Is Jesus the Logos?

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August 26, 2023 at 4:12 pm#944517
DesireTruth
Participant
@Nick,
Has nothing to do with control, it’s me seeking answers. Answers that you are either afraid to answer for fear of the repercussions it will have on your belief system or you have no answer too. You say there is nothing new under the sun; yet, I have apparently uncovered something “new” because no one, including yourself, can answer the questions asked.
So you don’t feel bad, neither could a former “pastor” and I wasn’t asking my current set of questions, they were simpler like “once saved, always saved”, the trinity, preexisting Jesus, or why do we accept Greek philosophy being merged into Christianity.
I’m looking for answers, either offer some and explain your reasoning or ignore the conversation. After all, isn’t easier to ignore an issue in the hopes it goes away than to address it?
August 26, 2023 at 6:51 pm#944518
Nick
Participant
Hi Desiretruth,
To reject Paul is to reject his Master Jesus Christ
To reject Jesus Christ is to reject the Father Who sent Him.
So whom do you serve?
August 26, 2023 at 7:17 pm#944519
Nick
Participant
Hi Desiretruth,
Brethren, what must we do to be saved? Is the question of the desperate sinner.
Some are not aware of their endangered situation.

August 27, 2023 at 12:01 am#944522
DesireTruth
Participant
@Nick,
“To reject Paul is to reject his Master Jesus Christ”; so Paul saves too?!!? Do you not see the Idolatry in that statement? If this is what you believe, you can keep it; I want nothing to do with it…utterly stunned!
August 27, 2023 at 2:28 am#944524
Berean
Participant

ISAIAH 53 – THE FORBIDDEN CHAPTER
ONE FOR ISRAEL
Long ago the rabbis used to read Isaiah 53 in synagogues, but after the chapter caused arguments and great confusion the rabbis decided that the simplest thing would be to just take that prophecy out of the Haftarah readings in synagogues.1 That’s why today when we read Isaiah 52, we stop in the middle of the chapter and the week after we jump straight to Isaiah 54.
What happened to Isaiah 53, you might be wondering? That is exactly what this article is about.
In the Bible, in the book of Isaiah, chapter 53 the prophet prophesies about the Messiah that he would be rejected by his people suffer and die in agony and that God would see his suffering and death as an atonement for the sins of humanity. Isaiah lived and prophesied about 700 BCE. According to his prophecy in chapter 53 the leaders of Israel would recognize they had made a mistake at the end of days when they rejected the Messiah, so Isaiah put the prophecy in past tense and because he saw himself as part of the people of Israel he used third person plural (we).
AT THE END OF CHAPTER 52 ISAIAH WRITES AN INTRODUCTION TO ISAIAH 53:
“Behold, my servant shall prosper…”
The term “servant” is supposed to connect back to sections earlier in the book that speak of “the Servant of the Lord” (for example, in chapters 42, 49 and 50, where the Messiah is described as a servant that suffers).
“He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.”
This is to emphasize the eminence of the Messiah who would in fact rise from the dead, and ascend to the heavens and sit next to the Father. His actions would give him a higher status that every human king or ruler.
“Just as many were appalled at You—His appearance was disfigured more than any man, His form more than the sons of men.”
Before the Messiah is exalted he would suffer and be humiliated. His body would be abused and tortured so badly that he would be completely disfigured and unrecognizable.
“So He will sprinkle many nations. Kings will shut their mouths because of Him, for what had not been told them they will see, and what they had not heard they will perceive.”
Despite the horrific suffering the day would come when even kings would come to look to him with reverence.
AND NOW, LET’S DIVE INTO CHAPTER 53 ITSELF…
“Who has believed our report?”
This is describing the lack of faith among the people of Israel who don’t believe what they’ve heard.
“To whom is the arm of Adonai revealed?”
Isaiah calls the Messiah the “Arm of the Lord”. Earlier, in chapter 40 Isaiah declares that the “Arm of the Lord” would rule for him. In chapter 51 the gentiles put their hope in the “Arm of the Lord”, and the “Arm of the Lord” would redeem. In chapter 52 the “Arm of the Lord” brings salvation. Now, in 53, Isaiah reveals to us that the “Arm of the Lord” is in fact the Messiah. The Messiah is very much part of God himself.
For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
like a root out of dry ground.
He had no form or majesty that we should look at Him,
nor beauty that we should desire Him.
He was a shoot in spiritually dry ground – there had been no word from God for 400 years.
THE MEANING OF ISAIAH 53 IN THE SCRIPTURE
“He had no beauty that we should desire Him”.
He was not appealing to us. We didn’t want him. His appearance wasn’t particularly glorious or impressive, and the way he showed up didn’t cause people to desire him. In contrast to what rabbinic Halacha teaches today, according to this prophecy, the Messiah would not be born to a prestigious rabbinic family or grow up in the grand residences of wealthy rabbis. We can say with near certainty that the external appearance of the Messiah was nothing extraordinary at all.
He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief,
One from whom people hide their faces.
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
The life of the Messiah was characterized by pain, rejection and suffering. He didn’t get the honor due to the Messiah, but was despised and rejected by the leaders of his people. We considered him some kind of social misfit – someone we might hide our faces from when we pass someone on the street that we are embarrassed to see.
We didn’t think he was the Messiah. We didn’t even register it could be him.
Surely He has borne our griefs
and carried our pains.
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
struck by God, and afflicted.
The Messiah suffered in our place – he carried our sicknesses, our suffering, our pain… and the sins we committed, while our people – while we – thought he was being punished, and that his suffering was God’s punishment for sins that he himself had committed. We didn’t understand that it was for OUR sin.
But He was pierced because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities.
The chastisement for our shalom was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed.
The Hebrew says wounded, pierced. He died. Like someone who has fallen wounded, or someone perforated with bullets – not for any fault of his own, but it was our wrongdoing. He was crushed because of our inequities, our sins – the punishment and discipline we deserved went to him. The “stripes” are hard blows that leave marks, and by his scars we are healed. In exactly this way, hundreds of years later, the prophecy was fulfilled. Yeshua was went to the cross in order to take the death we deserved.
We all like sheep have gone astray.
Each of us turned to his own way.
So Adonai has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
The Hebrew talks of going astray like sheep wander off and get lost. We all, people of Israel, ignored him and went on our way, but despite this, God put all our sin and iniquity on him – on the Messiah.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted
yet He did not open His mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughter,
like a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so He did not open His mouth.
The Hebrew says he was exploited, abused… his dignity and right to a fair trial were taken from him. The Hebrew says he was afflicted – tortured – but he didn’t open his mouth. This shows that he did not resist his unjust sentence. He didn’t try to rebel or escape, and he didn’t take legal representation in spite of the fact he was facing a death sentence, but he was led like a sheep to the slaughter, or to be sheared without resisting the injustices being done to him.
Because of oppression and judgment He was taken away.
As for His generation, who considered?
For He was cut off from the land of the living,
for the transgression of my people—
the stroke was theirs.
They arrested him and took his to trial. As a result of the trial he was “cut off from the land of the living”. A death sentence. Not for his own crimes, but those of his people. In the Scriptures, “My people” always means the people of Israel. The Messiah would die not for his own sin but for the sin of his people – the people who should be taking the punishment for their own sins – but the Messiah took it upon himself. He is the one who died.
His generation wouldn’t care to bring him up in conversation, but would rather sweep his existence under the carpet. So for the last 2000 years, Yeshua the Messiah has been the best kept secret in Judaism, and this is precisely why he was labelled “Yeshu” in Judaism, which stands for “May his name and memory be blotted out”.
His grave was given with the wicked,
and by a rich man in His death,
though He had done no violence,
nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
Even though he was taken out to be executed like a criminal, even though he did nothing wrong, and never lied, in his death he was to be buried in the fancy tomb of a rich man. Yeshua really was killed on the cross and was buried in the grave of a rich man a member of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea. It’s a clear symbol of the ironic situation in which the Messiah receives honor for the noblest deed of them all – taking the death sentence we deserve on himself.
Yet it pleased Adonai to bruise Him.
He caused Him to suffer.
If He makes His soul a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the will of Adonai will succeed by His hand.
So who is responsible for the death of the Messiah? “The Jews”? As so many Catholics have accused us of in the past? Maybe the Romans? They were the ones who actually crucified him? No.
“God was pleased to bruise him”. God is the only one able to forgive and bring salvation to the world and he turned himself into a sacrifice. What kind of sacrifice? A guilt offering. The death of the Messiah was no accident – God used his own stiff-necked people as priests in order to bring about the forgiveness of sins not only for his people Israel, but for the whole of humanity. In contrast to the Yom Kippur sacrifice which was only valid until the following year and just ‘covered over’ sin, the atonement of the Messiah took away our sin once and for all! None of us as human beings are perfect – we are not able to be that perfect sacrifice. Only God himself could do that.
After that comes a very interesting statement:
“He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,”
In spite of the fact he would be killed, he would also prolong his days. He would rise again from the dead and would see the “fruit of his seed”, planted in his resurrection. By the way, we also have a video on the resurrection of Yeshua.
As a result of the anguish of His soul
He will see it and be satisfied by His knowledge.
The Righteous One, My Servant will make many righteous
and He will bear their iniquities.
The Messiah would see and be satisfied by his labor, because many would be made righteous by the suffering he endured, as a righteous man when he took on himself the sins and iniquities of many. All who recognize him as the Messiah will be his “seed” in a spiritual sense.
Therefore I will give Him a portion with the great,
and He will divide the spoil with the mighty—
because He poured out His soul to death,
and was counted with transgressors.
For He bore the sin of many,
and interceded for the transgressors.
The Messiah was the one interceding for us an advocate for us as sinners before a holy God. The Messiah took on his shoulders the sin of all who believe in him. It’s an encouraging prophecy of hope and a future. God is not just interested in forgiveness expressed in words but also demonstrated in actions. That’s why he took on the appearance of a servant and took the punishment that we deserve on himself.
THE JEWISH SAGES THOUGHT ISAIAH 53 WAS ABOUT THE MESSIAH
It’s important to understand we’re not just talking about a Christian interpretation here – the Jewish Sages of ancient times also always interpreted Isaiah 53 to be about the Messiah. In fact, the well-known term “Messiah ben Yosef” is actually from this very text.
In the ancient Jewish translation of Yonatan ben Uzziel (Targum Jonathan) from the first century opened the section with the words “The Anointed Servant” that is to say Ben Uzziel connected the chapter to the Messiah, the Anointed One.
Rabbi Yitzhak Abravanel who lived centuries ago admitted that “Yonatan ben Uzziel’s interpretation that it was about the coming Messiah was also the opinion of the Sages (of blessed memory) as can be seen in much of their commentary.”
The Book of the Zohar recognizes the principle of substitution that the suffering of the Messiah would come to take the suffering that others deserved for their sins. On the verse “Surely He has borne our griefs”, the Book of the Zohar says, “There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel: All of these come and rest upon Him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the transgression of the law.”
Midrash Konen in discussing Isaiah 53 puts the following words in the mouth of Elijah the prophet: “Thus says the Messiah: Endure the sufferings and the sentence your Master who makes you suffer because of the sin of Yisroel. Thus it is written, “He was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities”, until the time the end comes.”
Tractate Sanhedrin in the Babylonian Talmud (98b), writes about the name of the Messiah
“His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”.
In Midrash Tanhuma it says, “Rabbi Nachman says, it speaks of no one but the Messiah, the Son of David of whom it is said, here a man called “the plant”, and Jonathan translated it to mean the Messiah and it is rightly said, “man of sorrows, acquainted with grief”.
Midrash Shumel says this about Isaiah 53: “The suffering was divided into three parts: One for the generation of the Patriarchs, one for the generation of Shmad, and one for the King Messiah”.
The prayers for Yom Kippur, the ones we all know also relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah. The prayer added for Yom Kippur by Rabbi Eliezer around the time of the seventh century: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”
The deeper we go into this prayer for Yom Kippur the more significant it gets. The prayer brings the sense that the Messiah left his people. “The righteous Messiah turned [away]”. That is to say, the Messiah has already come and left. Also, the Messiah suffered in the place of the people, and the sins of people were put on him then after the Messiah suffered, he left them that was the reason for their concern and so the people are praying for his return. A large part of this prayer is taken straight out of Isaiah 53, so from this we can prove that up to the 7th century the Jewish perception – also among the rabbis – was still that Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah.
In Genesis Rabbah, Rabbi Moshe haDarshan says that God enabled the Messiah to save souls but that together with that, he would suffer greatly. Also Maimonides relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah in his Epistle to Yemen. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai wrote, “And Messiah of Ephraim died there and Israel mourns for him as it is written: ‘He is despised and rejected of men’, and he goes back into hiding, for it says: ‘and we hid, as it were, our faces from him’.”
Also in Tractate Sotah 14, Midrash Rabbah Parasha 5, Midrash Tanhuma, Midrash Konen, Yalkut Shimoni and actually the whole Talmud always related the chapter to the Messiah, as did all the rabbis until about a thousand years ago. Everyone agreed that Isaiah 53 prophesies about the Messiah.
RASHI’S REVISION IN THE MIDDLE AGES
Rashi lived, as we know, in Spain, at a time when Jews and Christians lived together and so naturally, arguments arose between them. Christian friends and neighbors of Rashi tried to convince him that Biblical prophecy pointed to Yeshua. Among other prophecies, they of course showed him Isaiah 53. Because the prophecy in Isaiah 53 is so sharp and clear, Rashi had no choice. He obviously didn’t want to admit that Yeshua was the Messiah, so he had to try to reinterpret the prophecy so that it was no longer about the Messiah but instead about the people of Israel. Rashi’s claim was that the suffering servant is a metaphor of the people of Israel who suffered at the hands of the gentiles.
Many different rabbis – Gaon Rabbi Saadia, Rabbi Naphtali ben Asher, and Rabbi Moshe Alshich adamantly opposed Rashi’s new interpretation, and demanded that the Sages of Israel should ignore him and return to the original interpretation, the most famous of among them was Mamonides, who categorically declared that Rashi was completely mistaken.
But today, it is Rashi’s interpretation that is accepted among the rabbis who also are not interested in admitting that Yeshua could have been the Messiah who was rejected, suffered and died exactly as Isaiah prophesied.
A good example comes from Rabbi Haim Rettig, who writes, “Is it possible that any Christian anywhere in the world could fit the description of the Servant of the Lord that is led like a sheep to the slaughter? It cannot be that Isaiah the prophet could prophesy about a Christian event rather than a Jewish one. The prophecy of Isaiah is talking about the people of Israel throughout the generations, the Israel has given itself to be the innocent lamb”. What irony! Despite the fact that rabbis twisted Yeshua’s name into “Yeshu the Christian”, changing his name didn’t turn him into a Christian. The official religion of Christianity was only established in the third century. Yeshua was in fact Jewish, from the line of David, who lived here in Israel.
Also, when Rabbi Rettig claims that the prophecy of Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah but about Israel, that gave itself up as an innocent lamb, can we really say that the people of Israel could be described as “an innocent lamb”? Innocent lamb is a Biblical definition for one without sin, who is blameless, spotless, never does evil and would never sin, but is perfect, pure and clean from sin. Does the people of Israel really this description? It’s enough just to open the paper or listen to the news to get your answer.
And since we’re talking about Isaiah the prophet, we’ll let Isaiah answer this question as well. Notice the words to the people of Israel just six chapters after chapter 53:
“For your hands are defiled with blood and your fingers with iniquity. Your lips have spoken lies, your tongue mutters wickedness. No one sues justly, and none pleads a case honestly. Their feet run after evil. They rush to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity. Violence and ruin are on their highways. They do not know the path of peace, and there is no justice in their tracks. They have made their paths crooked. Whoever walks in them will not experience shalom.”
One thing’s for sure, as far as Isaiah’s concerned Israel was no “innocent lamb”!
HERE ARE A FEW MORE REASONS THAT MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE CHAPTER TO BE ABOUT ISRAEL
The Suffering Servant is consistently presented as an individual and not as a plurality or collective noun, like a people group. Verse 8 says, “For the transgressions of My people He was stricken”. What people was Isaiah part of? The people of Israel, of course. So “my people” refers to the people of Israel. Therefore Israel cannot be the Suffering Servant of the Lord. If the people of Israel was the Servant of the Lord here, who would be “my people”?
Moreover, the Servant of the Lord suffers willingly submissively and without objection. The people of Israel have never suffered willingly! According to the Torah, the suffering of Israel was a result of sin not because of their righteousness whereas the Servant of the Lord suffered as a righteous person not because he had sinned The Servant of the Lord was guiltless but according to the Torah the people of Israel were always punished and suffered because of their sin and the gentiles didn’t get healing from God because Jewish people were persecuted.
The Servant of the Lord died in our place as a sacrifice for our sin. The people of Israel, on the other hand, didn’t suffer for the gentiles but because of their wickedness.
The Servant rose from the dead, but the people of Israel were never “cut off” completely and so could not “rise from the dead”. If the Servant of the Lord is Israel and not the Messiah, the concept of “Messiah ben Yosef” suddenly disappears as if it never existed.
In summary, we did wrong, the Messiah was punished. We sinned, and he suffered. We deserve death, and he was crucified in our place. A perfect God took on the likeness of a Servant in order to reveal himself to us as one of us. He allowed us to humiliate him, reject him, and to torture him to death in order to take our sins upon himself. So it’s also up to us to suffer for the good of others who sin against us. If God who is perfect can forgive us, imperfect as we are, how much more should we forgive one another? This is the wonderful message of the Suffering Servant: The God who loves us has done for us what we could never do for ourselves!
“Generally speaking, Jews excluded from the haftarot those verses on which Christians based the principles of their religious faith… It would appear that the phenomenon is not mere coincidence and that the trend discussed in the above examples and in others that have not been mentioned, was consciously implemented. Although Jews tended to omit certain passages from the Prophets in their haftarah readings, no Jewish scholar ever considered avoiding discussing and studying them as an integral part of the Jewish Scriptures.” – Hananel Mack, Jesus What Happened to Jesus’ Haftarah?, 12/08/2005
Isaiah 53 – The Forbidden Chapter
God bless

August 27, 2023 at 5:59 am#944527
Nick
Participant
So whom do you serve ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN Desiretruth?
August 27, 2023 at 7:31 am#944528
Nick
Participant
Interesting read Berean.
Thanks.
But a bit of nonsense thrown in.
” the messiah is very much part of God Himself”
August 27, 2023 at 8:00 am#944529
Berean
Participant
Nick
the messiah is very much part of God Himself”
Me
No
Originaly , The Son IS begotten from THE FATHER AND IS OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS THE FATHER….

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
🙏
August 27, 2023 at 8:48 am#944530
Nick
Participant
Hi Berean,
SUBSTANCE.?
You revert to catholic theology?
The Son of God is not his Father God.
August 27, 2023 at 9:08 am#944531
Nick
Participant
Hi desiretruth,
Paul said
”It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”
“ but we have the mind of Christ”
”For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus

To reject Paul is to reject the Messiah, Jesus Christ.
To reject Jesus Christ is to reject the Father Who sent him.

August 27, 2023 at 11:24 am#944534
carmel
Participant
Hi Desiretruth,
“To reject Paul is to reject his Master Jesus Christ”; so Paul saves too?!!?

Scriptures:
2Corinthians 12:1 If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed):
but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a man in CHRIST above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): 4That he was caught up into paradise,
and heard SECRET WORDS,
which it is not granted to MAN to utter.
In what sense?
IT IS NOT GRANTED TO MAN, a clear reference to him, MOST ZEALOUS PHARISEE,
TO UTTER”?
Let’s keep on reading the scriptures!
Galatians 1:11 For I give you to understand, brethren,
that the gospel which was
PREACHED BY ME is not according to man.
12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it;
but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13For you have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion: how that, beyond measure, I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it. 14And I made progress in the Jews’ religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more abundantly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15But when it pleased him,
who SEPARATED me from my mother’s womb,
HOW AND BY WHAT PROCESS DT, DID GOD SEPARATE PAUL FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB?
and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son IN ME,
HOW DT, DID GOD REVEAL JESUS IN PAUL?
that I might preach him among the Gentiles,
immediately I condescended not to flesh and blood. 17Neither went I to Jerusalem, to the apostles who were before me:
but I went into Arabia,
WHY AND WHAT DID PAUL EXPERIENCE WHEN HE WENT INTO THE DESERT?
REVELATIONS, AND THE TRUTH OF THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES?
and again I returned to Damascus.18Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days. 19But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord.
20Now the things which I write to you, behold, before God,
I lie not.
21Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea, which were in Christ: 23But they had heard only: He, who persecuted us in times past, doth now preach the faith which once he impugned:
24And they glorified God IN ME.
FIRST PAUL IN GALATIANS 1:16 ABOVE SAID THAT GOD REVEALED
HIS SON IN HIM,
WHILE IN THE ABOVE PAUL SAID THAT THE CHURCHES OF JUDEA
GLORIFIED GOD IN HM!
PAUL CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD!
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men,
but as it is in TRUTH, THE WORD OF GOD,
which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
PAUL IN THE ABOVE CONFIRMED THAT
HIS WRITING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!
“THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD JESUS WITHIN PAUL!
THUS AS MUCH AS JESUS THE MAN, REVEALED GOD WITHIN HIM WITH HIS GOSPEL TO ISRAEL.
PAUL REVEALED JESUS, GOD, WITHIN HIM WITH HIS GOSPEL TO THE GENTILES. CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is able to establish you,
according to MY GOSPEL,
and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery,
which was kept secret from eternity,
26(Which NOW is made manifest by
the scriptures of the prophets,
according to the precept of the eternal God, for the obedience of faith,) known among all nations;
1Corinthians 14:37 If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual,
let him know the things that I WRITE TO YOU
that they are the commandments of the Lord.
AGAIN PAUL CONFIRMED ABOVE THAT HIS PREACHING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!
THIS IS ALSO ASSERTED IN
2Peter 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him,
hath written to you:
16As also in all his epistles,
speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood,
which the unlearned and unstable wrest,
as they do also the other scriptures,
to their own destruction.
PAUL’S WRITINGS AND EPISTLES IN THE ABOVE ARE EQUIVALENTLY SCRIPTURES.

1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you FIRST OF ALL,
which I also received:
how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures:
IN THE ABOVE DID PAUL REFER TO THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES AS HE THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE AS A FANATIC PHARISEE BELIEVED, ACCORDING TO HIM AFTER JESUS’REVELATIONS,
DUNG?
Well mentioned in
Philippians 3:7 But the things that were gain to me, the same I have counted loss for Christ. 8Furthermore I count ALL THINGS to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and count them but as dung, that I may gain Christ:
Acts 17:10 But the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea. Who, when they were come thither, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures,
whether these things were so.
12And many indeed of them believed,
and of honourable women that were Gentiles, and of men not a few.

Acts 18:28 For with much vigour he convinced the Jews openly,
shewing by the scriptures,
that Jesus is the Christ.
DT. ANSWER PLEASE:
WHO SAVED THE GENTILES?

Peace and love in Jesus Christ
August 27, 2023 at 6:55 pm#944536
Berean
Participant
Nick
SUBSTANCE.?
You revert to catholic theology?
The Son of God is not his Father God.
Me
They are Two persons IN THE BIGINNING AND NOW
The Son OF GOD IS not HIS Father God
He IS God in infinity but not in indentity, , personnality, individuality
🙏

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of 👉his person👈, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
👉his person👈
person👇
hypostasis
hoop-os’-tas-is
from a compound of upo-hupo 5259 and isthmi-histemi 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, 👉essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):–confidence, confidant, person, substance.👈
Hebrews 1:3 N-GFS
GRK: χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ φέρων
NAS: and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds
KJV: of his person, and
INT: [the] exact expression of the substance of him upholding
August 27, 2023 at 7:28 pm#944537
Nick
Participant
Hi Berean,
Complicated theology added to scripture to try to rationalise the Spiritual words.
Following deceived men into their ditch.
Be Berean.
August 27, 2023 at 11:12 pm#944538
DesireTruth
Participant
@Nick,
“Be Berean”; that is precious, gave me a good chuckle when I read it.
You ridicule Berean for not verifying what he is told and ridicule me for verifying what I’m told. Tell us what parts of scripture are we to verify and which are we to just blindly accept? Sounds like a contradiction to me. What’s humorous about that statement is you have verified nothing I have said and reject it because it doesn’t align with your beliefs. When are you going to “be Berean”?
August 28, 2023 at 12:48 am#944552
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
What you posted is “messianic Judaism”, a branch of “christianity” where Jews can keep their identity and customs, but follow the “rules” of the christian system. This organization, One for Israel, makes the claim Isa 53 is “the forbidden chapter”, which is a lie. This chapter isn’t “forbidden”, you can find studies done by Jewish teachers on this chapter all over the internet. If this organization will lie about this, what else will they lie about?
KJV: “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.”
Hebrew translation: “And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.”
Why are the two above translations not the same, which translation is correct, and which am I suppose to believe?
August 28, 2023 at 2:28 am#944553
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Desire Truth……If I were you I would believe the KJV, and others by far before I would believe the Jew’s renditions, who constantly reject Jesus as the MESSIAH, who they by their evil hand had put to death. They rejected Jesus then and Now also, and will be rejected by him, at his return , unless they repent. what you think you have uncovered is nothing new, the Jews have been teaching that for many years, what you have done is fallen from grace and come under their condemnation.
Repent and return and separate yourself from those corrupt Jewish teachers, who are still seeking to justify themselves for killing Jesus our lord .
Seeing you have joined them and believe they’re false narratives, about rejecting Jesus, Paul and the other Apostles, then you will get to join them in their judgement at the return of Jesus Christ, the true Messiah of God the Father> unless you repent, “your call” .
You had it right once, concerning Jesus as the true Messiah, why have you let those “Blind Jews”, trip you up?, Sad!
peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

August 28, 2023 at 5:43 am#944555
Nick
Participant
Hi Desiretruth,
Faith, even blind faith, is needed for you to wean yourself from your reliance on your own perceptions. You are your own foundation and you need the mind of Christ. God is greater than your perceptions allow you to see.
August 28, 2023 at 6:45 am#944556
Berean
Participant
@ desire Truth
Why are the two above translations not the same, which translation is correct, and which am I suppose to believe?
Me
I recommend the KJ BIBLE
BUT I KNOW YOU WILL NOT FOLLOW THIS ADVICE.
August 28, 2023 at 6:56 am#944557
Berean
Participant
Nick
Complicated theology added to scripture to try to rationalise the Spiritual words.
Following deceived men into their ditch.
Be Berean.
Me
Complicated theology added to scripture to try to rationalise the Spiritual words.
Following deceived men into their ditch.
Me
I beleive that Jesus is the divine Son of God made flesh for our salvation.
🙏
August 28, 2023 at 6:58 am#944558
Nick
Participant
Hi DT,
Paul had to fall from his pedestal and become blind to begin to see.
Only then could he understand that Knowledge puffs up but love edifies,
And that the weakness of God is greater than our strength.
Take care.
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Scriptures:

and heard SECRET WORDS,
which it is not granted to MAN to utter.

PREACHED BY ME is not according to man.

12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it;

but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

who SEPARATED me from my mother’s womb,

16To reveal his Son IN ME,

but I went into Arabia,

I lie not.

24And they glorified God IN ME.

HIS SON IN HIM,

GLORIFIED GOD IN HM!

PAUL CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD!

but as it is in TRUTH, THE WORD OF GOD,

HIS WRITING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!

according to MY GOSPEL,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

26(Which NOW is made manifest by

the scriptures of the prophets,

that they are the commandments of the Lord.

hath written to you:

16As also in all his epistles,

as they do also the other scriptures,

which I also received:

DUNG?

Well mentioned in

and count them but as dung, that I may gain Christ:

whether these things were so.

12And many indeed of them believed,

that Jesus is the Christ.

DT. ANSWER PLEASE:

WHO SAVED THE GENTILES?

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Is Jesus the Logos?

Scriptures:

and heard SECRET WORDS,which it is not granted to MAN to utter.

PREACHED BY ME is not according to man.

12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it;

but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

who SEPARATED me from my mother’s womb,

16To reveal his Son IN ME,

but I went into Arabia,

I lie not.

24And they glorified God IN ME.

HIS SON IN HIM,

GLORIFIED GOD IN HM!

PAUL CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD!

but as it is in TRUTH, THE WORD OF GOD,

HIS WRITING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!

according to MY GOSPEL,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

26(Which NOW is made manifest by

the scriptures of the prophets,

that they are the commandments of the Lord.

hath written to you:

16As also in all his epistles,

as they do also the other scriptures,

which I also received:

DUNG?

Well mentioned in

and count them but as dung, that I may gain Christ:

whether these things were so.

12And many indeed of them believed,

that Jesus is the Christ.

DT. ANSWER PLEASE:

WHO SAVED THE GENTILES?

Recent Replies

Forums

Forum Topics

POPULAR WRITINGS

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ABOUT THIS SITE

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Navigation

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and heard SECRET WORDS,
which it is not granted to MAN to utter.