Trinity Debate Zechariah 12:10

Subject:  Zechariah 12:10 proves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: April 22 2007
Debaters:  Is 1: 18 & t8

 


Is 1:18

Okay short and sweet this time….

In the below passage Zechariah records a quite amazing prophecy:

Zechariah 12:10
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

What’s significant (in the context of this debate submission) about the highlighted statement above is that the preceding verses (1, 4, 6 and 9) unmistakably bear out that it was a prophecy made by YHWH, and would be fulfilled by YHWH. YHWH foretold that they (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) will look upon “Me” whom they (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) pierced.

Zechariah 12:1-9
1The burden of the word of the LORD [YHWH] concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD [YHWH] who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2″Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3″It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4″In that day,” declares the LORD [YHWH], “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5″Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.’ 6″In that day I [YHWH] will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7″The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8″In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9″And in that day I [YHWH] will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

There is no mention of a secondary identity in the Zechariah’s predictive prophecy. The “me” in “they will look on Me whom they have pierced” is YHWH. In the immediately-preceding verse YHWH affirmed “I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem”, which of course only the Almighty could accomplish. With that in mind, please consider Who it was that John taught fulfilled this prophecy:

John 19:33-37
33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

According to John, Zechariah 10:12 is a predictive reference to the piercing (vs 34) incurred by Yeshua during His crucifixion (“For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture” – v 36). Let me be as clear as I can here t8: Only YHWH could fulfill this prophecy, because it was made specifically by YHWH (through Zechariah) and of YHWH. It cannot be fulfilled by proxy, the piercing was to be incurred by YHWH and it is YHWH that would be looked upon. No one else, the language in the Zechariah text is unambiguous and does not allow for it. John unequivocally tells us that Yeshua literally fulfilled the Zech 12:10 prophecy at Calvary, but crucially He fulfilled it after His body had expired (v 33). The Roman soldiers and other bystanders (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) looked upon His lifeless body, but John and Zechariah tell us that this was the body of YHWH. So, the obvious implication here is: even His dead body was considered utterly divine, it was the body of YHWH. So any argument linking Yeshua’s deity with His indwelling by the Holy Spirit is vaporised in this verse.

If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yahshua fulfills it, then He is YHWH. There is no other acceptable conclusion.

Now some questions for you t8:

Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.

Q2) According to John’s inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.

Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?

Blessings



t8

Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.

I think the ME is YHWH. The one who is to be pierced (HIM) is Yeshua.

It says “…They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child,…”

Grammatically, the “Me” and the “him” cannot refer to the same individual can it.

It is clearly talking about 2, not 1. Otherwise it would say: “They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for ME as one mourns for an only child,”. Of course it doesn’t say that, so the “him” is obviously different to the “me”.

Q2) According to John’s inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.

Is Yeshua the ME or the HIM? I say he is the HIM. If Yeshua was both, then the language would use ME or HIM, but not both.

Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?

YHWH didn’t make this prophecy about himself from what I can see. We know that YHWH is not a man and he doesn’t have bones and blood. It is rediculous to believe that God whom the universe cannot contain squeezed himself into a human body. Rather, it was the Word that became flesh and the apostles beheld his glory as the son of God. Even if YHWH did make the prophecy about himself, we know that YHWH sent his son and it was YHWH’s will that his son drink the cup that was prepared for him. So if YHWH was in Christ, then to that degree was YHWH the one being punished. But Christ did say “My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me”.

But the way it appears to me on the outset is that they would look to YHWH, because of the HIM who was pierced.

NOTE: My rebuttal is based on the English version of these verses. It is possible that the English version may not be that clear or even accurate. If this is the case, then a more accurate version of the Zechariah verse could change what I have written.

Anyway, it is interesting to note that John 19:33-37 also refers to another prophecy i.e., NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.”
When we look at that prophecy, we see clearly that the YHWH (LORD) is one and the one whom not a bone shall be broken is another.

It is obvious to all that the bolded verses below are either or both Yeshua and YHWH. But the interesting part is that we cannot confuse Yeshua with actually being YHWH.

Psalm 22:1-19
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

“He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother’s breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

So we have 3 reasons why YHWH cannot be Yeshua in Zech 12:10.

  1. Me and Him cannot be the same individual grammatically speaking.
  2. Psalm 22:1-19 the other quoted scripture by John, clearly indentifies Yeshua and YHWH as different identities.
  3. There is no contradiction in truth.
 

So an explanation that fits with John, Zechariah, and David (or Psalm writer) is that YHWH and Yeshua are 2 different identities and because of him who was pierced (Yeshua), people would look to YHWH (his God). This has come to pass as many now look to YHWH because of Yeshua’s sacrifice. See the below verse as an immediate example of fulfillment.

Acts 2:36-39
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”


Discussion

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  • #50124
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Closed until t8 posts.

    #51508
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.

    I think the ME is YHWH. The one who is to be pierced (HIM) is Yeshua.

    It says “…They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child,…”

    Grammatically, the “Me” and the “him” cannot refer to the same individual can it.

    It is clearly talking about 2, not 1. Otherwise it would say: “They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for ME as one mourns for an only child,”. Of course it doesn't say that, so the “him” is obviously different to the “me”.


    Q2) According to John's inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.

    Is Yeshua the ME or the HIM? I say he is the HIM. If Yeshua was both, then the language would use ME or HIM, but not both.


    Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?

    YHWH didn't make this prophecy about himself from what I can see. We know that YHWH is not a man and he doesn't have bones and blood. It is rediculous to believe that God whom the universe cannot contain squeezed himself into a human body. Rather, it was the Word that became flesh and the apostles beheld his glory as the son of God. Even if YHWH did make the prophecy about himself, we know that YHWH sent his son and it was YHWH's will that his son drink the cup that was prepared for him. So if YHWH was in Christ, then to that degree was YHWH the one being punished. But Christ did say “My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me”.

    But the way it appears to me on the outset is that they would look to YHWH, because of the HIM who was pierced.


    NOTE: My rebuttal is based on the English version of these verses. It is possible that the English version may not be that clear or even accurate. If this is the case, then a more accurate version of the Zechariah verse could change what I have written.

    Anyway, it is interesting to note that John 19:33-37 also refers to another prophecy i.e., NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.”
    When we look at that prophecy, we see clearly that the YHWH (LORD) is one and the one whom not a bone shall be broken is another.

    It is obvious to all that the bolded verses below are either or both Yeshua and YHWH. But the interesting part is that we cannot confuse Yeshua with actually being YHWH.

    Psalm 22:1-19
    1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
    Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from the words of my groaning?

    2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
    by night, and am not silent.

    3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the praise of Israel.

    4 In you our fathers put their trust;
    they trusted and you delivered them.

    5 They cried to you and were saved;
    in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

    6 But I am a worm and not a man,
    scorned by men and despised by the people.

    7 All who see me mock me;
    they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

    8 “He trusts in the LORD;
    let the LORD rescue him.
    Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”

    9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
    you made me trust in you
    even at my mother's breast.

    10 From birth I was cast upon you;
    from my mother's womb you have been my God.

    11 Do not be far from me,
    for trouble is near
    and there is no one to help.

    12 Many bulls surround me;
    strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

    13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
    open their mouths wide against me.

    14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
    My heart has turned to wax;
    it has melted away within me.

    15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
    and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
    you lay me in the dust of death.

    16 Dogs have surrounded me;
    a band of evil men has encircled me,
    they have pierced my hands and my feet.

    17 I can count all my bones;
    people stare and gloat over me.

    18 They divide my garments among them
    and cast lots for my clothing.

    19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
    O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

    So we have 3 reasons why YHWH cannot be Yeshua in Zech 12:10.

    1. Me and Him cannot be the same individual grammatically speaking.
    2. Psalm 22:1-19 the other quoted scripture by John, clearly indentifies Yeshua and YHWH as different identities.
    3. There is no contradiction in truth.

    So an explanation that fits with John, Zechariah, and David (or Psalm writer) is that YHWH and Yeshua are 2 different identities and because of him who was pierced (Yeshua), people would look to YHWH (his God). This has come to pass as many now look to YHWH because of Yeshua's sacrifice. See the below verse as an immediate example of fulfillment.

    Acts 2:36-39
    36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
    38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

    #51515
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    (Notice that the words “his” “son” and “his” are in italics and were supplied by the translators and do not belong.)

    t8

    Quote
    I think the ME is YHWH. The one who is to be pierced (HIM) is Yeshua.

    It says “…They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child,…”

    Grammatically, the “Me” and the “him” cannot refer to the same individual can it.

    It is clearly talking about 2, not 1. Otherwise it would say: “They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for ME as one mourns for an only child,”. Of course it doesn't say that, so the “him” is obviously different to the “me”.

    t8. Again your words which sounds like you are unsure

    Quote
    I think the ME is YHWH.

    So it seem that you agree YHWH (Jehovah) is the “Me”.

    Let us see how this fits leaving out the uninspired words “his” “son” and “his” .

    Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for only, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for firstborn.

    t8 look again;  this time with your eyes open!

    and they shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced

    The rest of this verse whatever its translation cannot grammatically change this phrase.

    and they shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced

    t8. You yourself said that “me” refers to YHWH (Jehovah)

    t8. Don't play around with words. It is very clear that Jehovah ( Jesus) was the One who was pierced.

    Instead of fighting the truth, repent of your sin and accept Jesus Christ as your God and Saviour.

    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Joh 19:33  but when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
    Joh 19:34  howbeit one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and straightway there came out blood and water.
    Joh 19:35  And he that hath seen hath borne witness, and his witness is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye also may believe.
    Joh 19:36  For these things came to pass, that the scripture might be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
    Joh 19:37  And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

    Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.    :O

    #51529
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18, CB and t8,
    Ps 22 refers only to the piercing of the hands and feet and it is the piercing of the side of Christ that is shown in Jn 19 as being relevant here.
    I believe the one who is pierced is identified positively as Jesus in Jn 19

    33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

    34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

    35And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

    36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

    37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

    So the Lord God pours out His Spirit and by this Spirit the Jewish people will be able to have the veil taken from in front of their eyes and they will recognise the Son of God and they will mourn for him.

    So in my opinion both ME and HIM refer to Christ. There is no justification for drawing conclusions from this that the God Who pours of His Spirit is the one Who was pierced or that there are two gods.

    Note in Jn which QUOTES Zechariah,
    that it does not say ME
    but HIM.

    #51537
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ May 07 2007,20:15)
    t8. Again your words which sounds like you are unsure


    I say it like this because I am not sure if the translation is completely accurate. If it is, then it appears to be YHWH.

    I am wisely compensating for this.

    Imagine if I said it is without any doubt and later found that the translation actually says …

    I would look a little foolish wouldn't I?

    Paul often spoke like this too.

    The Lord says… I say….

    There is nothing wrong with that.

    When I say.. it should be the wisdom that God has given me. When God says… It is what God says.

    I am not saying “thus says the LORD” in my post. I am reading it honestly and saying what it appears to say, while making sure that it doesn't violate other scripture.

    #51572
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ May 07 2007,01:15)
    t8. Don't play around with words. It is very clear that Jehovah ( Jesus) was the One who was pierced.

    Instead of fighting the truth, repent of your sin and accept Jesus Christ as your God and Saviour.


    Quite right CB,
    The His/me argument is a red herring. The point is YHWH prophesied that He would be peirced and Yeshua fulfilled it!

    Q) Did YHWH declare, using the first person singular pronoun “me”, in Zechariah 12:10 that He would be “pierced” and “looked upon”?

    A) Yes. (t8 has conceded to this)

    Q)If YHWH makes an unconditional prophecy, will it come to pass?

    A) Yes. YHWH cannot lie (Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18).

    Q) Has this prophecy come to pass?

    A) Yes.

    Q) When?

    A) On the cross, at Calvary. Yeshua fulfilled it (John 19:37).

    Q) So….can this prophecy be fulfilled by proxy?

    A) No. That would impute a lie to YHWH. But YHWH cannot lie. Therefore Yeshua MUST BE YHWH.

    T8 has completely skirted around this dilemma. But it hasn't gone unnoticed.

    :)

    #51573
    Kyle
    Participant

    I find this quite interesting. T8's view of this verse troubles me a bit. I don't see how it's grammatically impossible for it to refer to YHWH as the one being pierced. That seems to me to be the most plain understanding of this scripture. It does seem a bit odd that the one speaking would say “me” and then “him”, but take John 17:3 for instance:

    “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    Christ speaks of himself in the third person here – at least in most of today's english translations. You obviously can't use logic in this case to prove that the one speaking isn't Jesus Christ.

    Anyway, I just found that interesting.

    #51575
    charity
    Participant

    The same question asked in acts by the eunuch; Is The prophet specking of Himself or some other Man?

    Act 8:34  And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

    The conversation is based around Elijah remembering that chariot THAT TOOK HIM TO THE HEAVENS?; Knowing that he also was born of woman into the world again as John Baptist the Angel that prepares the way of the Lord Jesus Christ was of the fathers a Prophet becoming the child again

    The EUNUCH AND PHILIP
    Act 8:27  And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,  Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.  Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?  And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.  And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

    Elijah dose not prophecy Himself returning?

    As this Isa is said 'He'
    Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.  

    David dose talk as of his own peircing
    Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed “me” the assembly of the wicked have inclosed “me” they pierced my hands and my feet.

    But any way Philip commands the chariot to stand still while the eunuch is baptized; and Philip disappears Just even  almost like Christ Did by the spirit??

    Who is philip the incorruptable?

    Act 8:38  And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.  And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

    charity

    #51577
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi charity,
    Prophets becoming children??
    The Spirit of Prophecy is the important issue not David or Elijah who are just vessels for glory.

    #51578
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2007,22:18)
    Hi charity,
    Prophets becoming children??
    The Spirit of Prophecy is the important issue not David or Elijah who are just vessels for glory.


    But I can inform you this is the promise written to the fathers that perished;Their New Life hidden in christ
    THIS GENERATION HAS BECOME LOVERS OF self only

    Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
    Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    Mal 4:2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

    #51579
    charity
    Participant

    And to top it off I guess you don't beleive God is powerful enough to transport seed to another age

    By Resurrection of Life

    Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must “prophesy again” before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

    Eze 3:1 ¶ Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat [it]; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. ¶ And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them. For thou [art] not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, [but] to the house of Israel; Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.

    Ezekiel transported by the spirit
    Eze 3:11 And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.
    Eze 3:12 ¶ Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, [saying], Blessed [be] the glory of the LORD from his place.
    also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing.
    So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me. Then I came to them of the captivity at Telabib, that dwelt by the river of Chebar, and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.
    ¶ And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
    When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    #51597

    Quote (Kyle @ May 07 2007,20:03)
    I find this quite interesting.  T8's view of this verse troubles me a bit.  I don't see how it's grammatically impossible for it to refer to YHWH as the one being pierced.  That seems to me to be the most plain understanding of this scripture.  It does seem a bit odd that the one speaking would say “me” and then “him”, but take John 17:3 for instance:

    “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    Christ speaks of himself in the third person here – at least in most of today's english translations.  You obviously can't use logic in this case to prove that the one speaking isn't Jesus Christ.

    Anyway, I just found that interesting.


    Kyle

    Good point!

    :(

    #51598

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2007,08:48)

    Quote (Kyle @ May 07 2007,20:03)
    I find this quite interesting.  T8's view of this verse troubles me a bit.  I don't see how it's grammatically impossible for it to refer to YHWH as the one being pierced.  That seems to me to be the most plain understanding of this scripture.  It does seem a bit odd that the one speaking would say “me” and then “him”, but take John 17:3 for instance:

    “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    Christ speaks of himself in the third person here – at least in most of today's english translations.  You obviously can't use logic in this case to prove that the one speaking isn't Jesus Christ.

    Anyway, I just found that interesting.


    Kyle

    Good point!

    :(


    Kyle

    Should be a smile!!

    :) :) :)

    #51599

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 07 2007,19:24)

    Quote (Cult Buster @ May 07 2007,01:15)
    t8. Don't play around with words. It is very clear that Jehovah ( Jesus) was the One who was pierced.

    Instead of fighting the truth, repent of your sin and accept Jesus Christ as your God and Saviour.


    Quite right CB,
    The His/me argument is a red herring. The point is YHWH prophesied that He would be peirced and Yeshua fulfilled it!

    Q) Did YHWH declare, using the first person singular pronoun “me”, in Zechariah 12:10 that He would be “pierced” and “looked upon”?

    A) Yes. (t8 has conceded to this)

    Q)If YHWH makes an unconditional prophecy, will it come to pass?

    A) Yes. YHWH cannot lie (Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18).

    Q) Has this prophecy come to pass?

    A) Yes.

    Q) When?

    A) On the cross, at Calvary. Yeshua fulfilled it (John 19:37).

    Q) So….can this prophecy be fulfilled by proxy?

    A) No. That would impute a lie to YHWH. But YHWH cannot lie. Therefore Yeshua MUST BE YHWH.

    T8 has completely skirted around this dilemma. But it hasn't gone unnoticed.

    :)


    Amen!

    Is 1:18 and CB.

    Home run.

    I feel a grandslam on the way.

    :)

    #51600
    david
    Participant

    Inasmuch as Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3)

    When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said:

    “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40)

    This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS)

    In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

    But as Zechariah 12:10 also foretold, about this time Jehovah’s spirit was poured out upon the faithful remnant of natural Israel, at Pentecost. So the text had its miniature fulfillment.

    At the second presence of Christ Jesus the complete fulfillment takes place. His followers are persecuted and jailed and some are killed, and the work of announcing Jehovah’s King and kingdom is pierced and killed. These things done to Christ’s work and followers are counted as done to him; the persecutors are charged with piercing him. Any mourning by them is in selfish fear when they see coming upon them the dire consequences of their acts. The only true mourning is on the part of Jehovah’s people who had allowed themselves to fall short of their duties and be taken captive in Satan’s worldly system and made inactive in Jehovah’s service. But Jehovah comes to the rescue of this remnant of spiritual Israel, cleans them up, pours out his spirit or active force upon them, and under the enthroned King Christ Jesus the work is revived. (Matt. 25:40, 45; Rev. 1:7; 11:1-13)
    –watchtower, 1953, page 511

    #51603
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (david @ May 08 2007,09:02)
    Inasmuch as Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3)

    When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said:

    “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40)

    This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS)

    In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

    But as Zechariah 12:10 also foretold, about this time Jehovah’s spirit was poured out upon the faithful remnant of natural Israel, at Pentecost. So the text had its miniature fulfillment.

    At the second presence of Christ Jesus the complete fulfillment takes place. His followers are persecuted and jailed and some are killed, and the work of announcing Jehovah’s King and kingdom is pierced and killed. These things done to Christ’s work and followers are counted as done to him; the persecutors are charged with piercing him. Any mourning by them is in selfish fear when they see coming upon them the dire consequences of their acts. The only true mourning is on the part of Jehovah’s people who had allowed themselves to fall short of their duties and be taken captive in Satan’s worldly system and made inactive in Jehovah’s service. But Jehovah comes to the rescue of this remnant of spiritual Israel, cleans them up, pours out his spirit or active force upon them, and under the enthroned King Christ Jesus the work is revived. (Matt. 25:40, 45; Rev. 1:7; 11:1-13)
    –watchtower, 1953, page 511


    Psa 61:6 Thou wilt prolong the king's life: [and] his years as many generations.

    And we know a King saw corruption has prolonged his Life and is Incorruptible Now

    And we know he had a Mission this King; He would be the One to fulfill the will of God and declare His generation and see His seed That His soul shall be Made and Offering to Justfy many;

    His Mission
    Isa 58:12 And [they that shall be] of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

    No Many Go”s through with out Knowing the Fathers and prophets words
    Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

    So they forsake doing His work with him; for some other vain Gospal?
    Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

    I Have a faith ;that Dose believe God raised Jesus and he has come to get that which was Lost; So if Christ not be risen then neither are the dead and they Have perished?
    And they cannot grew up in the stalls to reign with Him putting their enemies who did not believe the Covenant that shall bring forth a savor for then; and rise men to judgment Days ; that they shall not prolong their Days from unbelief proving not to hear the shepherds call

    1Cr 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    And here they come children again growing up in the stalls as promised
    Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
    Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    Mal 4:2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

    Any that remain without root within perish; for even Christ had root within Himself from the age of the fathers; His Father King David;

    A Mighty Nation a Army of excellence transformed  to the Image Knowing the truth by the word of God They Shall execute His desire having followed and grown up In the stall children again waxing Strong In the spirit  wisdom and Knowledge Following after their King they Follow
    Joe 2:1 ¶ Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations.
    A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
    Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blacknessThey shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
    Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
    The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it? ¶ Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn

    #51623
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi charity,
    Do you think Jesus is some sort of a reincarnation of David or have we misunderstood you?
    He is the root and the offspring of David and David is as his “type” but he is before David and greater than him being even of origins greater than the angels, which is not the case for any puny human.

    #51626

    Quote (david @ May 08 2007,09:02)
    Inasmuch as Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3)

    When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said:

    “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40)

    This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS)

    In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

    But as Zechariah 12:10 also foretold, about this time Jehovah’s spirit was poured out upon the faithful remnant of natural Israel, at Pentecost. So the text had its miniature fulfillment.

    At the second presence of Christ Jesus the complete fulfillment takes place. His followers are persecuted and jailed and some are killed, and the work of announcing Jehovah’s King and kingdom is pierced and killed. These things done to Christ’s work and followers are counted as done to him; the persecutors are charged with piercing him. Any mourning by them is in selfish fear when they see coming upon them the dire consequences of their acts. The only true mourning is on the part of Jehovah’s people who had allowed themselves to fall short of their duties and be taken captive in Satan’s worldly system and made inactive in Jehovah’s service. But Jehovah comes to the rescue of this remnant of spiritual Israel, cleans them up, pours out his spirit or active force upon them, and under the enthroned King Christ Jesus the work is revived. (Matt. 25:40, 45; Rev. 1:7; 11:1-13)
    –watchtower, 1953, page 511


    Yes David.

    Of course we are not to take scriptures literally at any time.

    Lets just all interpret it according to how it fits us.

    The Apostle John gives no hint to what you are saying, he simply says that Yeshua fulfilled the scripture. He never mentioned the Father did he?

    I believe Yeshua literally fulfilled Hebrew scriptures!!!

    No one else but YHWH could have fulfilled this scripture.

    :O

    #51627

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2007,11:44)

    Quote (david @ May 08 2007,09:02)
    Inasmuch as Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3)

    When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said:

    “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40)

    This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS)

    In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

    But as Zechariah 12:10 also foretold, about this time Jehovah’s spirit was poured out upon the faithful remnant of natural Israel, at Pentecost. So the text had its miniature fulfillment.

    At the second presence of Christ Jesus the complete fulfillment takes place. His followers are persecuted and jailed and some are killed, and the work of announcing Jehovah’s King and kingdom is pierced and killed. These things done to Christ’s work and followers are counted as done to him; the persecutors are charged with piercing him. Any mourning by them is in selfish fear when they see coming upon them the dire consequences of their acts. The only true mourning is on the part of Jehovah’s people who had allowed themselves to fall short of their duties and be taken captive in Satan’s worldly system and made inactive in Jehovah’s service. But Jehovah comes to the rescue of this remnant of spiritual Israel, cleans them up, pours out his spirit or active force upon them, and under the enthroned King Christ Jesus the work is revived. (Matt. 25:40, 45; Rev. 1:7; 11:1-13)
    –watchtower, 1953, page 511


    Yes David.

    Of course we are not to take scriptures literally at any time.

    Lets just all interpret it according to how it fits us.

    The Apostle John gives no hint to what you are saying, he simply says that Yeshua fulfilled the scripture. He never mentioned the Father did he?

    I believe Yeshua literally fulfilled Hebrew scriptures!!!

    No one else but YHWH could have fulfilled this scripture.

    :O


    BTW David.

    You say…

    Quote
    Inasmuch as Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3)

    Does the NWT say Jesus “became” the exact representation of his very being?

    Because Heb 1:3 dosnt!

    :)

    #51630
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2007,11:05)
    Hi charity,
    Do you think Jesus is some sort of a reincarnation of David or have we misunderstood you?
    He is the root and the offspring of David and David is as his “type” but he is before David and greater than him being even of origins greater than the angels, which is not the case for any puny human.


    Reincarnation of David;
    Depends from what you see as reincarnation; Body and Soul;
    Christ has a prepared Body; leaving David’s body in the grave as told; and the soul receiving the sure mercy promised that it shall live; a body has thou prepared For  David talks of his own promise that he has been chosen to fulfill Gods will

    Yet Christ is a reincarnation raised now in the promised of a Incorruptible Body

    Faithfull and true the Name he himself only New
    Psa 40:6  Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
    Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, ( soul to a New Body)
    I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.
    I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
     I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
    Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.

    The New Body with the promise of sure mercy the Soul shall live
    Hbr 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    Incorruptible Body prepared to do Gods Will put to death TO RISE AGAIn
    doing away with the first to Make way for the second. Was Not christs body leaving Only Davids Body done away with
    Hbr 10:5 ¶ Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:  Hbr 10:6  In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.  Hbr 10:7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

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