Does Hell last forever?

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October 24, 2016 at 1:40 pm#817623
942767
Participant
Hi Brian:
There are only two scriptures in the OT where I see the word “eternal”.
They are:
Deuteronomy 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say,…
Isaiah 60:15 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
The Hebrew word in the first scripture is “Qedem” and according to strong’s concordance the meaning is:
קֶדֶם qedem, keh’-dem; or קֵדְמָה qêdᵉmâh; from H6923; the front, of place (absolutely, the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward):—aforetime, ancient (time), before, east (end, part, side, -ward), eternal, × ever(-lasting), forward, old, past.
In the other scripture the Hebrew word is Owlam, and the meaning according to Strong’s is:
ם ʻôwlâm, o-lawm’; or עֹלָם ʻôlâm; from H5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:—alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-)) ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).
And the context of its use in Isaiah gives us what is meant when it continues saying:
I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
He will make them “a joy of many generations”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
October 24, 2016 at 1:48 pm#817624
942767
Participant
But Brian, I believe that we must also research the meaning of the words “Hell”. die, death and judgment in order to arrive at the truth both in the OT and in the New Testament.
Love in Christ,
Marty
October 24, 2016 at 2:19 pm#817625
Brian
Participant
Marty,
Yeah, I’ve researched all of those words and more. 🙂 This is a good start, but you can’t go off of the Strong’s alone because Strong’s gives you all the different ways our translations have translated those words. It does not give the actual meaning of the word, often times, though. That’s why I mentioned going to a Hebrew lexicon online and a Koine Greek lexicon online, as well. A lexicon gives you the actual meaning with background of the word within the culture.I’ll give you the meaning of “hell” real quick. In the OT,
I’ll give you the meaning of “hell” real quick. In the OT, hell always refers to “the grave,” and more accurately translated, means “the unseen” or “below.” It’s talking about the figurative place below the ground. It really does just mean “the grave” in Hebrew, for the most part. There’s really nothing special about that word in the OT. They believed in soul sleep. A person dies and their spirit sleeps until a future time of resurrection. In the NT, hell comes from the word Hades, usually, which is used because it’s the word the Greeks use to describe their version of hell. They got that belief from the other Pagan religions prior to them a few hundred years before. There is one or two other words used for it in the NT, but I forget what they are at the moment. None of them help define hell, though. In the NT, anything described by “fire” is a metaphor for refinement. It’s all referncing the Refiner’s Fire. When they refined gold back then, they would melt it down, scoop the impurities off the top, then let it cool. That would purify it. So that’s what all passages about “fire” mean in the NT. That’s why Jesus says “all will be salted with fire.” In other words, everyone will be purified in one way or another according to Jesus.
I apologize that I didn’t give you better direction when looking up the words eternal, judgment, and punishment. I forgot to mention that when you do a search, you have to search different translations in order to get all of the different verses about hell. What you’re looking for when searching the OT is “eternal punishment” and “everlasting contempt.” If you’ll search for “eternal judgment verses” and “everlasting contempt verse” in google, you’ll find the two OT verses that refer to hell. Then you can look up everlasting judgment, everlasting fire, eternal judgment, and eternal punishment in the NT to find the verses about hell. The King James is usually a good one to use to search for all of the verses.
Anytime hell is talked about in the OT, the word used to describe it is either owlam or…I’m blanking on the other word, but it has owlam in it and I can give you its meaning. Owlam, in Ancient Hebrew, literally means, “Over the horizon.” They were nomads, so whatever was over the horizon was “the future,” because they couldn’t see it yet and didn’t know what awaited them there. So “owlam” means “future.” Notice how Strong’s gave you several translations. Only one or two of those are accurate. The rest are ways that our translations have translated that word which are incorrect. So a Hebrew lexicon would give you the definition I just gave you, which is the accurate definition. So, when you see everlasting, or everlasting to everlasting, or eternal in the OT, it’s always owlam or that other word I’m blanking on. That other word litearlly means, “Over the horizon and back again,” which means WAY into the future. This is important, because it describes which age in which punishment is happening. In the OT, it appears there’s future punishment, and then punishment that’s even farther in the future. That could mean that there’s hell and then there’s the lake of fire later. Both are described as correctional, though…so that’s important to note. The book Hope Beyond Hell explains all of this in more detail.
The NT is sourcing off of those words when it’s describing hell. And it’s having to do so using words from the Greek language that aren’t truly sufficient to describe things in an Ancient Hebrew way. So they do the best they can with the language they’re existing in. lol That’s how it always is with translation. We can never get a perfect translation because we can never truly understand a culture 100% and our words are never exactly like their words.
You’ver got a good start there, Marty. Keep digging deeper.
–Brian
October 24, 2016 at 2:26 pm#817626
Brian
Participant
Marty,
Don’t forget how “owlam” and “aion/aionios” are used. “Aion,” in Greek, means “age.” But when you put “aion” next to a word we know is eternal (like God), then “aion” means “eternity.” So even though “aion,” which means “age,” means a period of time, it means eternity when paired with something like “God,” because we know God is eternal. We know life is eternal, as well, so when “aion” is paired with life, it means “eternal life.” But judgment/punishment are correctional according to their Greek words, which means they have to be temporary. Therefore, when “age” is used next to judgment or punishment, it really means “age” or “future” or “age-bound” judgment/punishment.
I’m not sure if you’ll find that in the Greek lexicon or not, but definitely look for it.
By the way, I’m impressed. Most people just immediately discount this stuff and won’t study it. You’re going further than most do.
–Brian
October 25, 2016 at 10:06 am#817629
942767
Participant
Hi Brian:
What I was indicating to you, is that we should look at the OT first, and determine what is meant by those words for that dispensation. Judgment for those in the OT has already occurred. Therefore, as you state, the term “hell” in the OT is the grave. They will not be resurrected to endure any further punishment. They will be resurrected in the body of Christ if they died in the faith.
In the NT, judgement for those who die in their sins is delayed until the very end.
Matthew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
John 12:
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.
So, I believe what we need to do is determine what is meant by “eternal death” and hell in the NT. We know that in the book of Revelation there is what is called the
“second death”, and so, there must be a first death, and we know by the scriptures that all of humanity will suffer the “first death”.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Based on my study of the scriptures, the first death is spiritual separation from God followed by a physical death. It is from the state of the first death, in the state of being spiritually separated from God, that God is calling us into a relationship with Him through the gospel. It is in this world that those who have come into relationship with God learn to apply the Word of God in their daily life. The world is the “refining fire”.
Ephesians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
And so, I guess what we need to determine to answer your question “about hell” is to find out what is meant by “the second death”.
Love in Christ,
Marty

October 25, 2016 at 11:30 am#817630
Brian
Participant
Marty,
I appreciate your desire to dig and find the truth. Revelation basically is saying that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Unfortunately, that doesn’t give us any indication of whether hell is eternal nor not. All of this studying comes down to a few simple things:
1. Is the punishment spoken of in the NT correctional or not?
2. What do the words aion, aionian, and aionios mean?
That’s really all we need to know. Either hell is correctional or it is not. No need to take your study further than that. The Lake of Fire has the same definition as eternal punishment or eternal judgment. They’re all “eternal.” The question is whether eternal is actually eternal or if it’s temporary. The only other issues are whether the Lake of Fire is eternal or not and if it’s corrective or not since it is a state that happens to people after hell.
To determine this, I look at a couple of statements in the Bible. Paul speaks of a final state of all things where Jesus takes everything under heaven and earth and gives it to the Father. This happens, according to Paul’s prophecy, after judgment has happened. This is like a final step of it all. And so Jesus was given everything and He’s said to be in all and through all. It’s all his. That includes hell and the Lake of Fire. All of it is his.
The next statement the Bible makes that helps out is how it says that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. So I look at it like this–unconditional love doesn’t force anyone to do anything, and yet everyone is bowing the knee to Jesus and confessing him as Lord of all. Therefore, whatever happens in the Lake of Fire must end up purifying everyone, because they’re all worshiping Jesus willingly at that point.
But if you want to go further than that, there’s really no way. Hope Beyond Hell is a good book to read for all of the mechanics of this stuff. At the End of the Ages is a good one, too. Both can be obtained very cheap from Hope Beyond Hell’s website.
I’ll also point out that if hell is eternal, it would not be thrown into the Lake of Fire…because that would mean it ends and becomes the Lake of Fire. So hell, itself, cannot be eternal. The Lake of Fire could possibly be eternal, but we have no indication of that in the Bible since the terminology for it is unclear. All we have are the beliefs of the Ancient Hebrews to go off of, and we only get those from the Bedouins and from the Jews today. The Bedouins have a much more pure form of those beliefs. The Jews beliefs have been tainted over the years due to being captive in different countries at times. Either way, both groups believe hell is temporary because God forgives. They believe hell is a kindness to break people’s resistance which is calling all of their pain.
Let me know when you find the NT word in the Koine Greek lexicon for “punishment” used in the NT. That one is very important. When you see that it’s correctional, you’ll realize that hell cannot be eternal. And this makes a ton of sense, because God love unconditionally, and our human wills are not more powerful than God’s will. If God can do all things and is all powerful and all wise and His will is that all repent, then He can build a system to make that possible. If He didn’t build our existence that way, then He’s openly going against His own will, which makes no sense.
–Brian
October 25, 2016 at 1:02 pm#817631
942767
Participant
Brian, what I am finding in the NT is that most of the time when the word “eternal” is used it is referring to eternal life with the exception of Jude 7 and Hebrews 6:2.
According to the scripture in Jude verse 7, the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah is an example to us of what the vengeance will be. We know that the word “eternal” cannot mean that the fire is an ongoing fire. It is not still burning.
The word translated as hell in the NT is either Gehenna, hades, or tartaroo. When it is referring to Hades, it is the grave. The Lord Jesus stated the following:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And here, it means Gehenna:
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
Hell is the place of the future punishment called “Gehenna” or “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
The KJV uses “everlasting” punishment:
Matt 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o’-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
And as you said, aionios could be for a period of time, and we have already seen by the scripture in Jude verse 7 that Sodom and Gommorah that the fire that destroyed them is not still burning. However, there is no indication that they were there for a period of time to receive correction, as you seem to indicate. They have been destroyed, and that is what the second death appears to be.
2 Thes 1:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Love in Christ,
Marty
October 25, 2016 at 1:35 pm#817632
Brian
Participant
Marty,
You’re missing vital steps to this process. That’s what causes false doctrines. Research needs to be extremely thorough and objective.
You never looked at a Greek Lexicon to get the real definition of the words. As I explained before, the Strong’s is merely giving what the different translations have defined the word as, including our best guess at what the word means. But those are not necessarily the definitions of the word. The only way to understand what the word really means is to use a Lexicon. But there’s even more that needs to be done.
You must also understand how the word works grammatically in the language.
As I said before, the word “aion” means age. The only time it means eternal is when it’s paired with something that’s eternal. The problem is that we don’t know if judgment is eternal, but translators assume it is, and then translate the word to mean eternal.
What we do know is that the word for vengeful punishment is used only once in the NT to describe Saul’s persecution of the Christians. All other uses of punishment are the word that means corrective punishment. But you aren’t aware of that because you didn’t use a Lexicon to look up the actual meanings of the two different “punishment” words in the NT.
You are correct that there are 3 different names for hell in the NT, but again, none of those are important. All that’s important are the adjectives that describe hell, because we’re only interested in hell’s nature.

October 25, 2016 at 1:46 pm#817633
Brian
Participant
Marty,
I have a suggestion to speed up your study and make it more objective. Forget everything you know for right now and just study as if you think he’ll could very well be eternal. The reason for this is to keep your mind from constantly trying to disprove it. Until you learn this view and it’s foundational components and it’s arguments, you have no way to debate it properly. By learning it as if it were true, you gain the advantage of being open-minded and objective while you study. It makes study a lot quicker and easier. After you learn the view well, then you put on your Christianity lenses and view it again to see if it fits into Christianity and the Bible.
The way you’re studying now isn’t objective. You’re not digging really deep by going into a Lexicon. You’re stopping at the Strong’s definition because it validates your belief. You must go deeper, because Strong’s isn’t showing the actual definition of the word. Lexicon give actual definitions and understandings of the words within the culture, including sayings.
The only other thing you can do is research the history and origin of the fiery hell belief, and how it was made the prominent view. Don’t stop at what validates your beliefs like most people do. Most people just want to confirm that they’re right. Dig deeper than them. Take no one’s word for it. Decide on your own, but only after you’ve truly dug deep.
–Brian
October 25, 2016 at 1:49 pm#817634
942767
Participant
Hi Brian:
Our commission from our Lord, is that we should preach the gospel to whomever will hear us. No one has to go to hell unless that is what they choose. It definitely is not a place where I want to go.
Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
October 25, 2016 at 2:31 pm#817635
942767
Participant
Hi Brian:
Thanks, for the advice. It is good advice. Before I go digging, I always ask my Father and God for understanding, and that is the best advice that I can give anyone.
It was nice talking to you, and I want the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.
Love in Christ,D
Marty
October 25, 2016 at 4:13 pm#817636
Brian
Participant
Marty,
So you don’t want to dig deeper to learn the truth about the Greek words that will tell you what hell really is?

October 25, 2016 at 4:31 pm#817637
Brian
Participant
It took me all of a few minutes to look up the two different words translated as punishment in the NT in an online lexicon. And like I said…the one used with hell is corrective punishment, and the one Paul uses to describe what he did to the Christians was the vengeful punishment. Very simple. Very quick to research.
Jesus is the one who uses the word for correctional punishment to describe hell rather than the word Paul used to describe vengeful punishment. Do you believe Jesus didn’t know Greek very well and used the wrong word to describe hell? Would Jesus have made such a careless mistake?
It sounds like you’re perfectly fine looking up just the bare minimum to confirm your beliefs, but you’re scared to look deeper and find out you’re wrong. It would’ve taken you all of about 10 minutes to research loosely and maybe 30 minutes to an hour to do a more thorough search. But you were unwilling to do so. So no, you do not dig deep like you claimed. It’s behavior like that which causes people to not like Christians. It means some Christians can’t be trusted to actually do good research if it means it could disprove there beliefs (Christians like you, I mean). Have some integrity. Do what you said you’d do. Research it deep. Either hell is corrective or its vengeful. All you have to do is look up the words in the lexicon. That’s it. Just do it. If you won’t, I’ll gladly post it in here to show what research you refused to do.
October 26, 2016 at 9:33 am#817642
Brian
Participant
1 Timothy 4:10 “Jesus Christ, savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY those who believe.”
Why would Timothy say that Jesus is the savior of all men, but especially of those who believe? That means he actually saved everyone, but those who believe are even more blessed than those who don’t believe. So those who don’t believe are still saved. If those who don’t believe aren’t saved, Timothy never would’ve wrote that. He would’ve wrote, “Jesus Christ, savior of all men who believe.”
By the way, there are several translations of the Bible that don’t once mention hell or eternal punishment from cover to cover. Young’s Literal Translation, 1891, is one of those and it’s pretty old. Notice it’s a “literal” translation. When you translate the Bible literally, it takes a lot of our own doctrinal influence out of it. That’s why Young’sLiterall Translation never mentions hell or eternal punishment or even the idea of it. Because it literally is not in the Bible, in more than one way.
The following are translations that don’t mention hell or the concept of eternal punishment in them at all, just like Young’s Literal Translation:
The Scarlet’s New Testament in 1798, The New Testament in Greek and English, 1823, 20th Century New Testament, Ravaham’s Emphasized (sp?), Fenton’s Holy Bible in Modern English, Weymouth’s New Testament in Modern Speech, The Jewish Publication Society Bible 1917. That’s just part of the list. There are more. Check out Tentmaker.org for more. You can also find the Church Father’s statements about hell being temporary on that website. It’s also important to note that the Augustine, who insisted that the ruler of the empire snuff out all belief in a redemptive hell, is likely responsible for the Dark Ages, because that was the beginning of the government burning writings that went against its religious beliefs. Also, the idea of hell admittedly came from the Egyptian leaders and the Roman leaders, all of whom wanted to control their subjects through fear. We know this because the sophists (the famous Western philosophers) tell us where those beliefs originated. So we have tons of proof showing us where the idea of a fiery hell came from. And unfortunately, Christians don’t like to study really deep (as was just shown through Marty’s example), so they stay stuck in their beliefs which have no foundation. The Bible does not teach an eternal hell in its original manuscripts or their copies.
There’s a good reason that the only people Jesus spoke out against were the religious. That’s something to really think about. Mainstream Christianity are the new Pharisees most likely. It always happens that way. Give mankind a few hundred years and they’ll screw up what God gave them. The Hebrews did it a few times and Christians in the past 1600 years are no different. Why do you think the Catholics killed millions upon millions of Christians and Jews? It’s because fear-induced religion causes crazy things like that to happen. There’s no love in fear. God tells us not to fear and that love is the opposite of fear. Therefore, He does not want us to fear Him or hell. And no verse that’s properly translated will say anything opposing that. God doesn’t need hell to get people saved. He uses love and love alone. You, like the Pharisees, are willingly turning a blind eye to what the Bible says. Again, I’m not saying I’m correct or universalism is correct. I’m strictly saying that the Bible doesn’t teach an eternal hell, but rather a temporary redemptive hell. I wouldn’t have any clue if my beliefs are correct or not. There’s little we can know for sure in this life. But if you guys claim to get your beliefs from the Bible, you’re sorely mistaken. You’ll want to dig deeper. Good luck.
October 26, 2016 at 6:23 pm#817646
terraricca
Participant
I wonder what Paul meant when he said ,”it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God” if you just die then what is so terrible about that ? we all have experience it already once ,
tell me how can the wicked paid for all his wrong doing ?
October 27, 2016 at 3:34 pm#817660
Brian
Participant
Terraricca,
Excellent question. Jesus answers that question with the parable of the man whose debt is forgiven by the king. When the man doesn’t forgive his debtors like the king forgave his debt, the king puts him in the dungeon until the last cent of his debt is paid. In other words, there is an end to his imprisonment. If Jesus were describing a hell that is eternal, his parable would’ve had the king say that the man would never get out of the dungeon. So it seems that the wicked pay for their sins in hell for a period of time, and this humbles them enough so that they accept Jesus and move on to heaven. They’re let out of the dungeon, so to speak. So falling into the hands of the living God would definitely be terrifying if a person must suffer hell for a while after they die. Is that not payment enough?
Wouldn’t you agree that suffering in hell, even for a little while, is terrifying and is sufficient payment?
Also, the Bible says that God is just. The Law shows this by having fair punishments for the crimes committed.
So, tell me this, if a man sins for 80 years then dies, is it more just for him to have to endure an eternity of punishment or 80 years of punishment?
I’m curious if you even read my other posts completely because it sounds like you think I don’t believe people go to hell at all. But I clearly stated, many times, that people go to hell temporarily and suffer judgment which purifies them and gets them to heaven eventually. Your English isn’t really good, so I suppose it’s possible you’re misunderstanding my posts.
If you do not answer my questions which are in bold letters, then I will not respond to you.
-Brian
October 27, 2016 at 7:22 pm#817671
terraricca
Participant
Brian
Jesus said that every man will be judged by his own judgment ,think this one over
this to me means that you are going to judge yourself but with a twist in it ;you wont be able to lie for the judgment of God is righteousness and truth
now i do not believe all men go to heaven scriptures don’t say that ,some are called to join Christ but not all some are to fulfill God’s will on earth after the final resurrection and judgment are over ,
October 28, 2016 at 12:18 am#817682
Brian
Participant
Terraricca,
I said that I would not respond to you unless you answered my questions, which you did not. When you’re ready to answer the questions from my last post, then I’ll respond to your post. It’s called respect for one another rather than dodging questions because you have no good answers to support your doctrines. I didn’t ask you if you believed everyone would go to heaven. I asked you very specific questions with very easy answers.
–Brian
October 28, 2016 at 12:26 pm#817685
terraricca
Participant
Brian
1)Wouldn’t you agree that suffering in hell, even for a little while, is terrifying and is sufficient payment?
2)So, tell me this, if a man sins for 80 years then dies, is it more just for him to have to endure an eternity of punishment or 80 years of punishment?
==================================================================================================================================================
1a) when we die we do not go to hell or in punishment but in a wait position until the time of judgment (resurrection must first take place
2a) the time that a person spent on earth to accept God’s message is not relevant ,for the sole reason of us being here is to join our God and father will and stop doing our own will for it destroy’s us
again resurrection must occur first before judgment can start ,and that will not occur before the end of this age /return of Jesus
October 28, 2016 at 12:39 pm#817686
Brian
Participant
Terraricca,
Thank you for answering my questions. Now I understand your belief better.
So, if a person goes to the wait position and then is resurrected and judged, where will he go from there? If he’s saved, he goes into the millennial kingdom? If he’s not saved, he goes to hell? I’m asking so I can better understand your belief on hell.
–Brian
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