Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #318072
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    “I was before Abraham became” is the best way in English to express the idea you think is in John 8:58.    The situation is the Greek does not support that translation though I have heard of a translation that does it anyways.

    The historic present argument is your best choice and “I am” is a better choice than “I have been” because the later lacks a definite future element.  It is “I am before Abraham became.” vs “I have been before Abraham became.”

    A variation is that “I am” sometimes “I am he” or something like that.  I am not certain how or if that would work out in English. For it to work out in Greek then the words “Before Abraham is to become/became” would have to refer to someone and then Jesus would claim to be that someone.  

    I support the translation-interpretation that Jesus teaches us that “before Abraham is to become”; I am the one” because it is in harmony with the ideas that:

    1} Jesus is greater than Abraham
    2} Jesus is the Seed by which Abraham has now become the father of many nations of children, who have a faith like his.

    I don't agree with those non-creditable Jews that he claimed to have existed durring Abraham's mortality.  I do agree with them that he appeared to be under 50.  Of course Scripture tells us he was about thirty when he started his ministry; but why would you beleave that?

    Luke 3:23
    King James Version (KJV)

    23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

    He was also twelve at an earlier date.

    Luke 2:42
    King James Version (KJV)

    42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

    Since Scripture states his being these ages how does your claim he is older harmonize with these passages?

    #318109
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The fact that the Jews took Jesus to mean that he existed before Abraham at least shows that this was linguistically possible. And the confirmation as to this understanding has many witness scriptures.

    1) Linguistically correct.
    2) Agrees with many other scriptures.  

    Also, when Jesus was asked if he was Jesus just before his crucifixion he said, 'I am'. He wasn't referring to being a memory in the Father then and I don't believe he meant that anytime he said, “I am”.

    You falsely assume that the bible gives the age of his existence when it is merely stating that he was a human for that long.

    For just for a minute imagine from your own mind that this is true, that Jesus was literally the firstborn of all creation. Then would you think it strange that when he was 12 that he didn't celebrated all the years of the universe + 12 + how long before that? Who would think that was necessary. Yet you seem to think it would be given your comments about Jesus age. This seems strange to me.

    • Jesus is now in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
    • “Before Abraham was I am” said Jesus.
    • “To the only God our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory and magnificence, empire and power, before all ages…”.

    These are all written and are a testimony to the truth. If you don't want to believe it, then you are free to do so.

    #318110
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 29 2012,08:54)
    The bible doesnt teach falsely, you and Mike and T8 do concerning Jesus preexistence as a sentinel Being before his berth on this earth.


    The bible teaches that he existed in the form of God before coming as a man. This is what we believe.

    Replace the words 'sentinel being' with 'the form of God' and then you accurately portray what we believe.

    #318111
    2besee
    Participant

    Revelation 3:14
    'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation'

    The Greek says 'These things says the Amen, the witness, faithful and TRUE, the beginning of the creation of God.

    Just my two cents.

    #318118
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    2besee……….Jesus was in deed the “beginning” of a Creation of the sons of God from the creation (OF) Man to “inheiret etenal life, the First raised from the dead from all creation to that state. Notice where it also say He is the First (and) the Last, what does the means?. It means that the last into the kingdom of God will be exactly like Him who is the First. We are called Joint heirs with Jesus and that inheritance is eternal life , He is said to be the (FIRST) of many Brothers. He is indeed the “Beginning of GOd's Creation” from all human creation, the First as well as the last will be exactly like him also, For we shall see him (AS) He is. We will be exactly like him. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………..gene

    #318122
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 29 2012,19:42)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 29 2012,08:54)
    The bible doesnt teach falsely, you and Mike and T8 do concerning Jesus preexistence as a sentinel Being before his berth on this earth.


    The bible teaches that he existed in the form of God before coming as a man. This is what we believe.

    Replace the words 'sentinel being' with 'the form of God' and then you accurately portray what we believe.


    T8……..the bible teaches no such thing, you and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians teach that which represents about 95% of all Christrodom, Tell me T8 why don't you even consider all the many scriptures that show Jesus did not preeexist his berth like Just a few i have listed here alsready.

    You say not Sentinel Being, but a Form of God is your view . Please tell us what is that Form of GOD you believe in, what does it look like, Jesus said he was Flesh and Blood after he was resurected but you say he is a Form of God.

    God is a Spirit Jesus said and Jesus also said he was not a Spirit. If you understood what a Spirt is you would realize siprits have no Form (shape) they are like the wind, they come in Types and Kinds, They are what is (IN) people representing their perticular types and kinds that effects their behaviors.

    The word used there for Form should be (NATURE) which would refelect a type or kind of Spirit. Jesus had God the Fathers Nature because the Father who is Spirit was (IN) him as He said over and over. We also can have that Nature (IN) us also exactly as Jesus had. We can even now be Son of God and brothers and sister of Jesus (NOW).

    You religion of seperation of Jesus from our exact idenity is a false teaching T8 it works against the work of God and Jesus in all Human kind, You have turned Jesus into an Idol and that transforms the image of him into a a man of sin

    I know you don't really understand this T8 but you will in time of that i am sure brother.

    peace and love to you and yours T8………………………….gene

    #318140
    kerwin
    Participant

    T8,

    Quote
    “Before Abraham was I am” said Jesus.

    The Ancient Greek does not say that since it has no past tense and modern English has no aorist tense. The Preexistantarian translators thus translated their understanding of the ideas to modern English.

    I do believe that using the present tense as a historic present does allow for your understanding or something similar. Though it allow it does not demand and therefore the context of the words are important.

    I've discussed this with Mike, and like you, have little time to go over it again. The question is how creditable the Jews are and what Jesus meant by his earlier words.

    Scripture agrees with the Jews, that Jesus was under 50, and therefore not preexistent.

    #318143
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,02:22)
    T8,

    Quote
    “Before Abraham was I am” said Jesus.

    The Ancient Greek does not say that since it has no past tense and modern English has no aorist tense.  The Preexistantarian translators thus translated their understanding of the ideas to modern English.

    I do believe that using the present tense as a historic present does allow for your understanding or something similar.  Though it allow it does not demand and therefore the context of the words are important.

    I've discussed this with Mike, and like you, have little time to go over it again.  The question is how creditable the Jews are and what Jesus meant by his earlier words.  

    Scripture agrees with the Jews, that Jesus was under 50, and therefore not preexistent.


    k

    Quote
    Scripture agrees with the Jews, that Jesus was under 50, and therefore not preexistent.

    please i will now correct your sentence above ;

    Scripture agrees with the Jews, that Jesus was under 50, and therefore I CONCLUDE THAT HE WAS not preexistent.

    BUT I CANNOT EXPLAIN WHY HE SAYS HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND HOW HE WAS BORN JUST BY A WOMEN ,I HAVE TO LEAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING AS MYSTERY ,BUT I KNOW I AM RIGHT FROM SCRIPTURES AS LONG AS I KEEP IT IN THE MYSTERY LANE ,

    ALL THE ABOVE IS WHAT YOU ARE REALY SAYING AND BELIEVE ,SO SCRIPTURES ARE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF MEN IN YOUR EYES.

    #318158
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Jesus was twelve years old when he was accidentally left behind at the Temple.  He was about thirty years old when his ministry started.  These two facts are clear from Scripture.

    He was sent from our Father, who is in heaven, and therefore came down from heaven. His Spirit comes from above for it is Jehovah's Spirit; therefore he is from above. These two facts are also clear from Scripture.

    He was conceived in a woman and therefore not outside of her.

    Ignorant and corrupt men miss-translate Scripture to their own damnation.

    #318159
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,05:37)
    T,

    Jesus was twelve years old when he was accidentally left behind at the Temple.  He was about thirty years old when his ministry started.  These two facts are clear from Scripture.

    He was sent from our Father, who is in heaven, and therefore came down from heaven. His Spirit comes from above for it is Jehovah's Spirit; therefore he is from above. These two facts are also clear from Scripture.

    He was conceived in a woman and therefore not outside of her.

    Ignorant and corrupt men miss-translate Scripture to their own damnation.


    K

    you turning in circle ,not answering my points ,from the scriptures,

    and your damnation his not Gods one,you are only a man ,

    and by not adressing my points ,you are making the rules and so judge the word of God, not me

    #318164
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    You seem not to understand what conceived means? It is the female's version of sired. It does not harmonize with your teaching and neither does Jesus being twelve years old and then about thirty years old. These ideas are found in Scripture but you have to look and believe.

    #318178
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,07:20)
    T,

    You seem not to understand what conceived means? It is the female's version of sired.  It does not harmonize with your teaching and neither does Jesus being twelve years old and then about thirty years old.  These ideas are found in Scripture but you have to look and believe.


    K

    Circling again,well have a nice trip :D

    #318242
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2012,14:22)
    The question is how creditable the Jews are and what Jesus meant by his earlier words.


    Not really, Kerwin.  The REAL question is:  What did JESUS say in reply to those Jews?

    The Jews displayed disbelief that a man who looked to be less than fifty years old to their eyes had seen their father Abraham.  The possible understandings of Jesus's answer to those Jews are:

    A.  Jesus AGREED with them, showing them that they were in fact CORRECT in saying he had not seen Abraham.

    B.  Jesus CORRECTED them in their false assumption.

    Kerwin, which one is the right answer?  Was Jesus AGREEING with those whom you call “non-credible Jews”, meaning these Jews were RIGHT?  YES or NO?

    #318243
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2012,17:13)
    I support the translation-interpretation that Jesus teaches us that “before Abraham is to become”; I am the one” because it is in harmony with the ideas that:

    1} Jesus is greater than Abraham
    2} Jesus is the Seed by which Abraham has now become the father of many nations of children, who have a faith like his


    Really Kerwin?   ???

    Do you REALLY believe that the words, “before Abraham is to become, I am the one” are a SENSIBLE WAY for Jesus to explain that he is the seed of Abraham and greater than Abraham?   ???   That smacks of pure, unadulterated NONSENSE.  Before Abraham is to become WHAT?  ???  And how do the words “I am the one” say, “I am the seed of Abraham and greater than him”?  ???

    Kerwin, which of the following sentences makes the most sense to English speaking people:

    A.  Philip, I AM with you for the past three years.

    B.  Philip, I HAVE BEEN with you for the past three years.

    Please answer DIRECTLY with an “A”, or a “B”.

    #318244
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 29 2012,02:45)
    Revelation 3:14
    'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation'

    The Greek says 'These things says the Amen, the witness, faithful and TRUE, the beginning of the creation of God.

    Just my two cents.


    Your two cents are worth a million dollars this time, 2besee, because they are straight out of the scriptures.

    I understand the words, “the beginning of the creation of God” to mean that Jesus was the beginning of God's creations – just like it says. I understand it the very way it was written because I don't have a pre-conceived notion to protect.

    Others on this site imagine a variety of other, abstract meanings for those words, because they are trying their best to FORCE the scriptures to teach what they WANT them to teach.

    #318245
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2012,10:12)
    Tell us Mike why don't you seek scripture harmony that shows Jesus was a “SON OF MAN”, he seemed to think he was saying it over and over many times.


    Once again Gene (for about the 100th time), none of us have ever said that Jesus was NOT the Son of Man.

    There is NOTHING we say that disharmonizes with the SCRIPTURES, Gene. What we say often disharmonizes with YOUR PRE-CONCEIVED NOTION THAT JESUS HAD TO HAVE BEEN EXACTLY LIKE US – but it doesn't disharmonize with the scriptures themselves.

    Try not to confuse your own personal WISHES with the words of scripture – as they are often two very different things.

    #318337
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2012,08:48)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2012,10:12)
    Tell us Mike why don't you seek scripture harmony that shows Jesus was a “SON OF MAN”, he seemed to think he was saying it over and over many times.


    Once again Gene (for about the 100th time), none of us have ever said that Jesus was NOT the Son of Man.

    There is NOTHING we say that disharmonizes with the SCRIPTURES, Gene.  What we say often disharmonizes with YOUR PRE-CONCEIVED NOTION THAT JESUS HAD TO HAVE BEEN EXACTLY LIKE US – but it doesn't disharmonize with the scriptures themselves.

    Try not to confuse your own personal WISHES with the words of scripture – as they are often two very different things.


    Mike…..Good so you do admit Jesus was a “Son .”OF” Man”

    Now lets deal with the word “OF” . To me that means “FROM” another words when Jesus says he is a Son of Man, it is the same as saying he came into “existence” through mankind, the same way we all did.

    If he had a prior existence he would not truly be a son of or “from” man at all but would have a “morphed” into a human body which would made him not a son of man at all but a morphed being of some kind.

    Jesus is not 100% man and 100% God, demigod, angel, or whatever. I have listed to you and your cohorts many scriptures and you all fail to even commit on then why is that Mike?

    Jesus is never seen as anything else but a son of or from man , he is also a son of God the exact same was all mankind is also, being it was God who originally created us all.

    Your preconceived religion of “separation” of Jesus ” exact identity” with the rest of humanity is a false teaching and it does advance a wedge between Jesus and the rest of humanity rather you realize it or not makes no difference it still performs the same evil work. IMO

    Peace and love to you and your………………………..gene

    #318344
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2012,09:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,07:20)
    T,

    You seem not to understand what conceived means? It is the female's version of sired.  It does not harmonize with your teaching and neither does Jesus being twelve years old and then about thirty years old.  These ideas are found in Scripture but you have to look and believe.


    K

    Circling again,well have a nice trip  :D


    T,

    I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.

    How was Jesus under 50 years old?

    In what manner was Jesus conceived in Mary?

    Quote
    Within hours of conception the fused gametes, a zygote, undergoes cell division. The presence of a hormone called progesterone prevents further female eggs being produced. Within the first week after conception the fertilized egg travels towards the uterus, where the continued growth of the zygote will occur in the form of an embryo.

    Note 1: My source is a tutorial by biology online.

    #318348
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2012,01:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2012,09:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,07:20)
    T,

    You seem not to understand what conceived means? It is the female's version of sired.  It does not harmonize with your teaching and neither does Jesus being twelve years old and then about thirty years old.  These ideas are found in Scripture but you have to look and believe.


    K

    Circling again,well have a nice trip  :D


    T,

    I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.

    How was Jesus under 50 years old?

    In what manner was Jesus conceived in Mary?

    Quote
    Within hours of conception the fused gametes, a zygote, undergoes cell division. The presence of a hormone called progesterone prevents further female eggs being produced. Within the first week after conception the fertilized egg travels towards the uterus, where the continued growth of the zygote will occur in the form of an embryo.

    Note 1: My source is a tutorial by biology online.


    ]K

    :ghostface: this is how i feel after spending months on this subject so believe what you want to ,it seems you can read better than I can

    #318360
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2012,10:35)
    Mike…..Good so you do admit Jesus was a “Son .”OF” Man”


    Not one of us pre-existers have ever claimed any different, Gene.

    The real question is: Do YOU believe that Jesus was existing in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being?

    No, you don't. So while we are believing ALL of the scriptures, it seems you are more happy to just pick and choose the scriptures you want to believe.

    Therein lies our difference, Gene.

    peace and love,
    mike

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