Testing the Trinity

Trinity Painting

 

The Spirit is the Spirit OF God
Yeshua is the son OF God.
So is the Father, the Father OF God?

No, the Father is never referred to as the Father of God, by teachers or in the Bible. That is because there is no doubt among Christians that the Father is God and not OF him. Even Paul stated this when he said, “for us there is one God the Father”. Today’s confession however, goes more like this: “for us there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”. So why is today’s language describing God different to what we read in scripture? What is going on?

The journey to answer this question and other related questions about the Trinity goes back a few decades for me. God had challenged my belief on the Trinity while I blindly believed and accepted the Trinity Doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know intimately what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely so we do not become deceived.

What I discovered about the Trinity

With a conviction in my heart to test the Trinity Doctrine, I embarked on reading scriptures that described God and to test the verses that are used to support the Trinity, but what I found truly challenged my belief in the Trinity. However, when I brought the subject up with other Christians while I was investigating this, there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided I would just leave it and accept that the Trinity Doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. I based this decision on making other Christians feel uncomfortable with me as they assumed I was erring from the faith. In hindsight, I can see my problem was based in the fear of man. Truth should always override what people think.

It was some years later that God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me to provoke me to test this belief. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore, and I did a full study of the subject where God divinely lead me to a new scripture almost one each day. Each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what God was conveying to me. While I had and continue to have a clear understanding of what the Trinity Doctrine teaches, the challenge was about seeing whether the Trinity Doctrine was a biblical doctrine.

What I discovered was very interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.

  1. The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism.
  2. The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine for Christianity started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
  3. The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of. He was also head of the Pagan religions.
  4. During and after the Holy Roman Empire, creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through. Mary was exalted to Mother of God (a title that goes back to Babylon) and worship of the saints was also sanctioned.
  5. The organized church we see today was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today’s churches/denominations. These denominations are not to be confused with the Body of Christ spoken of in the scripture. Most denominations are still rooted in a Trinitarian creed of some kind. So their foundation is the Trinity which came from Babylon.
  6. The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies which Jesus said his church did not need, and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known by the descriptive term, ‘The Dark Ages’.
  7. Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
  8. As a result of the Reformation, many new denominations started up, but they too held onto some of the creeds including the Trinity Doctrine.
  9. Babylon means confusion and the foundation of most denominations is the Trinity Doctrine which is confusing to all, even proponents of the doctrine. We are told to come out Babylon the Mystery religion lest we partake in her sins and iniquity. Who is Babylon? She is the mother of all harlots and the kings of the Earth have committed adultery with her. She is the religious system that was rooted in Babylon and she has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

History of the Trinity

From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn’t come into existence or wasn’t recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.

In addition to that, the fruit of this doctrine appears to be bad. We know that one lie leads to another and history shows us that making Jesus God, opened the door for Mary to become the mother of God. Further, if Mary is the Mother of God, then that opens the door to the worship of other humans or saints.

In Revelation 17 we read about the ‘Mother of Harlots’ or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.

Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is after all known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth becomes the original model of the person we call the Pope today. The Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it’s very name that it’s roots are in Rome and many of the traditions she adheres to come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were re-branded as Christian back in the days of Emperor Constantine. In one sense we can see that these creeds led to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God to a lie. But in order for these man-made creeds and lies to be administered and managed, there needed to exist some kind of organization of man to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organizations are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is perhaps the mother which would make the smaller denominations the harlots or daughters of the harlot. The term ‘Mother of Harlots’ of course leads us to wonder who the daughters or offspring are. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this harlot and we all know that many world leaders befriend the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own political agendas and to gain votes. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her because he will judge her quickly.

Babel, Babylon, Egypt, and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives were to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness and prowess. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt, and Rome also enslave the children of God and also hated them to the point of death. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. History also records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people including Christians. They were killed as ‘heretics’ for things like reading scripture, translating scripture, or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their traditions.

Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. Try questioning this doctrine in any denomination that is built on this creed, and watch the horror on people’s faces and the warnings that will proceed thereafter.

We know from scripture that the curse of Babel was division. The Babylonians built a tower in their name and God divided their language to weaken them, lest they succeed in all kinds of wickedness. But this spirit also exists in the organised churches. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition, and they are all about making a name for themselves. They build towers in their name and in times past the steeples on these structure were the tallest structures in their communities. Now can you see that denominations are really just the divided languages of Christianity, just the same as divisions caused by multiple natural languages resulting from Babel. And the reason for this division is not what many think, it is so they cannot together succeed at works of iniquity and while in this divisive state, they cannot accomplish anything their hearts desire. True unity is extremely important and something that God will bring about and is already doing. But unity in the love and truth of God is paramount, not unity in making a name for themselves. People are misguided when they think that it would be a good thing if all the denominations united under one banner. What is better it people uniting in the truth because of their love of God and all things that are of him.

Denominations and their Trinity foundation

But doesn’t God use denominations to spread his gospel?. The quick answer to this is God uses men to do his work. If these men are part of a denomination or not, God uses the man, not the building and not the system. If you look into this you will likely find that the system actually hinders men in being led the the Spirit of God and the system itself takes up much resources to run, when instead such resources could help the poor and needy.

Many are being used by God for his purposes and this has been true since the birth of the Church. In times of great ignorance, it appears that God does compromise for our benefit. He works with what he can and we often limit God. But God is constantly trying to give us access to his limitless resources. In this age of denominations, it is hard to accept that there really is only one church built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles. The only divisions are actually geographical divisions. The 7 churches in Revelation for example aren’t 7 separate churches, but 7 cities in which the Church resides. For example, in the Book of Revelation where it says: “to the Church in Laodecia”, it is saying to the Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church, because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location. This explains why we also read in 1 Corinthians 16:19: “The churches of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.”. So this simply means the part of the Church that meets in that house. It was not a denomination like we see today.

Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds formed centuries ago, but centuries after the Bible was first penned. Often Christians are invited or required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church. They also think that once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, even a mass murderer could do that. True Believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Son of God, and the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God’s children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they can also contain non-believers, criminals, and unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope, Archbishop, or a president. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.

The truth about God and who he is

Now the Trinity Doctrine says that God is made up of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the Father is the only true God. So who is the son? Easy. He is the son of this God.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The above scripture is not to be taken lightly. Do not pass over it until you have grasped it. After all, it is eternal life and isn’t that the point of having faith in God?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Clearly, the God and Father of all is the Father and not Jesus. Jesus is the Lord according to the above scripture.

Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relationship with his Son. how about use Jesus own words. Are not his words better than some creed that came from man? John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The true doctrine & foundation

The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:

  • God exists and rewards those that seek him.
  • We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
  • Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
  • Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
  • Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
  • Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
  • The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
  • That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.
I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational doctrine. However the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation is actually another foundation. Another foundation is not the same as the true foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity Doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.

Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scriptures that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6

But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.

The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.

But it must be made clear that ‘Elohim’ and ‘Theos’ are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).

Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.

Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh’s Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God’s name is in his son’s name. (Yah)

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.

Who and what is Jesus

So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.

  • God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • The Son is the exact brightness of God’s glory.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the image of the invisible God.
    See Colossians 1:12-16
  • God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
    See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
  • He is seated at the right hand of God.
    See Colossians 3:1-3
  • He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
    See Revelation 1:4-6
  • Jesus has first place in everything.
    See Colossians 1:18
  • Jesus is head over the Church.
    See Ephesians 1:22
  • He is Gods firstborn.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
  • Jesus is begotten, not created.
    See John 1:3
The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18

Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in all fairness we have to conclude that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.

To be divine and to be the Divine is two different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his sons who are part of his family. Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But did you know hat we can also partake of the divine nature and still not be God? And if you understand that, then it must be that if Jesus has divine nature, then that also does not make him God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn’t know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” & Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”

Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking about the Father.

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Conclusion

To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a form in your mind or using a diagram to depict him. It is the nature of Man to do this. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine. God is a person and the Trinity Doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word ‘god’ can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization. Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity Doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart. Two more scriptures before I finish.

Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is his Father and our Father.

For a more in depth look at this subject, see the writing The Trinity Doctrine.

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  • #792425
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Is it in the bible?

    Nick,

    IT IS IN THE BIBLE, IN THE SAME WAY AS JESUS CHRIST IS ALSO IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE , BUT NOT EVEN MENTIONED AS SUCH IN THE OT!

    SINCE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT,

    YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT

    GOD WILL NEVER ALLOW YOU TO SEE, WHAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN!

    IN FACT HE EVEN MAKE YOU MORE BLIND SINCE:

    WHO HAS MORE IT WOULD BE GIVEN TO HIM, AND WHO HASN’T IT WOULD BE TAKEN FROM HIM EVEN WHAT HE BELIEVED HE HAS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #792427
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi C,

    Since you words are all curses why add a blessing at the end?
    I think you have got personally involved in your beliefs and you take things personally.

    #792429
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Jesus told his disciples “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.(John 20:17 AV of the KJV)

    Kerwin,

    WHAT THE PHRASE ASCEND TO MEAN?

    NOT UNTO, UNTO IS PURPOSELY CORRUPTED WHICH IS COMPLETELY MISGUIDING!

     

    TO MAKE IT EASY FOR YOU READ HEREUNDER

    HELPS Word-studies TO: 4314 PROS

    4314 prós (a preposition) – properly, motion towards to “interface with” (literally, moving toward a goal or destination).

    4314 /prós (“towards, with”) indicates “extension toward a goal, with implied interaction or reciprocity (L & N, 1, 84.18), with “presumed contact and reaction” (L & N, 1, 84.23). 4314 (prós) naturally suggests the cycle of initiation and response (L-N, 1,90.25, 90.33).

    [4314 (prós) can mean “in view of,” or “in light of, but never “against,” except where the context indicates an active exchange (interface) done in opposition.]

     

    NOW WHEN YOU APPLY THOSE DEFINITIONS TO JESUS’ STATEMENT IT IS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT JESUS SINCE

    HE WAS STILL IN HIS OWN GLORY AS MAN,SIMPLY RESURRECTED!

    MEANT THAT HE WOULD ASCEND

    BOTH TO THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER, as man, therefore spirit. and to the glory of HER FATHER, as woman, therefore flesh,

    THE FACT THAT REGARDING THE HEAVENS THERE WERE ONLY SONS, AND NOT DAUGHTERS, SINCE WOMAN WAS CONSIDERED SATAN’S EARTHLY REPRESENTATIVE , MOTHER EARTH OF ALL THE LIVING IN THE FLESH!

    both to THE GLORY OF HIS GOD,  God of all spirits, AND HER GOD, God of all flesh!

    So whether you believe it or not

     

    JESUS CONFIRMED THAT FEW HOURS LATER FROM THAT MOMENT IN TIME HE SPOKE TO MARY, THREE HOURS TO BE EXACT,

    HE WOULD BE

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD,spirit AND JESUS CHRIST flesh

    THE FATHER IS STILL A SPIRIT! NOT IN THE TRUTH! PHYSICALLY, EXCEPT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST

    TILL THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Christ

    #792430
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    WHAT THE PHRASE ASCEND TO MEAN?

    NOT UNTO, UNTO IS PURPOSELY CORRUPTED WHICH IS COMPLETELY MISGUIDING!

    To be upfront, I do not see your posts as rational for the most part.

    Here you make a statement but offer no argument why your conclusion is true and that leads me to conclude you desire me to believe your statement on faith. I am not going to do that.

    #792431
    kerwin
    Participant

    Bodhitharta,

    There no passage in Scripture where Jesus states he is God so they have to draw on those they find open to interpretation in order to claim he does. One of those is “Before Abraham was made, I am”. It is poor grammar only in that it mixes tenses in a way that does not work. Even if you stick with the poor quality grammar the words “I am” are not monotonous with the words “I am God”. In short that teaching is fictitious even though many deny the evidence to the contrary so that in their minds it remains a true teaching.

    #792432
    kerwin
    Participant

    Bodhitharta,

    I agree with your last two posts to me in this thread.

    #792439
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Catholics make more sense than you t8..!!

    You said @DavidL, not me.

    I say that the only true God is the Father, and he sent his son, yet the Trinity makes more sense to you.
    This is the point I have made from the beginning and you confirm it again with your post.

    What you are really saying is that the Catholics make more sense to you than Jesus Christ.

    1) Jesus said: “Eternal life is this, to know the ONLY true God AND Jesus Christ whom HE has sent“.

    2) Catholics said: “And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;“.

    I am with 1) you are with 2). It is as plain as that.

    #792440
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    That was pretty clear t8 now sit back and watch the Magic of the trinity show:

    You see t8 from a Magic trinity perspective DavidL can be both 1 & 2 because to him Jesus is the Only true God by way of the Holy Spirit now I know you might have realized it almost made sense except I kinda left out “The Father” but that’s okay because when I talk about The Father then He is the Only true God, i know you may not understand that when I talk about God I could be talking about 1 out of 3 possible entities depending on what I want it to mean. Like you could say aha! Look: Jesus says that “the Father is greater than I” but with immense magic he can say of course in the flesh the Father is greater(Not realizing he just said that God is greater than guess who? yep “God”) that is incredible magic where God can be greater than God but that still leaves us with a problem because when God 1 is greater than God 2 what happens with God 3 I know….Just don’t mention the third

    #792497
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Jesus told his disciples “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Kerwin,

    HOW COME THAT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THE TITLE ” MY FATHER” RATHER THEN IN WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY MEANT, SINCE YOU ARE SO KEEN IN YOUR BELIEF?

    THE FACT THAT HE SAID MY FATHER, IT COULD ALSO BE A REFERENCE TO HIMSELF,

    SINCE HE ESTABLISHED HIMSELF THROUGH HIS DEATH

    THE FATHER AND GOD OF ALL CREATION

    AND CREATED ALL ANEW PERFECT FOR GOD ALMIGHTY!

    John 4:34 Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me,

    that I may perfect his work.

     

    OR YOU ALSO DON’T SEE THIS RATIONAL?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #792498
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi C,

    So you can tell what Jesus meant even if he did not say it?

    Sounds gnostic.

    #792499
    DavidL
    Participant

    t8

    What you are really saying is that the Catholics make more sense to you than Jesus Christ.

     

    No – that’s what you’d like to think..

    you are the one who likes to twist words – just as you twist the words of Jesus Christ, and the meaning of Scripture, to fit your own made-up theology.. denying what Christ Himself declared – “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”..!!! you claim this oneness is just some unity of the spirit (because Jesus prayed that we might all be one as they are one)…but if you look at what the actual verse says… “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us..” we notice that Jesus is here again including Himself with God – read it again, “..that they also may be in Us..” (Us – I and the Father are one).. See again how Scripture confirms Scripture..

    With God – was God..
    Seen Me – seen the Father…

    Eternal life = The only true God and Christ..

    BUT YOU DENY THE ONENESS OF THE SON WITH THE FATHER…!!!

    YOU DENY THE WORDS OF CHRIST…!!!

    YOU DENY THE REALITY OF CHRIST…!!!

    (so how can you have the Father, when you deny the Son..?)

     

    Therefore you must change the words of John 1:1, as ALL CULTS WHO DENY THE TRINITY have to do..

    There is only one translation of Scripture that puts god (small g) for theos, as you have done, and if you had any sense at all, that alone would send off a very loud and clear alarm signal that something is completely amiss with your teaching… because – that only translation happens to belong to one of the largest christian cult groups in the world, who actually have re-translated the Bible to fit their own uninspired beliefs (something you also practice), and now they falsely promote themselves as the only true representation of God’s church on earth.. (denying the validity of mainstream Christianity – which you also do).

     

    As you can see, I challenge your teaching with the truth of Scripture – not with Catholic doctrine. Yet what you shared from their catechism is definitively closer to the truth than what you teach.

    one altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. 

    #792502
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Please! I may not be an English expert but I am well aware that a person is not their own father. If Jesus wanted to say what you claim he did then his words would be “I am ascending to myself, who is your Father and God.” Instead he made it clear God is his Father and the Father of those that believe in him.

    No magic explanation needed.

    #792503
    kerwin
    Participant

    David L,

    T8 does change the words of John 1:1 but then so do you since it does not have the either Jesus or the word Christ. Instead it is talking about the Word of God; the same Word that comes out of God’s mouth. It is clear you do not want to believe what it says as you have not tested what you have been told by men.

    #792505
    DavidL
    Participant

    Kerwin

    Jesus = the Word – as Scripture says….

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” – John 1:1,2

    If John says ‘He’ was in the beginning with God – Who is he talking about ?

    I trust the Scriptures because they are true..(regardless of your apparent logic to the contrary).

    #792506
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    No scripture does not say Jesus of Nazareth was always the Word.

     

    #792507
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    So we can be one with God and His Son too

    in the one Spirit.

    #792509
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    Hi DavidL

    Proverbs 30:5
    Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

    Hey DavidL what is “Every” referring to?

    1 Kings 12:22
    But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

    Did Jesus enter Shemiah?

    1 Chronicles 17:3
    And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,

    Did Jesus enter Nathan?

    John 10:35
    If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    Is Jesus talking about himself?

    Isaiah 55:11
    So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Just like Jesus God spoke him into existence to accomplish a mission.

    Jeremiah 23:28
    The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

    John 3:34
    For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    #792510
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi BD,

    Do you believe these words?

    You just quoted from your teachings what does not align with them.

    Which is true?

    #792517
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    As Nick correctly points out Scripture does not claim Jesus was always the word of God. Instead it states the Word became flesh and teaches us the origins of Jesus Christ by tracing his ancestry, according to the flesh back to Adam, who it then calls the son of God.

    The reason you see Jesus in John 1:1 as you have been conditioned to see him there. You know God’s word was with him in the beginning because it is written that God said let there be light at that time.

    #792521
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @DavidL, while you may or may not have some valid points about the Word being with God, I want to point you to something of utmost importance that far outweighs what we believe about the Word of God.

    You agree with the Catholic Faith as defined by their creed more than you believe the following words:

    For us, there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    This is eternal life, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.”

    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.”

    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

    one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

    Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.”

    Who are you kidding DavidL? You are not kidding us and obviously you are not kidding God.

    You are kidding yourself. You have clearly traded in the Roman Catholic faith for the words of eternal life and the most important truth, that there is one God the Father and that he sent his son to save sinners.

    You have rejected all the above scriptures and it is plain for all to see that you have done this. You are deluded if you think you have not. Read them again and again and say to yourself “Do I honestly believe these scriptures”. You will find the answer is NO, (if you are honest).

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