Is Jesus the Logos?

The Word of God

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

  • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
  • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
  • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
  • etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

Viewing 20 posts - 261 through 280 (of 25,961 total)
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  • #9829
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 24 2005,00:49)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 23 2005,22:53)
    and
    in Jn 8:23
    ” …You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world”


    Compare …

    (John 15:19)  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    (John 17:14-16)  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    Jesus said that his disciples were not of the world even as he himself was not of this world!
    Yet, the disciples neither came from heaven nor did they pre-exist their conceptions/births!

    Hmmm!

    Could it be that the disciples were not of the world even in the same sense that Jesus their Master was not of the world … could it be that simple!! Selah.


    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Were the disciples of the world? Yes they were.
    Jn 15.16f
    “You did not choose me but I chose you….I chose you out of the world”

    They were of the world but they were chosen out of the world to be sent into the world. Christ was not chosen out of the world but was from above and was sent from heaven into the world.

    They were to be anointed with the same Spirit that filled Jesus Christ. They were to be filled with the Spirit of Christ and sent into the world from within the world to continue the mission of Christ, to show the power and nature of God and reconcile men with the Father.

    #9830
    david
    Participant

    “Could it be that the disciples were not of the world even in the same sense that Jesus their Master was not of the world … could it be that simple!!”

    YES, it could be that simple. They were to be “not of the world” as Jesus was “not of the world.” Or, as some Bible’s translate it: “no part of the world.”

    John 15:19
    “If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. THAT IS WHY THE WORLD HATES YOU.” (NIV)

    “If you belonged to the world, the world would treat you with affection and would love you as its own. But because you are not of the world [no longer one with it], but I have chosen (selected) you out of the world, the world hates (detests) you.” (Amplified)

    “The world would love you if you belonged to it, but you don't. I chose you to come out of the world, and so it hates you.” (NLT)

    John 15:19 (English Standard Version)
    “If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

    Even if we look at translations such as this, notice it says “because you are not of the world, BUT I HAVE CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD,” therefore the world hates you.” Right after telling that they are “not of the world,” we see what this means, for he goes on to say: “but I have chose you out of the world.” So we are told what being “not of the world” means in the following words. It means they are separate from the world being ruled by Satan with it’s wicked ways. So even if you have a Bible translation that translates it that way, the rest of the sentence doesn’t leave room for your interpretation.
    Also consider that he finishes saying, “therefore the world hates you.” It was because of being “not of this world,” or “no part of this world” (NWT) that the world would hate Jesus’ followers.

    Also, consider this:

    SATAN IS THE GOD OF THIS WORLD
    Over this world of unrighteous human society and its kingdoms, God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil, exercises rulership; in fact, he has made himself “the god” of such world. (Mt 4:8, 9; Joh 12:31; 14:30; 16:11; compare 2Co 4:4.)

    THE WHOLE WORLD IS LYING IN SATAN’S POWER
    God did not produce such unrighteous world; it owes its development to his chief Opposer, in whose power “the whole world is lying.” (1Jo 4:4, 5; 5:18, 19)

    SATAN AND DEMONS ARE THE WORLD RULERS
    Satan and his “wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places” act as the invisible “world rulers [or, cosmocrats; Gr., kosmokrátoras]” over the world alienated from God.—Eph 6:11, 12.

    So Jesus would not be a part of this wicked world ruled by Satan. He would be “not of the world,” or “no part of the world.” And his followers were to remain separate or not belonging to the world and it’s wicked ways either, like Jesus.

    Hence, with great frequency, kósmos (world) is used to signify all non-Christian human society. This is the world that hated Jesus and his followers because they bore witness concerning its unrighteousness and because they maintained separateness from it; such world thereby showed hatred for Jehovah God himself and did not come to know him. (Joh 7:7; 15:17-25; 16:19, 20; 17:14, 25; 1Jo 3:1, 13)

    david.

    #9831
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    Coll 1.13
    ” For he delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son”
    1 Peter 29
    '…that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into His marvellous light”
    Satan is the god of the world and the prince of darkness.
    Jesus said however “I am the light of the world”
    Jn 3.19
    “…the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light”

    The satanic spirit of antichrist hated and killed Christ and continues to hate his followers.

    #9832
    david
    Participant

    Right. I agree. My point was simply that since Satan rules this wicked world, that is why Jesus and his followers are to be no part of this world.

    david.

    #9833
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    Repentance and Baptism takes us out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light and brings us into conflict with our enemy anyway. Yet we are to be the salt of the earth, the light on the hill, the lamp not hidden. Taking ourselves away from men of the world is not the plan of God but making us different to other who see us and can see the light in us is. Isolating ourselves prevents that light from being seen.

    #9834
    david
    Participant

    Again, I agree with you. I never said to remove ourselves from the world. Neither Jesus nor his disciples did that. Nor do we. For how could we carry out the preaching work if we did that? To shun the world's ways is what I was pointing out. I was pointing this out in reponce to Adam Pastor.

    #9835
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    To what extent do you do this? Do you eat with heathens or watch TV? Do your children attend their schools and do you vote? I am interested in wht the word “shun” means to you.

    #9836
    david
    Participant

    I really don't understand why you keep questioning my comments. I keep agreeing with you.
    I don't have children. I've been married for a year.
    I vote for God's government, his Kingdom and place my trust in it.
    When they wanted to make Jesus a king, he withdrew. We similarly don't become involved in politics or hold office. We don't look to the governments of this world for solutions, but look to God's Kingdom. We remain politically neutral. We stay out of wars and don't take part. We pay our taxes, follow the law of the land, unless it conflicts with God's.

    But, what I was saying was that we remain “no part of the world,” meaning, we are separate from worldly attitudes, and influences and it's way of thinking and acting. For, Satan is the ruler of the world. And his influence is strong.

    #9838
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Thank you. I understand better.

    #10392
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Coll 1.15
    “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation..”
    Heb 1.3
    ” and he is the radiance of His glory, and the exact representation of His nature..”

    So how can Christ be such things if he is only a man? Men are made in the image of God but they are not the image. Men are only the breath of God into a body of clay.They are not begotten from the being of God himself. That is why Christ existed before his older cousin John and came in the flesh.

    #10722
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi sultan,
    You may find help here.

    #13323
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Is 1.18 has been discussing the Logos or Word of God.Perhaps the debate could be continued here?

    #13326
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    If the Word was with God in the beginning
    how could also being God
    mean that he was that God he was with?

    #13327
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    The returning Jesus Christ as the mighty and valiant sword bearing King of Kings and Lord of Lords is named, in Revelation 19.13 as the Word of God. Is there any doubt that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is also the Word of God?

    #13369
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Trinityisheresy @ Sep. 26 2003,15:57)
    If it says that in the beginning was the comprehension, or word, and that the word was to God, or with God, or for God, it is impossible to go on and say that it was God. If it was God, it could stand in no relation to God

    Certainly the apostle John was not so unreasonable as to say that someone (“the Word”) was with some other individual (“God”) and at the same time was that other individual (“God”).

    John proves that the Word who was with God “was made flesh” and became Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ was “the Son of God.”

    So it would be proper to say that the Word was the Son of God. For anyone to say that the Word was God, “the only true God,” would be contrary to what the apostle John proves by the rest of his writings.

    In the last book of the Bible, namely, in Revelation 19:13, John calls him “The Word of God,” saying: “And his name is called The Word of God.” (AV; Dy)

    Note that his name is not called “God the Word,” but is called “The Word of God,” or God’s Word. Hence John 1:1 must mean, at most, that the Word was of God.

    EN    ARKHEI       EN     HO     LOGOS,    KAI    HO     LOGOS
    IN    BEGINNING    WAS    THE    WORD,     AND    THE    WORD

       EN     PROS    TON    THN,    KAI    THS    EN     HO     LOGOS.
    WAS    WITH    THE    GOD,    AND    GOD    WAS    THE    WORD.

    HOUTOS    EN     EN    ARKHEI       PROS    TON    THN.
    THIS      WAS    IN    BEGINNING    WITH    THE    GOD.

    It is necessarily without the article (theós not ho theós) inasmuch as it describes the nature of the Word and does not identify His Person

    It would be pure Sabellianism to say “the Word was ho theós [The God ]”.

    the omission of the definite article the before the Greek word theós makes the word theós like an adjective that “describes the nature of the Word” rather than identify his person.

    This fact accounts for it that some translators render it: “And the Word was divine.”

    According to trinitarians the Word was only a third of God, a coequal Second Person in a three-in-one God. However, our consideration of all that John has written has proved how false such a teaching is, a teaching that even the trinitarians themselves cannot understand or explain

    The Word is the Son of God, not the Second Person of God.

    The Four Gospels, by C. C. Torrey, shows the difference between theós with ho (the definite article) and theós without ho by printing his translation as follows: “And the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (Second edition of 1947)

    He is the “only begotten Son” because he is the only one whom God himself created directly without the agency or cooperation of any creature. (John 3:16, AV; AS; Dy)

    Like a word that is produced by a speaker, the Word or Logos is God’s creation, God’s first creation

    To show that he was God’s Word or spokesman, Jesus said to the Jews: “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” Explaining that he spoke for God, Jesus also said: “Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”—John 7:16, 17; 12:50, AV.

    Since Jesus Christ as the Word of God occupies a position held by no other creation of God, we can appreciate why the apostle John wrote, in John 1:1: “And the Word was a god.” We can appreciate also John’s words in John 1:18, as recorded in the most ancient Greek manuscripts: “No man hath seen God at any time: an Only Begotten God, the One existing within the bosom of the Father, he hath interpreted him.” (Ro) Since he is “an Only Begotten God” who has interpreted his heavenly Father to us, we can appreciate the proper force of the words of the apostle Thomas addressed to the resurrected Jesus Christ: “My Lord and my God.”—John 20:28.

    Because Jesus Christ as “the Word of God” is the universal Spokesman for God his Father, the apostle John very fittingly presents Jesus Christ as God’s Chief Witness. The bearing of witness was the chief purpose of the Word or Logos in becoming flesh and dwelling among us creatures of blood and flesh. Standing before the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate when on trial for his life, the Word made flesh said: “To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”—John 18:37, AV.

    In view of his record when he was on earth as God’s chief witness, the “Word of God” in heavenly glory could say, in Revelation 3:14: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” (AV) Consequently the apostle John could pray for grace and peace to the Christian congregations from God and “from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.” (Rev. 1:4, 5, AV)

    1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

    1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
    1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
    1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
    1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
    1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
    1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.
    1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

    1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

    Jesus Christ himself said, “The Father is greater than I am” and referred to the Father as his God, “the only true God.” (John 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12) On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; John 5:19; 8:42; 13:16) Even after Jesus’ ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.—1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.

    Paul showed how first-century Christians correctly understood the relationship between Jesus and his heavenly Father when he wrote that “there is actually to us one God the Father . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.”—1 Corinthians 8:6.

    This Word, or Lo´gos, was God’s only direct creation, the only-begotten son of God, and evidently the close associate of God to whom God was speaking when he said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Ge 1:26)

    1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.
    1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
    1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.
    1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.

    1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

    There was [a time] when [the Son] was not, and, before being born He was not, and He came into existence out of nothing, and the Son of God is of a different hypostasis [ essence ] or substance than the Father, is created, is subject to alteration or change.

    Novatian (c. 200-258 C.E.) commen
    ted: “Since He said ‘one’ thing,[] let the heretics understand that He did not say ‘one’ person. For one placed in the neuter, intimates the social concord, not the personal unity. Moreover, that He says one, has reference to the agreement, and to the identity of judgment, and to the loving association itself, as reasonably the Father and Son are one in agreement, in love, and in affection.”

    Irenaeus (c. 130-200 C.E.): “We may learn through Him [Christ] that the Father is above all things. For ‘the Father,’ says He, ‘is greater than I.’ The Father, therefore, has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge.”—Against Heresies, Book II, chapter 28.8.

    There the Son is called “Mighty God,” ´El Gib·bohr´, not “Almighty God.” That term in Hebrew is ´El Shad·dai´ and applies uniquely to YHWH God.

    ‘’The Father is supreme; the Son is subordinate: the Father is the source of power; the Son the recipient: the Father originates; the Son, as his minister or instrument, executes. They are two in number, but agree, or are one, in will; the Father’s will always prevailing with the Son.”

    The Church of the First Three Centuries says: “The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers, that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ’’

    One of the earliest non-Biblical statements of Christian faith is found in a book of 16 short chapters known as The Didache, or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. Some historians date it before or about the year 100 C.E. There is no Trinity in this.

    God the Father is, as it were, God par excellence.  Olny the father is unoriginate, immortal, immutable, ineffable, invisible, and ingenerate. It is He who has made all things [ including the Son ] out of nothing.

    Apostolic Fathers:

    Clement of Rome’s First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians: “The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ.”

    Let all the nations realize that you are the only God, that Jesus Christ is your Child.”

    Ignatius of Antioch: “the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son,”

    Ignatius shows that the Son was not eternal as a person but was created, for he has the Son saying: “The Lord [Almighty God] created Me, the beginning of His ways.”

    Polycarp says: “Peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour.” Here again, Jesus is distinct from Almighty God.

    Hermas’ the Shepherd: “The Son of God is older than all his creation.” He clearly viewed the Son as a creature.

    The fact is that the Son is not eternal. He was created as a spirit creature of high rank, before other spirit creatures, such as the angels, who were created by means of him

    Son of God is a separate, lesser, subordinate spirit creature whom God created to serve Him in accomplishing His will.

    Apologists:

    Justin Martyr (110 to 165 C.E) says in his Dialogue With Trypho: “The Scripture has declared that this Offspring was begotten by the Father before all things created; and that that which is begotten is numerically distinct from that which begets, any one will admit.”

    Dialogue With Trypho: “There is . . . another God and Lord [the prehuman Jesus] subject to the Maker of all things [Almighty God]; who [the Son] is also called an Angel’’

     Tertullian (c. 160 to 230 C.E.) “The Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: ‘My Father is greater than I’.

    Tertullian’s Against Hermogenes: ‘’That [God] which did not require a Maker to give it existence, will be much more elevated in rank than that [the Son] which had an author to bring it into being.”

    “We should not suppose that there is any other being than God alone who is unbegotten and uncreated’’

    Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 to 215 C.E.) Clement calls the Supreme God “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus”

    Agreeing with Clement of Alexandria Peter, Paul, and the apostle John, who mind you also wrote john 1:1, each state and talk of the ''GOD and Father of JESUS ( LOGOS ) '', this is stated in 1 Peter 1:3, ephesians 1:3, 1:17, 2 Corinthians 1:3, revelation 1:6, 1 corinthians 15:24. Jesus Himself, after He has been resurrecred refers to YHWH God as ''MY GOD'' once in revelation 3:2 and no less than 4  TIMES! in Revelation 3:12. Now, anyone who calls someone MY GOD, obviously is NOT THE GOD. To say that would be silly. Obviously the Father is the Supreme One, THE GOD, without beginning and greater than ALL, including Jesus ( john 14:28, 1 corinthians 11:3 )! The trinity doctrine was merely a heresy invented by Greek ''Church Fathers'' in the 4 century. Arius was simply one man along the long list of predecessors who taught the supremcacy of the Father above all. At around the end of the 2 century, Tertullian supposed that God was ''one substance in three persons'' but even His trinity was not the one existent today, for He said there was a time when the Son was not, as Arius did. He and Theophilus were the first ones to introduce the word trinity and triad, around the end of the 2 century. In the 3 century the ones that came after them expounded on these ideas and very slowly and gradually, toward the end of the 4 century, 200 years LATER, the ''Most Holy Trinity'' was formed. One must keep in mind that trinites were UNIVERSAL in the ancient world, basically almost every pagan religion had a trinity and even Plato himself had one, called the divine trinity. His concept of God later called '' The Good'' by his disciples was represented triadically by Plato, also Aristotle mentioned the number three as unique and Arthur Weigall, in his book The Paganism in Our Christianity on page 198  gives a brief history of the trinity doctrine, saying:

    “In the Fourth Century B.C. Aristotle wrote: ‘All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods; for, as the Pythagoreans say, everything and all things are bound by threes, for the end, the middle, and the beginning have this number in everything, and these compose the number of the Trinity.’

    The ancient Egyptians, whose influence on early religious thought was profound, usually arranged their gods or goddesses in trinities: there was the trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, the trinity of Amen, Mut, and Khonsu, the trinity of Khnum, Satis, and Anukis, and so forth. The Hindu trinity of Brahman, Siva, and Vishnu is another of the many and widespread instances of this theological conception. The Apostles’ Creed, which is the earliest of the formulated articles of Christian faith, does not mention it.
    The words “trinity,” “triune,” “God-man,” “first person,” “second person,” “third person,” “three persons,” do not appear anywhere in the inspired text of either Catholic or Protestant Bibles. Nowhere in the Bible do we find terms such as “God the Son,” or “God the Holy Spirit,” but rather we read “the Son of God,” “the spirit of God,” or just “holy spirit.” Nowhere in Scripture is God revealed as three persons, but always as one God. Now if the very words that are necessary to express the doctrine of the trinity do not appear in the Holy Scriptures, how can we suppose the doctrine to be found or taught therein? Impossible.
    There is no difference wether the Trinity worshiped is Horus, Isis and Osiris or Father Son Holy Spirit, they are both wrong, and only difference with the second one is that it is ''claimed'' to be christian and true, but the pagans also claimed that their previous triads were true also. One thing to remember are the words of Jesus, He said..my k
    ingdom is no part of the world, john 17, and He said they persecuted me, they will persecute you also, now if we expect the world to hate us and persecute us, how could the world so suddenly, 313 ad, and also the Emperor of Rome himself, one of the emperors of an empire of which virtually every previous emperor had persecuted christians come to suppossedly accept christianity? That is truly impossible, UNLESS , in the 300 years since Christ, the christianity of Constantine's time was not the christianity of the time of Jesus and the Apostles which the Romans so vehemently opposed, but a ''paganized christianity'' filled with a multitude of religious errors and pagan customs which is exactly what christianity had become by the time of Constantine. I have a lot more info on this subject and its origin but i will not post unless someone wants me to post them for their learning and knowledge. I have also noticed that when given the numerous and countless verses showing clearly the subjection of the Son to the Father, many so-called Christians simply reject them, and in return brand you a ''heretic'' when you simply quote the truths of the bible. Now, i am not sure wether that is because they are mislead by satan or because they simply do not want to accept the truth, but i sincerely hope they come to realize that without ''accurate'' knowledge of the truth, they will not inherit eternal life, as Jesus said in John 17:3…this means eternal life, their taking in ACCURATE knowledge of YOU, the ONLY True GOD, and the One you SENT FORTH, Jesus Christ.
    :)


    Hi,
    While I do not agree with everything here it is valuable in it's historical perspectives and in other ways.

    #13392
    liljon
    Participant

    The part about the ECF has no value at all because they misquoted and misrepresented every one of them. They also later on misquoted Ignatius

    #13398
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon,
    Can you please expand on this?

    #13481
    Artizan007
    Participant

    Can anyone give me a scripture to state that Jesus was not created?

    I have looked and cannot find one that specifically states this!

    Thanks

    #13490
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi A7,
    There are none.
    He is called”the beginning of the creation of God ” in Rev 3.14
    Coll 1 says he is “before all things” and
    “By Him all things were created” and
    “all things have been created through him and for him”
    Heb 1 says “Through him he made the world”

    Then there is the “monogenes” “only begotten” aspect.

    #13492
    liljon
    Participant

    Are there any that say he was created. (Rev 3:14 have diff translations)?
    Plus in John 8:58 he says he is eternal.
    Also his name was the Eternal Father and even if it isn't ALL things were made thorugh him
    John 1:3, Col1

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