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Basic logic

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  • August 16, 2015 at 5:40 am#802190
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Hi Nick, Gene, Kerwin,

    Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier. When there are verses that seems to contradict we should try an interpretation that reconciles them. I am surprised how you can disagree, but as far as i recall there are many verses that show children inheriting their fathers’ sins. The only exception that i recall seem to be Ezekiel chapter 18. So we should try to interpret Ezekiel 18 in the light of the other verses.

    Exodus 20:4-6 (also in Deutronomy 5)

    “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

    Here from the word “for I …” this shows it is a general characteristics of God and not just for the sin of idolatry. In the prophets we see often God criticizing many people as being children of sinners. Jesus himself says in

    Mathew 23:31-32

    So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

    In the Ezekiel 18 we see that God assures that even a sinner’s son if he does not sin will not die for his father’s sin. How do we reconcile this with the above verses. The clue is in Ezekiel 18 itself. Here we see that if a sinner turns from his sins then too he won’t die for his own sins.

    To bring these together even though the son inherits his father’s sins, he will die for it only if he too sins.

    (If you are interested another theory i have is that we had pre-existences. But we sinned in our pre-existence. Since God and Jesus realized that we won’t be able to pay for our sins by our work, they created this new world and send us here so that Jesus can pay for our sins. God hid himself from us in this world so that we can be justified by faith and Jesus can pay back our sins using our faith. It is like if we cannot work and pay back a debt, we buy a stock and the stock price increases and using that we pay back our debt. Here what God asks us is to bet everything we have on Jesus his only begotten Son.

    In this theory when we are born into this world our fathers’ are chosen such that their outstanding sin matches our outstanding sin from the pre-existence. In this way even though we inherit our father’s sins that are really our own sins.)

    Nick,

    Just because Jesus was born without sin does not mean he did not have the temptation to sin. He subjected himself to the temptations for my sake and also lived a hard life for my sake. He died on the cross for mine and others’ sins. Yes, i follow him.

    -Wilson

     

    August 16, 2015 at 6:00 am#802191
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    Yes, many were credited with righteousness before the new covenant but those that become fully mature in Christ are pure and righteous before God.

    It is superior to being credited with righteousness.

    August 16, 2015 at 7:17 am#802192
    terraricca
    Participant

    kw

    so there are different righteousness and different faith in the true God ?

    Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—
    Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    MT 8:11 “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;

    MT 22:32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    MK 12:26 “But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’?

    LK 13:28 “ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

    JN 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “ If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.

    JN 8:56 “ Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

    RO 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

    enjoy

    August 16, 2015 at 11:50 am#802196
    kerwin
    Participant

    terraricca,

    so there are different righteousness and different faith in the true God ?

    There is a righteous under the Law and a righteousness that is through faith from first to last.

    Abraham existed before both.

    August 16, 2015 at 1:48 pm#802205
    terraricca
    Participant

    kw

    so what you said before was wrong right ?

    August 23, 2015 at 11:26 am#802370
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Wilson,

    Was Jesus born differently?

    Was he not conceived, and born of a woman?

    Of course he was tempted as we are-temptation is from within.[mk 7.20.jas 1.14]

    He was an overcomer[rev3.21] and he encourages us who are in him to become ovecomers by grace.[rev 3.12, 21]

    August 23, 2015 at 6:36 pm#802381
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    Before I said.

    Terraricca,

    Yes, many were credited with righteousness before the new covenant but those that become fully mature in Christ are pure and righteous before God.

    It is superior to being credited with righteousness.

    Scripture states about those under the law that God looked down from above and saw that none that does good, (Psalms 14:2-4), but he says about those under the new covenant with the children of Israel but not according to the one he made with Moses as intercessor but instead he would put his Law in them and write it on their hearts. (Jeremiah 31:31-33)

    As I said the righteousness is different as before the righteousness was obedience to a written code while now it is obtained by learning to live by the teaching of the Spirit of God he put within those that follow the true gospel of Christ.

    Both have always required faith in God for without faith no one can anything from God. (James 1:6-7 and Hebrews 11:6)

    August 23, 2015 at 6:59 pm#802384
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    You assume you have the a Spirit but you rely on logic and inference.

    Why is this?

    August 23, 2015 at 8:20 pm#802388
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    The Spirit is one of the teachers and logic and inference are tools of that trade. The other teacher is Jesus Christ. They teach as one person though the Spirit is not a person.

    August 23, 2015 at 9:45 pm#802390
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    No the words of Jesus are spirit and life.

    The tools you offer are carnal.

    August 24, 2015 at 4:03 am#802396
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick….Why critize KERWIN, when it is you who does not truly believe the words (intellegent utterances) JESUS spoke “are” spirit, and life. It is you who deny WORDS (INTELLEGENT UTTERANCES) are not spirit, even though JESUS CLEARLY SAID THEY “ARE”. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO DENIES SPIRITS “ARE” TYPES ANS KINDS OF INTELLECTS. Words are just “sounds” of those spirit expressions, that can be transmitted to us through the air, so we can audibly hear them. Those word (intellegent uterances) are spiritually created, so to deny that o ly mean you yourself are atill carnel, so why accuse KERWIN?

    What part of the word “ARE” JESUS SAID DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

    peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene

    August 24, 2015 at 4:11 am#802397
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin…..First of all they were not Jesus’ words they were GOD THE FATHERS WORDS, AND WE ALL KNOW GOD IS SPIRIT. Secondly you were right in what you last wrote to Nick, spirit does impute the intellect of GOD TO US AND DOES COMBINE US WITH JESUS AND THE FATHER.

    peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene

    August 24, 2015 at 1:21 pm#802415
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @wilsunphi

    Just because Jesus was born without sin does not mean he did not have the temptation to sin. He subjected himself to the temptations for my sake and also lived a hard life for my sake. He died on the cross for mine and others’ sins. Yes, i follow him.
    -Wilson

    Agreed. The first adam was not born a sinner, but he had the capacity to become one.

    And Jesus (the second adam) was indeed tempted as we are, yet he chose to do the will of his Father. He spoke and did that which he saw and heard his father doing, and did not do things of his own accord.

    As death reigned through one man Adam, life came through one man, the second Adam, the son of the living God, and the one whom God made the messiah.

    We owe him our lives.

    August 24, 2015 at 3:43 pm#802422
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Hi KW,

    No the words of Jesus are spirit and life.

    The tools you offer are carnal.

    So why do you claim that both Jesus, Paul, and others of Scripture used carnal tools to teach the truth.

    I am confident they acted and spoke using tools as they were carried along by the Spirit.

    Why do you doubt?

    August 24, 2015 at 3:49 pm#802424
    kerwin
    Participant

    Gene,

    Yes, God is the one that teaches through his Spirit but what I claim is not in error even though I did not say that as Jesus claims his utterances as his own though he also made it plain it other areas they came from God.

    After all, he also claims he and God are united as one person; though not as God but instead Spiritually.

    August 24, 2015 at 4:14 pm#802427
    terraricca
    Participant

    kw

    no that was not what you say ,it was this ;Terraricca,

    Bildad the Shuhite used the words of Job 25:4 to accuse Job while I pointed out they sum up the mystery of godliness.

    and this start my concern

    August 24, 2015 at 5:01 pm#802429
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi kW,

    The men God used did not choose their tools from their carnal sources.

    God spoke through them in various ways.

    August 24, 2015 at 7:38 pm#802431
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    You are the one calling the tools both Jesus and Paul used carnal not Scripture and not me.

    You would not do that if you truly believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

    Stop doubting and believe.

    August 24, 2015 at 7:45 pm#802432
    kerwin
    Participant

    Teraricca,

    Job 25:4American Standard Version (ASV)

    4 How then can man be just with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

    The answer to both questions posed by Bildad the Shuhite is through faith in Jesus Christ.

    August 25, 2015 at 1:14 am#802436
    terraricca
    Participant

    kw

    so faith in God does not count in your view ?

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