Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 20 posts - 1,241 through 1,260 (of 1,323 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #318362
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2012,13:55)
    T,

    I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.


    Acts 2:30 King James Version
    Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Romans 1:3 King James Version
    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Kerwin, Jesus WAS under 50 years old, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

    What do you suppose those bolded words mean in the two scriptures I posted above?  Why do you suppose both Peter and Paul used this particular phrase concerning Jesus?  If Jesus had never been anything BUT flesh, why would they need to distinguish that he was only the offspring of David “according to the flesh”?

    Think it out, man.  (I await your DIRECT answers to my last two posts.)

    #318363
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Pierre,

    Did you switch to a darker cyan color?

    #318366
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,05:58)
    Pierre,

    Did you switch to a darker cyan color?


    ]Mike

    yes our friend Eddy gived me a code to use how do you like it :)

    #318371
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2012,03:27)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2012,17:13)
    I support the translation-interpretation that Jesus teaches us that “before Abraham is to become”; I am the one” because it is in harmony with the ideas that:

    1} Jesus is greater than Abraham
    2} Jesus is the Seed by which Abraham has now become the father of many nations of children, who have a faith like his


    Really Kerwin?   ???

    Do you REALLY believe that the words, “before Abraham is to become, I am the one” are a SENSIBLE WAY for Jesus to explain that he is the seed of Abraham and greater than Abraham?   ???   That smacks of pure, unadulterated NONSENSE.  Before Abraham is to become WHAT?  ???  And how do the words “I am the one” say, “I am the seed of Abraham and greater than him”?  ???

    Kerwin, which of the following sentences makes the most sense to English speaking people:

    A.  Philip, I AM with you for the past three years.

    B.  Philip, I HAVE BEEN with you for the past three years.

    Please answer DIRECTLY with an “A”, or a “B”.


    Mike,

    The English language has both the present indicative and the present continuous and so both sentences are correct.

    This is what Scripture teaches:

    Galatians 3:16
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    #318391
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 31 2012,18:15)
    yes our friend Eddy gived me a code to use how do you like it  :)


    It was always a good color, but now I can see it much better. Good job, Eddy! :D

    #318394
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    :D

    Kerwin, have you EVER said, “I AM a member of Heaven Net for the past three years”?

    Of course not.  Nor will you EVER say it in the future.  Why?  Because if you were to ever talk about how long you've been a member here, you would say, “I HAVE BEEN a member of Heaven Net for the past three years”…………. and you KNOW it!  :)  

    (Do you think the other members here can't see as plain as day that you are PURPOSELY answering a simple question WRONG, just so you can “be right”?)

    Btw, I didn't ask you if both sentences were “correct”, did I?  Please answer the question I actually asked.

    #318456
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 30 2012,05:26)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 29 2012,19:42)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 29 2012,08:54)
    The bible doesnt teach falsely, you and Mike and T8 do concerning Jesus preexistence as a sentinel Being before his berth on this earth.


    The bible teaches that he existed in the form of God before coming as a man. This is what we believe.

    Replace the words 'sentinel being' with 'the form of God' and then you accurately portray what we believe.


    T8……..the bible teaches no such thing, you and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians teach that which represents about 95% of all Christrodom, Tell me T8 why don't you even consider all the many scriptures that show Jesus did not preeexist his berth like Just a few i have listed here alsready.

    You say not Sentinel Being, but a Form of God is your view . Please tell us what is that Form of GOD you believe in, what does it look like, Jesus said he was Flesh and Blood after he was resurected but you say he is a Form of God.

    ……………………gene


    Gene I don't even need to prove to you anything about Jesus existing in the form of God because I get it from scripture.

    Please take this up with the author.

    Thanks.

    “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,”

    “who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,”

    #318458
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The crazy thing is Mike is “I am” (Ego Eimi) is mentioned a number of times in scripture by Jesus and other beings such as angels and men and as far as I have read, not one is talking about being a mere memory, but is directly relating the words to them existing.

    Yet they take Jesus one to have a different meaning. And why do they do that. One word. “BIAS”.

    #318467
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8………So which one is it , Form or Nature , according to Strongs the word comes from the Greek (morphe) which is better translated as “Nature” of God. Which shows us that Jesus had the “nature of God “in” him, and how is that if not by the Spirit of God Dwelling (IN) Just as he said it was over and over. believe you not that the Father is “in” me was the question he ask. God is Sprit therefore his Nature is also of Spirit and can indwell us all as it did Jesus also.

    None of that had any thing to do with Jesus Preexisting his berth God can install his “FORM” or better HIS Nature in anyone he choses to. But none of that would make the person a Preexisting “Being” and that includes Jesus also. The only thing that Preexisted was the Spirit of the Living God which you are confusing with the “man” Jesus

    T8, i love you brother, but you are truly wrong on Jesus Preexisting his berth as anykind of “Being”. This is a hugh false teaching and only moves Jesus away from his human Roots as a Plain Human Being . It is a Doctrine of Seperation and creates a form of Idolatry, rather you understand that or not Brother it doesn't change the truth. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………gene

    #318483
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene if you read the text and order of events as recorded in the gospels, then the indisputable order is this, as it is written:

    EXISTED in the FORM of God > Emptied himself > Came in flesh > Died > Ressurected > In the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

    You clearly oppose this while we accept it. Just leave it at that. You are not about to change and I believe this because it is written, so I am not about to adopt your opposing view am I?

    And form is not the same as God dwelling inside us. If that was the case, then believers by reason of having the Spirit dwelling in them could rightly say they exist in the form of God. But that is language that I doubt you would use of yourself for example, and I assume that you consider yourself a true believer with God's spirit in you. So why don't you declare to everyone here that you exist in the FORM OF GOD?

    Show some confidence in your own teaching and let us hear you say it.

    We await your response to this.

    #318493
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,04:42)
    Yet they take Jesus one to have a different meaning. And why do they do that. One word. “BIAS”.


    Pure, unadulterated bias is the ONLY reason behind the Bizzaro World tactic I highlighted and called “Only in the Case of Jesus”. :)

    #318494
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,04:42)
    The crazy thing is Mike is “I am” (Ego Eimi) is mentioned a number of times in scripture by Jesus and other beings such as angels and men and as far as I have read, not one is talking about being a mere memory, but is directly relating the words to them existing.


    Agreed. And along those same lines, when Jesus says “the glory I HAD with you before the world began”, it is only BIAS that would cause someone to understand those words as “the glory THE THOUGHT OF ME IN YOUR HEAD HAD with you before the world began”.

    #318520
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,05:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2012,13:55)
    T,

    I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.


    Acts 2:30 King James Version
    Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Romans 1:3 King James Version
    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Kerwin, Jesus WAS under 50 years old, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

    What do you suppose those bolded words mean in the two scriptures I posted above?  Why do you suppose both Peter and Paul used this particular phrase concerning Jesus?  If Jesus had never been anything BUT flesh, why would they need to distinguish that he was only the offspring of David “according to the flesh”?

    Think it out, man.  (I await your DIRECT answers to my last two posts.)


    Mike,

    Adam was created a man of flesh and the became a living soul. The same is true of Jesus.

    #318567
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,03:41)
    Gene if you read the text and order of events as recorded in the gospels, then the indisputable order is this, as it is written:

    EXISTED in the FORM of God > Emptied himself > Came in flesh > Died > Resurrected > In the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

    You clearly oppose this while we accept it. Just leave it at that. You are not about to change and I believe this because it is written, so I am not about to adopt your opposing view am I?

    And form is not the same as God dwelling inside us. If that was the case, then believers by reason of having the Spirit dwelling in them could rightly say they exist in the form of God. But that is language that I doubt you would use of yourself for example, and I assume that you consider yourself a true believer with God's spirit in you. So why don't you declare to everyone here that you exist in the FORM OF GOD?

    Show some confidence in your own teaching and let us hear you say it.

    We await your response to this.


    T8,

    — Any human that lives by the Spirit exists in the image of Jehovah and so empties himself and takes on the image of a servant, Colossians 3:10.

    — Human beings are born in the flesh even as in the beginning Adam was created a man of flesh and then became a living soul, Genesis 2:7.

    — Many saints died and were resurrected about the same time as Jesus Christ, Matthew 27:52-53.

    #318574
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,07:53)
    :D

    Kerwin, have you EVER said, “I AM a member of Heaven Net for the past three years”?

    Of course not.  Nor will you EVER say it in the future.  Why?  Because if you were to ever talk about how long you've been a member here, you would say, “I HAVE BEEN a member of Heaven Net for the past three years”…………. and you KNOW it!  :)  

    (Do you think the other members here can't see as plain as day that you are PURPOSELY answering a simple question WRONG, just so you can “be right”?)

    Btw, I didn't ask you if both sentences were “correct”, did I?  Please answer the question I actually asked.


    Mike,

    You are getting confused about proper English and common usage.  Jesus declared “I am with you always” which is proper English while common English is “I will be with you always”.  Common English is sloppy as it fails to express the full meaning of Jesus' words.

    In general “Have been” means that an action is performed from an indeterminate time in the past to the present. The action may or may not continue into the future.  It is not a past tense verb.

    In general “will be” means an action is performed in the future and may or may not have been performed in the past and/or present.

    I am conveys the idea that Jesus performed the action in the past, present, and future.

    Jesus departed from Philip for a little while but afterwards he stated “I am with you always”.

    The Ancient Greeks may have used the present indicative instead of the various continuous verbs in some cases if they had no continuous verbs.   In which case context would determine which is appropriate as long as the worldview of the people of that time is also factored in.

    What does “I have been before Abraham became/to become x”, where x is a debatable variable, mean?  Does it go with your teaching or are you just reacting to the groundless Trinitarian insistence Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah?

    #318607
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 02 2012,08:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,05:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2012,13:55)
    T,

    I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.


    Acts 2:30 King James Version
    Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Romans 1:3 King James Version
    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Kerwin, Jesus WAS under 50 years old, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

    What do you suppose those bolded words mean in the two scriptures I posted above?  Why do you suppose both Peter and Paul used this particular phrase concerning Jesus?  If Jesus had never been anything BUT flesh, why would they need to distinguish that he was only the offspring of David “according to the flesh”?

    Think it out, man.  (I await your DIRECT answers to my last two posts.)


    Mike,

    Adam was created a man of flesh and the became a living soul.  The same is true of Jesus.


    ]K

    how do you know that about Jesus ???

    or should we all also worship you and so believe all you say ??? so sinse you are only a man show some scriptures to this

    #318637
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2012,13:38)

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,04:42)
    The crazy thing is Mike is “I am” (Ego Eimi) is mentioned a number of times in scripture by Jesus and other beings such as angels and men and as far as I have read, not one is talking about being a mere memory, but is directly relating the words to them existing.


    Agreed.  And along those same lines, when Jesus says “the glory I HAD with you before the world began”, it is only BIAS that would cause someone to understand those words as “the glory THE THOUGHT OF ME IN YOUR HEAD HAD with you before the world began”.


    Further, they actually are teaching the very opposite. Because 'return' means another turn, and they deny that Jesus was with the Father before and is again having another turn with the Father so to speak.

    Maybe they need to take an English course and understand what 're' does to a word. e.g., repeat, redone, relocate, remain, reassess, etc, re etc :)

    As much as they try to mask it, they are conveying the complete opposite of the text. And Gene does this with many other things too. He is in a state of rebellion against many scriptures. He needs to sort himself out. Up to him and him alone.

    All we can do is keep our house in order and give a good witness and hope that encourages others to do the same.

    #318638
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 02 2012,21:15)

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,03:41)
    Gene if you read the text and order of events as recorded in the gospels, then the indisputable order is this, as it is written:

    EXISTED in the FORM of God > Emptied himself > Came in flesh > Died > Resurrected > In the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

    You clearly oppose this while we accept it. Just leave it at that. You are not about to change and I believe this because it is written, so I am not about to adopt your opposing view am I?

    And form is not the same as God dwelling inside us. If that was the case, then believers by reason of having the Spirit dwelling in them could rightly say they exist in the form of God. But that is language that I doubt you would use of yourself for example, and I assume that you consider yourself a true believer with God's spirit in you. So why don't you declare to everyone here that you exist in the FORM OF GOD?

    Show some confidence in your own teaching and let us hear you say it.

    We await your response to this.


    T8,

    — Any human that lives by the Spirit exists in the image of Jehovah and so empties himself and takes on the image of a servant, Colossians 3:10.

    — Human beings are born in the flesh even as in the beginning Adam was created a man of flesh and then became a living soul, Genesis 2:7.

    — Many saints died and were resurrected about the same time as Jesus Christ, Matthew 27:52-53.


    Kerwin. I am not against your response.

    It just doesn't relate to what I said that is the only problem.

    #318708
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,08:41)
    Gene if you read the text and order of events as recorded in the gospels, then the indisputable order is this, as it is written:

    EXISTED in the FORM of God > Emptied himself > Came in flesh > Died > Ressurected > In the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

    You clearly oppose this while we accept it. Just leave it at that. You are not about to change and I believe this because it is written, so I am not about to adopt your opposing view am I?

    And form is not the same as God dwelling inside us. If that was the case, then believers by reason of having the Spirit dwelling in them could rightly say they exist in the form of God. But that is language that I doubt you would use of yourself for example, and I assume that you consider yourself a true believer with God's spirit in you. So why don't you declare to everyone here that you exist in the FORM OF GOD?

    Show some confidence in your own teaching and let us hear you say it.

    We await your response to this.


    T8……Look up the word used there for “FORM” and there is you answer it should be rendered “NATURE”, Jesus did Exist in the Nature of GOD (via the holy Spirit in him)when he walked this earth Just as Paul was saying. You problem is you move the term “EXISTED” as meaning before he was on this earth when Paul was talking about a Past time when he was walking on this earth. Your pulling a old shell game on people > You full well know Paul was talking about Jesus when he was on this earth. IMO

    Jesus came to exist in the Flesh just as we do through a Berth process . He never said one time he prexisted his Berth on thi earth as any kind of “BEING”

    Here is something for you to try to twist up also.

    In the book of Hebrews it say this > What is man that thou art mindfull of him, you have “MADE” Him a (little) lower the the angels , you have ( a past tense expression)   crowned him with honor and glory, you have put “all things” under his (mankinds) feet. in that you have put all things under him (mankind) there is nothing that is not under him (mankind).

    But we do not yetsee all thing under his (mankinds) feet , but what DO WE SEE?, we see Jesus who was “MADE” (just like us) a little lower then the angels, for the tasting od death Just like we also do Now crowned with Glory and Honor. He is what God planed for all Makind and has achieved or attained to that Crown of Glory and Honor. WE also can to. Your religion of (Seperation) works to destory that Plan of God and the Example of the Man Jesus to us all.

    So this MAN Jesus was as we are “MADE” Lower then the angles also, the exact same way we are. I see no difference between the way Jesus was “MADE” lower then angles then we are, i see no difference between him being “MADE and us Being MADE that way.

    Only you trinitarians and Preexistence desperately try to Move Jesus away from Mankind. Your Work of seperating Christ idenity from Man is a work of iniquity and you are both to proud and stubbern to see or even consider this, to understand it. But yet you accuse me and others here as being that way when in fact T8 it is you who are being that way. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

    #318737
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 03 2012,05:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 02 2012,21:15)

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,03:41)
    Gene if you read the text and order of events as recorded in the gospels, then the indisputable order is this, as it is written:

    EXISTED in the FORM of God > Emptied himself > Came in flesh > Died > Resurrected > In the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

    You clearly oppose this while we accept it. Just leave it at that. You are not about to change and I believe this because it is written, so I am not about to adopt your opposing view am I?

    And form is not the same as God dwelling inside us. If that was the case, then believers by reason of having the Spirit dwelling in them could rightly say they exist in the form of God. But that is language that I doubt you would use of yourself for example, and I assume that you consider yourself a true believer with God's spirit in you. So why don't you declare to everyone here that you exist in the FORM OF GOD?

    Show some confidence in your own teaching and let us hear you say it.

    We await your response to this.


    T8,

    — Any human that lives by the Spirit exists in the image of Jehovah and so empties himself and takes on the image of a servant, Colossians 3:10.

    — Human beings are born in the flesh even as in the beginning Adam was created a man of flesh and then became a living soul, Genesis 2:7.

    — Many saints died and were resurrected about the same time as Jesus Christ, Matthew 27:52-53.


    Kerwin. I am not against your response.

    It just doesn't relate to what I said that is the only problem.


    T8,

    The point of order. I have not looked into that yet.

Viewing 20 posts - 1,241 through 1,260 (of 1,323 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account