The Trinity Doctrine is an unnecessary stumbling block

This topic contains 907 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  Jael 5 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #818723
     Jael 
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    LU, ‘Jesus… First works of The Father.’!

    Where do you get that from in the Scriptures?

    Are you saying that GOD made Jesus?

    #818728
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    Challenge accepted!

    In Isaiah 8, Jehovah is prophecying to Isaiah about Jehovah of hosts who is going to be the stone of stumbling. This ‘Jehovah of hosts’ is identified by Peter as Jesus in 1 Peter 2.

    Isaiah 8:12-15
    11 Jehovah spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,
    12 Say ye not, A conspiracy, concerning all whereof this people shall say, A conspiracy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be in dread thereof .
    13 Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
    14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
    15 And many shall stumble thereon, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

    1 Peter 2
    6 For in Scripture it says:
    “See, I lay a stone in Zion,
    a chosen and precious cornerstone,
    and the one who trusts in him
    will never be put to shame.”
    7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
    “The stone the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone,”
    8 and,
    “A stone that causes people to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall.”

    You, Jael, also stumble over this stone. You do not understand Jesus/Yeshua as the Jehovah of Hosts from Isaiah 8:13.

     

    #818729
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    Jael, you asked me this:

    LU, ‘Jesus… First works of The Father.’!

    Where do you get that from in the Scriptures?

    Are you saying that GOD made Jesus?

    If you would read my post correctly, t8 was speaking about that and I was asking him to show us where he specifically got that thought so that I could address it.

    Fyi, I do not believe that the Father made Jesus. I believe that the Father begat Jesus who always existed.

    #818730
     Jael 
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    LU, ‘The Father begat Jesus who always existed’!!!

    What an amazing concept…

    Lu, you are adding impossible none sense to human reproduction.

    Your thoughts are so mixed up you are forced to Create even greater mixed up thoughts to cover the first… This is reminiscent of compromised concepts (basically, trying to cover one mis-invention by yet another – and mismatched – mis-invention!)

    This inevitably leads to the ‘snake biting its own tail’, viz: If Jesus already EXISTED as an eternal being, how could he be then created?

    Lu, you seem incapable of letting go of the tail you have just bitten – your own!!

    Lu, where is your creative support from scriptures that shows where Jesus was existing as an eternally unborn baby in God and yet always existed as a fully formed ‘GOD’ inside ALMIGHTY GOD: the Father?

    In your response please include your definition of the TITLE ‘GOD’ and the difference between the Father, who Jesus states is ‘The ONLY TRUE GOD’, …The Almighty God…, and Jesus, who is called ‘Lord’.

    (I’m not after a thesis, just an understanding of where you are going wrong with your ideas: basically, you cannot explain with truth who Almighty God is with reference to Jesus as Lord unless you become creative with your mis-conceptions)

    #818731
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    I have shown you where the Son is called the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning. Therefore, He always existed.

    I have shown you that begetting does not necessarily mean created but merely bringing something forth from one place to another. Nothing can be brought forth from one place to another unless it already existed in the first place.

    I have shown you where the Son says that He has come out of the Father.

    He is called the Firstborn over all creation who was used to create all things through. Therefore, He must have come out of the Father before creation.

    I have shown you that He has been identified as YHVH of hosts.

    You do know that the Son is called the Lord of lords…YHVH is the Lord of lords. YHVH is the God of gods. The Father is God, the Son is Lord. Put it together.

    Do you not see that the Son is worshiped and receives the same glory, honor and praise as the Father in Rev.5?

    Perhaps the reason this all seems so amazing to you is because you have not let this concept of ‘true Son’ pierce your heart.

    Think about it…God is YHVH and YHVH = The God of gods + The Lord of lords. That is two who are one. Can two perfects be any less than one in spirit, purpose or essence? NO! If they were not one in spirit, purpose and essence, they would cease from being perfect.

    Please read this thoughtfully before you respond. Think it through. You put a lot of words down that I never have used. For instance, I have never referred to the Son as an unborn baby within God the Father. I have used the term ‘offspring’ though, who was eternally within the Father and then begotten from the Father.

    Is the Father less than perfect? NO

    Is the Son less than perfect? NO

    There you have two who are perfect in every way, both having the highest essence. One is the offspring from within the other. How did the Son get there? The same way the Father got there…they always were. This is beyond explainable.

     

    #818733
     Jael 
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    LU, thank you for as much as you just said… I now fully understand your delusion.

    But what happened to response to the part where I asked you to define the title  ‘GOD’ and who is ALMIGHTY GOD if Jesus is only ‘Lord’?

    #818734
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    The true God is defined as YHVH and YHVH is the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

    #818737
     Jael 
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    So, Lu…

    Who is ALMIGHTY GOD?

    Who is ‘The ONLY TRUE GOD’?

    #818738
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    YHVH

    #818741
     Jael 
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    Yes, Lu. Jesus said that the only way to gain eternal life was to believe (and believing means complying with the commandments and doctrine of God that he brought from the almighty God: the Father) in his ‘father, the only true God, and Jesus, the Christ’.

    Lu, do you believe that the Father, is that ‘Only True God’: YHWH?

    And do you believe in Jesus, ‘The Christ of God Almighty’?

    #818742
     Lightenup 
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    Yes, Jael, I believe that the Father is the only true God, YHVH,  together with the Son and their Spirit.

    I believe that the Son is Jesus Christ from within the unity of the Almighty God.

    #818743
     Jael 
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    Oh, and by the way… The Stone…

    You say the stone talked about was Christ Jesus.

    What is the meaning of the name, ‘Peter’?

    Is it not ‘The Stone’??

    So what would be your conclusion now: that Peter, was  Christ Jesus? Or that ‘the Stone’ previously and afterwards mentioned was Peter, the Apostle?

    Afterall, wasn’t there a mention of Peter being the foundation (stone) of the oniony church?

    #818744
     Jael 
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    LU, you cannot say that the Father is the only true God … ‘Together with….’.

    It is clear that you are realising your grave error. I urge you to consider deeply the ideas you are obviously misappropriating as your ideology.

    ‘together with THEIR SPIRITS’?

    lu, schoolgirl error. Now there are SIX ALMIGHTIESaccording to your floundering ideas:

    1) The Father…

    2) The Son…

    3) The Holy Spirit…

    4) The spirit of (1)

    5) The Spirit of (2)

    6) The Spirit of (3)

    Oh dear!

    In addition, there are others who are called ‘GOD’ – Can you name any of them?

    #818745
     Jael 
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    LU, you said that Jesus said he ‘came out of the Father.’

    Is my English bad or were the words, ‘I came out FROM the Father.’

    Jesus stated that he was taught by the Father… that he could do or say nothing except what he saw and heard the Father tell him.

    You say Jesus was that Same Almighty God: YHWH, yet Jesus had to WAIT to be taught, WAIT to see that which was the fathers words and deeds. How does this demonstrate Jesus as ALMIGHTY YAHWEH?

    Did Jesus BECOME MIGHTY YAHWEH by being taught by YAHWEH?

    (Caution!! These are leading questions!! Oh did Idaho that!!)

    As a child, Jesus ‘Grew in stature (power) and wisdom (knowledge) [concerning Almighty God: Yahweh: the Father]’.

    Can anyone teach Almighty God?

    Oh, Lu, the Holy Spirit… Do you say IT is a person?

    I read that the holyspirit is the spirit of THE FATHER: The Spirit of Almighty GOD’. It is ‘THE FATHER’S SPIRIT:

    ‘I will put MY SPIRIT ON HIM’, says Yahweh.

    #818746
     Jael 
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    Please, Lu, in your response to my last question please relate it to prophecy in Isaiah 42:1 and the timely realisation in Matthew 12: 17-21.

    Who is the prophecy about and who confirmed that prophecy at the latter time?

    #818748
     Lightenup 
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    Jael , your mind is racing. Slow down and find that most pressing question that you want to ask me and then I will address it here. Until then, I will pick a question of yours and address it in the one on one discussion thread that I made to keep my answers collected in a more comprehensive manner, if and when I have time.

    Thanks!

    #818753
     Jael 
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    No,Lu: this thread is where I desire to see the responders show their ideologies and theologies concerning the issue raised in the thread question and theology.

    Your thread is where you discuss your questions

    concerning your thread questions and ideology.

    #818755
     Lightenup 
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    Jael,

    Please read my last response to you more slowly and respond to what I asked of you in the first part.

    Thank you.

    #818761
     t8 
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    LU, ‘The Father begat Jesus who always existed’!!!

    I know. Ridiculous for a number of reasons.

    1. It is an oxymoron;
    2. It is a denial of the very definition of ‘begat’;
    3. It is a denial of sonship and fatherhood;
    4. No such concept or language exists in scripture. It is more the realm of Greek philosophy;
    5. It is like saying: “the cold hot” or “the slow speedster”.
    6. Just plain dumb.

    Meddling with perfection does not lead to better than perfection, but less.

    #818777
     Lightenup 
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    @t8

    You are still clueless of the term ‘begat.’ If the act of begetting takes something that exists and moves it to another place, then obviously the actual begetting does not make something come into existence.

    Also, an eternal Father would require the existence of an eternal Son. Without an eternal Son, there would not be an eternal Father.

    The oxymoron is what you seem to believe in…a fatherless, eternal father.  That is what is plain dumb, my friend.

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