The Trinity Doctrine is an unnecessary stumbling block

In scripture we never read about people preaching the Trinity or insisting that people believe it in order to have true faith in God.

Over the centuries many Christians have diverged and insisted that people believe in the Trinity as the foundation of true faith in God. While this belief indeed is the Roman Catholic Faith, Christians should never make this doctrine a requirement as it only proves to alienate people from the way.

In scripture we are told that stumbling blocks are inevitable, but woe to the them that lay them. Think about it, if you insist on this doctrine and it keeps a person from receiving the son of God, then you have contributed to blocking the way of salvation to that person.

We should be wise and stick to teaching what is written. God sent his son into the world to save men. He died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right-hand of God and interceding for us. This is written.

Keep it simple. Simplicity in Christ. He is the son of the living God, the messiah, and the one whom God made Lord. There is no point in insisting on things that are not written, especially if they become the deal breaker from them receiving the son of God.

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Viewing 20 posts - 641 through 660 (of 907 total)
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  • #818077
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    If God we’re your Father, you would not deny that His Son was Jehovah as the Lord of Lords, imo.

    The Father and Son are one as Jehovah, in the fullest sense. Believers are not one AS Jehovah…believers are one IN Jehovah, in Jehovah’s name,  as the church body.

    LU

    #818093
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    No, for us, there is one God the Father. I know you are not ‘us’ that is obvious. You have this other doctrine that I have never heard anyone else believe. I have yet to meet one person who agrees with you. But you can go through life as another that is not ‘us’. It is your life, do with it as you will.

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
    one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

    #818099
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    It seems to me that the difference between you and me is this:

    For you, you have one God and Lord, the Father, and a lessor lord, Jesus Christ.

    For me, I have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

    I believe that I am in line with Christians worldwide as well as Paul who wrote the verse you quote:

    1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

    I do believe that mainstream Christians worldwide believe that Jesus is Jehovah and also the Father is Jehovah and they are two persons together as one God with their Holy Spirit. A simple google search should show you that. I am far from alone on my understanding.

    #818110
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    LU, you have taught that both the Father and the Son make up this one God. That is incorrect.  There is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And yes, the Father is greater than the son. And God greater than the Lord.

    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    Nowhere do you read that the Lord made the Father God do you. The son is of God and God is the Most High.

    Denying the truth that the Father is the true God and Jesus his son is denying one of the most important of truths. And people who teach others to break the commandments at best are least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    #818113
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    Please tell me which way you understand the sonship of Jesus before He became a man:

    1. He was the same type of being as his father. For example, Joseph was the same type of being as his father, Jacob.
    2. He was a different type of being than his father. For example, an angel is a different type of being than the Father.
    3. Other, please explain.
    #818118
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    LU, it doesn’t make any difference what I believe regarding your doctrine. Your view that both the Father and Son are both the Most High God is not true. This is what you believe right?

    #818151
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    Once again:

    Please tell me which way you understand the sonship of Jesus before He became a man:

    1. He was the same type of being as his father. For example, Joseph was the same type of being as his father, Jacob.

    2. He was a different type of being than his father. For example, an angel is a different type of being than the Father.

    3. Other, please explain.

    What is your view, #1, #2, or #3. If #3, please explain. This is important to me to help me understand if we have the same view on this or not.

    Please answer the question, t8.

    #818200
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    Please answer the above post with one of the three choices. It is not about my doctrine. It is about your view. I don’t want to have to guess. So, just give us your view.

    #818573
    Jael
    Participant

    LU,

    The Father is SPIRIT.

    The Angels are SPIRITS.

    Jesus is HUMAN.

    Jesus is called ‘Son of God’ and is also ‘Son of the Father’.

    God and Father (different TITLES of the  most Holy One) DOES NOT PROCREATE.

    He only CREATES.

    Therefore, ‘Son’ does not mean an offspring of his Spirit person.

    It means ‘Someone who DOES EXACTLY what the God and Father directs him to do’.

    No one of humanity except Jesus did ‘exactly’ what Yahweh taught and directed him to do: no, not Adam, not Abraham, not EVEN Moses, not David, not EVEN Solomon, even the holy prophets failed to follow god’s direction at some point. Thus they all failed to be perfect in God. The scriptures says, ‘No, not one!’

    For the reason they failed, they were human sons of the first human, Adam, and therefore were born in sin through him, yes, for this reason God saw that ‘no one with sin – no, not one!’ could fulfil the role of ‘Christ’ (please, this just means ‘Saviour’. It’s not EXPLICIT to ‘Jesus’. It could well have been ‘Abraham Christ, or Moses Christ, or David Christ’, if they and each had not sinned!!!)

    God saw that A MAN WITHOUT SIN would be required. So he went back to basics and CREATED A MAN IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE FIRST MAN: a SECOND ADAM.

    Can you see that this was a necessary act. One, the first, imbibed sin and corruption in mankind…a perfect EQUIVALENT second would be required to SAVE mankind.

    It is RIDICULOUS to say that God ‘sent HIMSELF’ as a man to save mankind especially as GOD REQUIRED the ‘Blood of death for the blood of sin’ as a sacrifice FROM MAN. (Read the scriptures and see what the purpose of the sacrifice was for and how it was to be achieved) How in heavens could GOD BE THAT SACRIFICIAL LAMB even IF he were to ..,umm.., disguise himself …as a human being.

    Lu, WHO would GOD be pleasing if HE HIMSELF ‘DIED’ for his own creation? Not even a human King DIES to save his people… It is unheard of even as a human concept, let alone for an ALMIGHTY GOD!

    Jesus is A HUMAN BEING who exemplified the SPIRIT OF GOD. And as such, ALMIGHTY GOD says of him, ‘This is my SON, in whom I am well pleased!’.

    Lu, if Jesus were GOD, how would ‘FATHER GOD’ have to be PLEASED with SON GOD if ANYTHING/ONE who IS GOD is by plain reason, PERFECT?

    Lu, moreover, if Jesus were ALREADY GOD as (incredibly impossible) SPIRIT PROCREATION of God, why would Father God say to him: ‘THIS DAY YOU HAVE …become… a son to me, and I a Father to you’.

    Lu, when did God say this to Jesus? It was necessarily AFTER CREATION so Jesus BECOMING ‘SON OF GOD’ was within creation.

    And would have to be AFTER Jesus was BORN.

    It would have to after Jesus PROVED HIMSELF TO BE WORTHY. And, Lu, when but after his wilderness temptation under great stress (he was starved and in a weak and vulnerable state…easy prey to use the power of the Holy Spirit that had been put on him… easy to feed himself with rocks turned to bread, easy to give in to the easy way to power by simply bowing to Satan, easy to show of ‘floating to the ground’ in front of the watching Jews.)

    Lu, the point of temptation is that the temptee should gain something without the proper means. If as YOU SAY, Jesus was already GOD, what gain by any, let alone underhanded means could be a temptation?

    #818579
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Jael

    Please go here to ask me your questions so that I’m not being asked about the same topics in more than one thread.

    Lightenup/Jael Discussion

    #818592
    Jael
    Participant

    Creating your own doctrine and trying to defend it against the truth of scriptures is a hopeless cause.

    Where does any scripture suggest that Almighty God ‘incubated’ another God in himself and then gave birth to him?

    Lu, has anyone so far agreed with anything of your personal doctrine?

     

    Jesus was born a man in the manner of Adam. That means he was SINLESS and HOLY. This is what the scriptures we believe and study states. Bringing a self created doctrine has no place in a discussion on the truth or otherwise of the belief of what we call ‘Christian’ scriptures.

    #818594
    Lightenup
    Participant
    #818607
    AndrewAD
    Participant

    Jael,

    “Creating your own doctrine and trying to defend it against the truth of scriptures is a hopeless cause.” So why do you do this?  Christians throughout Christian history,or at least since the Christian scriptures were collected have been debating this very issue. Do you know nothing of what the Council of Nicea was about? Arians and Athanasians alike agreed Jesus preexisted, and they all called him God;the debate was whether Jesus was the eternal Son-always existed like the Father or a created son and even that before the creation of the world. So LU didn’t create the doctrine and to say it has no place in the discussion of Christian scripture is ludicrous.

    “Lu, has anyone so far agreed with anything of your personal doctrine?” I would say the majority of Christians now and throughout Christian history would agree with her much more than you.

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Is this not a Christian scripture?

     

    #818612
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @AndrewAD

    Thank you for your post and support. I agree, I am not declaring anything new. The early church fathers used terms like ‘offspring’ and ‘begotten God’ regarding Jesus/Yeshua and terms like ‘the unbegotten God’ in regards to the Father. That was before the Council of Nicea.

    #818712
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Creating your own doctrine and trying to defend it against the truth of scriptures is a hopeless cause.

    Where does any scripture suggest that Almighty God ‘incubated’ another God in himself and then gave birth to him?

    Lu, has anyone so far agreed with anything of your personal doctrine?

    It does boggle the mind as to why so many feel the need to do such things rather than accept the revelation of scripture. We are clearly told who Jesus is, but many who think they are wise feel they need to go beyond scripture.

    #818713
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Thank you for your post and support. I agree, I am not declaring anything new. The early church fathers used terms like ‘offspring’ and ‘begotten God’ regarding Jesus/Yeshua and terms like ‘the unbegotten God’ in regards to the Father. That was before the Council of Nicea.

    These writings clearly define Jesus as the first work of the Father as the Word that was with him. If scripture calls men ‘theos’ and they are humans, then yes Jesus is so much more as he is the only begotten.

    There is no excuse for using such to mean that Jesus is also a God, or member of God, or God himself. If you made that case, you would have to include men who are called ‘theos’ as well.

    #818719
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8 you said:

    These writings clearly define Jesus as the first work of the Father as the Word that was with him.

    What writings are you referring to specifically?

    #818720
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    you said: If scripture calls men ‘theos’ and they are humans, then yes Jesus is so much more as he is the only begotten.

    At least you can see that Jesus is much more since he is the only begotten. In fact, Peter shows us that He is called YHVH of Hosts by YHVH. Isn’t YHVH of Hosts your God or just YHVH?

    #818722
    Jael
    Participant

    LU, I would challenge you to show where scriptures Peter shows that Jesus is called YHWH of hosts by YHWH…

    ((P.s. ‘Yhwh’ is the PERSONAL NAME of Almighty God of the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, and Christians. Jesus’ personal name …is …. ‘Jesus’ (English spelling).

    The TITLE ‘God’ (or THEOS as you put it) is EXACTLY THAT: A TITLE. It means various things surrounding ‘Greatest, mightiest, heroic, noble magnificent, top dog (no pun intended), holiest, …’. Therefore ANYONE within ANY CONTEXT can be ‘GOD / THEOS of that context’.

    Jesus Christ himself reminds the Jews that their ALMIGHTY GOD, his Father,YHWH HIMSELF, called MIGHTY men of REKNOWN who received the word of YHWH, ‘GODS’/’THEOS(s)’.

    Now I know that the revelation of truth rarely alters the false ideas of the diehard but a few do come to a realisation… Can that be you, in this instance!?

    #818723
    Jael
    Participant

    LU, ‘Jesus… First works of The Father.’!

    Where do you get that from in the Scriptures?

    Are you saying that GOD made Jesus?

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