirit fell on all them which heard the word.
    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles
    also was poured out the gift of the HolySpirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the HolySpirit as well as we?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Ed,
    You may disagree with the actions of all the apostles in Acts and decide water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is unnecessary for you but you are stating that you are sinless as Jesus was.

    It is for the forgiveness of sin.

    Peter baptised Cornelius in water.


    Hi Nick, I don't forbid water baptism either.

    “God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness
    for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” (Romans 3:25)
    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name
    whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi ED,
    What does BELIEVE really mean?

    Intellectual acceptance?

    Were there any in ACTS who having BELIEVED were NOT baptised in water?

    If not why not?

    Has anything changed?

    #286266
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that
    God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth
    unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” (Rom.10:9-10)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #286267
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #286279
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,16:52)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2012,16:22)

    Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,15:52)
    From the Greek, it seems to break down like this:

    1 John 5:20

    We have known     but     that    the     Son     of the     God      is come      and     he has given      to us    mental perception     in order that      we are knowing     the    true (one)      and      we are     in      the     true (one)    in    the    Son    of him      to Jesus     Christ       This (one)      is    the    true    God    and    life    everlasting

    It bugs me a little that these verses are always the ones that can so easily be understood in 2 completely different ways.  

    Is Jesus the true one?
    Or did Jesus give us the ability to know the true one (God)?

    This verse really comes down to who you think the true one is.  If you think it's Jesus, then this is proof that Jesus is God.
    If you think it's saying that Jesus told us who the true one (God) is, then this verse is saying that this true one (God) is the true God and life everlasting.

    So, it's not great proof for anything.  Of course, we can find Bible translations that we prefer that make the interpretation lean one way or the other.  But that is not proof of anything.


    even if you post greek translation here.
    it does not prove that Christ is not the true in 1 john 5.20

    what we can read is that the father is the true GOD
    Christ is also the True GOD!

    means they have same nature, GOD!

    Christ is GOD!
    1 John 5:20

    20 We also know that the Son of God has come. He has given us understanding. Now we can know the One who is true. And we belong to the One who is true. We also belong to his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God. He is eternal life.


    I'm not trying to disprove or prove anything here.

    I know that cannot be done either way with this scripture.

    I am merely pointing out that this is a bad scripture to base something like this on, since it can so easily be understood in more than one way.

    “We are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. THIS is the true God and life everlasting.”

    Who is “THIS” referring to?

    You think that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (hou′tos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ.

    But some believe that the most natural reference of hou′tos is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle–God.

    Haupt makes a good point: “A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”

    Even A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Hou′tos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21).”

    Often hou′tos, generally translated “this” or “this one,” does not refer to the immediately preceding subject of a phrase. Other scriptures illustrate the point. At 2 John 7, the same apostle and penman of the first letter wrote: “Many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This [hou′tos′] is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Here the pronoun cannot refer to the closest antecedent—Jesus. Obviously, “this” refers to those who denied Jesus. They collectively are “the deceiver and the antichrist.”

    The apostle John wrote: “Andrew the brother of Simon Peter was one of the two that heard what John said and followed Jesus. First this one [hou′tos] found his own brother, Simon.” (John 1:40, 41) It is evident that “this one” refers, not to the last person mentioned, but to Andrew. At 1 John 2:22, the apostle uses the same pronoun in a similar way.

    Luke makes similar use of the pronoun, as seen at Acts 4:10, 11: “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This [hou′tos′] is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’” The pronoun “this” clearly does not refer to the man who was healed, though he is the one mentioned just before hou′tos. Certainly, “this” in verse 11 refers to Jesus Christ the Nazarene, who is the “cornerstone” on which the Christian congregation is founded.—Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:4-8.
    Acts 7:18, 19 also illustrates the point: “There rose a different king over Egypt, who did not know of Joseph. This one [hou′tos] used statecraft against our race.” “This one” who oppressed the Jews was, not Joseph, but Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.

    Such passages confirm the observation made by Greek scholar Daniel Wallace, who says that for Greek demonstratives, “what might be the nearest antecedent contextually might not be the nearest antecedent in the author’s mind.”

    SO, IT DOESN'T MATTER that the name Jesus was closest to the “this.”  It matters what was on the mind of the writer.


    the mind of the writer says that the father is the true GOD
    the son is also called the true GOD.

    believe it or not.

    no verse that says that christ is not GOD.

    you cant read any verse in the bible that christ said “i am NOT GOD”

    what we can read is Christ is GOD! truly GOD! he became flesh!

    #286280
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,17:00)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2012,16:18)
    “You are the Christ. You are the Son of the living God.”


    Hi Jammin,

    Those are two ideas, not the same idea. I'll give you an example…
    “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness
    of Jesus, and for “The Word”(Ho Logos) of God,” (Rev 20:4)

    Clearly two different things!

    1. for the witness of Jesus
    2. for “The Word” of God

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    read well mat 16.16

    Χριστός,n \{}
    1) the Son of God 2) anointed

    #286281
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    It's nice to see you are trying to learn. That is a sign of maturity.
    As you can see “Son” is NOT one of the definitions! Please take note.

    (G-5547)  Χριστός, οῦ, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: Christos
    Phonetic Spelling: (khris-tos')
    Short Definition: Anointed One, the Messiah, the Christ
    Definition: Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #286283
    jammin
    Participant

    that is one of the meaning of the term Christ.

    i am not saying that the anointed is not the meaning of christ

    what i am saying is Christ also means Son of GOD!

    Χριστός,n \{}
    1) the Son of God 2) anointed

    study the verse well mat 16.16

    #286288
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    Christ “IS” the “Son of God”, but Christ
    DOES NOT MEAN “Son of God”; sorry.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #286294
    jammin
    Participant

    believe it or not.

    peter said that
    16and Simon Peter answering said, `Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

    #286318
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    Peter said it and it's correct, but that doesn't change
    THE FACT that Christ DOES NOT MEAN “Son of God”.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #286321
    jammin
    Participant

    it is your opinion.

    i believe what peter said that he is the Christ, the SON OF GOD!

    #286338
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 21 2012,00:04)
    i believe what peter said that he is the Christ, the SON OF GOD!


    Hi Jammin,

    I believe that as well! …but that doesn't change
    THE FACT that Christ DOES NOT MEAN “Son of God”.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #286361
    jammin
    Participant

    mat 16.16 clearly proves that Christ means the son of GOD!
    he is the Christ, the son of GOD!

    praise GOD!:D

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