Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #317458
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    But Kerwin's future tense theory simply doesn't match the context of the passage:

    John 8:56
    Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

    The bolded words above were also written in the aorist tense, yet it is clear from the context that, as usual, they should be rendered as a simple English past tense.  (Perhaps Kerwin would like to see these words in the future tense?    )

    John 8:57
    “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    Uh-oh Kerwin.  The bolded words in this verse were written in the PERFECT tense.  That means you can't buck the system and pretend that “have seen Abraham” could be the future tense “will see Abraham” – not to mention that, once again, the CONTEXT would not allow for such a translation.  In other words, there is no loophole for you to exploit in 8:57, right?

    I have not looked into the Ancient Greek behind these words beyond scanning for the verb types, as being non-controversial they do not create such interest in me.  Abraham did see Jesus, the Seed God promised him, by whom he would by become the father of many nations.    Being a prophet of Jehovah he saw it through prophecy as well.  

    If Abraham, from his own conception, already saw Jesus’ day, then why would he rejoice “at the thought of seeing” it?

    The Jews did not understand Jesus because of their lack of knowledge.

    #317459
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2012,01:38)
    Mike,

    Quote
    But Kerwin's future tense theory simply doesn't match the context of the passage:

    John 8:56
    Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

    The bolded words above were also written in the aorist tense, yet it is clear from the context that, as usual, they should be rendered as a simple English past tense.  (Perhaps Kerwin would like to see these words in the future tense?    )

    John 8:57
    “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    Uh-oh Kerwin.  The bolded words in this verse were written in the PERFECT tense.  That means you can't buck the system and pretend that “have seen Abraham” could be the future tense “will see Abraham” – not to mention that, once again, the CONTEXT would not allow for such a translation.  In other words, there is no loophole for you to exploit in 8:57, right?

    I have not looked into the Ancient Greek behind these words beyond scanning for the verb types as being non-controversial they do not create such interest in me.  Abraham did see Jesus, the Seed God promised him, by whom he would by become the father of many nations.    Being a prophet of Jehovah he saw it through prophecy as well.  

    If Abraham, from his own conception, already saw Jesus’ day, then why would he rejoice “at the thought of seeing” it?

    The Jews did not understand Jesus because of their lack of knowledge.


    k

    Quote
    The Jews did not understand Jesus because of their lack of knowledge.

    this does not mean the knowledge was not available but they were not interested in that knowledge,and understanding,

    nothing different today ;the knowledge is there for the once to whom it is a premium to know,like the true disciples were waiting for him to arrive ,

    #317605
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 25 2012,02:44)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 24 2012,21:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2012,05:12)
    Gene is acknowledging the correct past tense “he EXISTED before Abraham DID“.


    Mike……..I believe Jesus preexisted before Abraham not as a Sentential Being, But preexisted in the Plan and will of God as written in scriptures. Jesus was a Prophesied Son of Man to come into existence by a  human Berth process just as all Mankind did with the exception of Adam and Eve. IMO

    Again Mike,  Jesus did not preexist his berth on this earth as any kind of being in the past. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene


    G

    only men dreams God almighty does not need to dream he just do things as he pleases,

    and you never answered the questions that was put before you in the PREEXISTANCE OF CHRIST  and so keep repeating over and over one single statement what his your opinion .

    and your opinion his not scriptural ,right ??? yes


    Terricca……….Where do you see the word “DREAM” in what i wrote, Please try to try to commit on exactly what i say instead of adding your twisted meanings to it.

    God having a Plan and purpose for his creation does not mean he had a “Dream” as you ignorantly suppose. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

    #317608
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 24 2012,09:20)
    Mike……..I believe Jesus preexisted before Abraham not as a Sentential Being, But preexisted in the Plan and will of God………


    Well Gene,

    At least you are understanding “Before Abraham EXISTED” correctly.  Kerwin is trying to nonsensically change that obvious meaning to “Before Abraham IS TO BECOME”.  ???

    But “IS TO BECOME” doesn't come close to matching the question the Jews asked Jesus in verse 57.

    In this case, you, I, every scholar who ever made a translation of John 8:58, are correct in understanding “Before Abraham WAS”.  Kerwin, on the other hand, is searching hard for a loophole – completely ignoring the fact that his loophole doesn't align with the words of verse 57.

    These “personal loopholes” are obvious to people without a pre-conceived notion to protect.  That being said, let me show you where your pre-conceived notion goes awry:

    John 6:38
    For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    In reality, this is Jesus saying HE came DOWN FROM HEAVEN to do the will of his Father.  

    In YOUR LOOPHOLE, this is Jesus saying THE PLAN OF HIMSELF came down from heaven to do the will of his Father.

    See the difference?

    #317611
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2012,13:38)
    If Abraham, from his own conception, already saw Jesus’ day, then why would he rejoice “at the thought of seeing” it?


    The same way John might rejoice at the thought of someday actually seeing, with his own eyes, the things he was shown via prophecy in Revelation.  If you were shown some wonderful, future event through prophecy, would you not rejoice at the thought of that day actually happening for real?

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2012,13:38)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    But Kerwin's future tense theory simply doesn't match the context of the passage:

    John 8:56
    Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

    The bolded words above were also written in the aorist tense, yet it is clear from the context that, as usual, they should be rendered as a simple English past tense.  (Perhaps Kerwin would like to see these words in the future tense?    )

    John 8:57
    “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    Uh-oh Kerwin.  The bolded words in this verse were written in the PERFECT tense.  That means you can't buck the system and pretend that “have seen Abraham” could be the future tense “will see Abraham” – not to mention that, once again, the CONTEXT would not allow for such a translation.  In other words, there is no loophole for you to exploit in 8:57, right?

    I have not looked into the Ancient Greek behind these words………..


    Well, look into it when you get the time.  “Have seen” in verse 57 is definitely written in the perfect tense.  And “Before Abraham came into being (became)” is written in the second aorist tense, which USUALLY is translated as a simple English past tense.

    So, not only does your “Abraham IS TO BECOME” buck against the USUAL translation of the Greek aorist tense, but it doesn't come close to matching the perfect tense of “have seen” in verse 57.

    The Jews were implying that, because he was not yet 50 years old, there was no way that Jesus could HAVE SEEN (perfect tense) Abraham.  Jesus was CORRECTING them, Kerwin.  He was, in effect, saying, “Oh yes I have, because BEFORE Abraham even came into existence, I was already in existence.”

    Like Pierre and I have already agreed, the fact that you don't want to believe these things will never make them any less true.

    #317615
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 25 2012,21:25)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 25 2012,02:44)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 24 2012,21:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2012,05:12)
    Gene is acknowledging the correct past tense “he EXISTED before Abraham DID“.


    Mike……..I believe Jesus preexisted before Abraham not as a Sentential Being, But preexisted in the Plan and will of God as written in scriptures. Jesus was a Prophesied Son of Man to come into existence by a  human Berth process just as all Mankind did with the exception of Adam and Eve. IMO

    Again Mike,  Jesus did not preexist his berth on this earth as any kind of being in the past. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene


    G

    only men dreams God almighty does not need to dream he just do things as he pleases,

    and you never answered the questions that was put before you in the PREEXISTANCE OF CHRIST  and so keep repeating over and over one single statement what his your opinion .

    and your opinion his not scriptural ,right ??? yes


    Terricca……….Where do you see the word “DREAM” in what i wrote, Please try to try to commit on exactly what i say instead of adding your twisted meanings to it.

    God having a Plan and purpose for his creation does not mean he had a “Dream” as you ignorantly suppose.  IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene


    g

    God plans are aready in fulfillement and so the are actions not something in the future ,God says and it his done ,

    so the dream is not believing that Christ was and his the son of God that was send on earth for the purpose to save men from the sin and curse of Adam ,

    it is your unbelieve that his your dream

    #317742
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Abraham believed Jehovah that through his seed he would become the father of many nations. That promise was of his seed through the faith that brings righteousness and not of his seed through the Law,
    Romans 4:11-14. Jesus knew this and spoke of it first in John 8:39. He then followed up in verses 56 and 58.

    The words of the Jews, no matter their verb type, are irrelevant as they did not understand Jesus' words; which had no place in them, v37.

    #317770
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2012,03:07)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 24 2012,09:20)
    Mike……..I believe Jesus preexisted before Abraham not as a Sentential Being, But preexisted in the Plan and will of God………


    Well Gene,

    At least you are understanding “Before Abraham EXISTED” correctly.  Kerwin is trying to nonsensically change that obvious meaning to “Before Abraham IS TO BECOME”.  ???

    But “IS TO BECOME” doesn't come close to matching the question the Jews asked Jesus in verse 57.

    In this case, you, I, every scholar who ever made a translation of John 8:58, are correct in understanding “Before Abraham WAS”.  Kerwin, on the other hand, is searching hard for a loophole – completely ignoring the fact that his loophole doesn't align with the words of verse 57.

    These “personal loopholes” are obvious to people without a pre-conceived notion to protect.  That being said, let me show you where your pre-conceived notion goes awry:

    John 6:38
    For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    In reality, this is Jesus saying HE came DOWN FROM HEAVEN to do the will of his Father.  

    In YOUR LOOPHOLE, this is Jesus saying THE PLAN OF HIMSELF came down from heaven to do the will of his Father.

    See the difference?


    Mike…….What do you mean by saying ” at least ” are you talking down to me again Mike? .  

    As far a Jesus being from above that is true he was, just as Adam and Eve were also, not to mention John the Baptist, and King Cryus. Where these not also prophecided to come about in their time. So were they from below or from above Mike?   It is interesting how you peexistences apply the prophecy concerning Jesus different then these others who were also from above Just as Jesus was from above to, meaning God had a prexistent plan for Jesus, just as he had for the others also, and all of the were from above to. They all came down from heaven from where God is. But each in his own time came into existence on this earth. Just that simple brother.

    The bad thing about you Trinitarians and Prexistences is the evil work of “SEPERATION” of Jesus' identity, with all mankind, which you all will have to give an account of someday. If only you could see that and repent of it while there is time.

    It will be a sad thing to hear Jesus say “depart from me because you did not except me as your human brother ” and worse, you worked to “SEPERATE” me from my human brothers and sisters.

    My advice to you and others brother is to give this a very serious consideration while there is time.    

    Peace and love to you and your Mike ……………………………………….gene

    #317778
    terraricca
    Participant

    G

    Quote
    It will be a sad thing to hear Jesus say “depart from me because you did not except me as your human brother ” and worse, you worked to “SEPERATE” me from my human brothers and sisters.

    My advice to you and others brother is to give this a very serious consideration while there is time.

    YOUR ADVISE IS FOR YOUR OWN LIVE TO SAVE,MIKE AND T8 AND ME ,HAVE PROVED TO YOU THAT THE TRUTH DOES NOT LAY WITH YOU ;YOUR VERSION IS A RECONSTRUCTED VERSION OF SCRIPTUTRES WHILE OURS HIS AS THE SCRIPTURES SAYS IT ,

    SO PLEASE TAKE YOUR ADVISE SERIOUSLY YOUR LIVE IN THE FUTURE DEPEND ON IT :)

    #317799
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 26 2012,10:25)
    Mike…….What do you mean by saying ” at least ” are you talking down to me again Mike?


    No Gene, I'm not talking down to you.  What I meant by “at least” was that I was happy you can at least see this one scripture for the way it should be translated.

    I am used to Trinitarians and non-preexisters only seeing things the way they want to see them, despite the clear wording and context of the scripture.

    For example, look at the lengths to which Kerwin is going right now, just to PRETEND that the first part of 8:58 says “Before Abraham IS TO BECOME……….”.  You and I both know that interpretation of those words in that context is absurd.  Anyone in their right mind knows it is absurd.  Deep down, even Kerwin knows it is absurd, but he MUST cling to it because he doesn't WANT the scripture to be teaching what it really is teaching.

    And I said “at least” because there are MANY times you do the same exact thing that he's doing with this verse.  For example, you read, “the glory I had alongside you before the world began”, and have to immediately start backpedaling and PRETENDING it means, “the glory THE THOUGHT OF ME IN YOUR HEAD had alongside you before the world began”.

    So, of all the things you PRETEND the scriptures don't say because you don't WANT them to say it, I was happy that AT LEAST you were able to understand Jesus' words in John 8:58 – without going into “PRETEND LAND” along with Kerwin.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 26 2012,10:25)
    As far a Jesus being from above that is true he was, just as Adam and Eve were also, not to mention John the Baptist, and King Cryus.


    Which one of those said, “I came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent me”?  

    Which of those said, “Glorify me now with the glory I had alongside you before the world began”?  

    Through which one of those did God create all things in heaven and earth?

    Gene, I hope you are at least able to see what Kerwin is trying to do.  I hope you can recognize how he is PRETENDING the nonsensical makes perfect sense – just so he can stop the scripture from teaching what he doesn't WANT it to teach.

    If you are able to recognize his pretending on this one issue, then all you need to do is multiply that by about 100 to know how much pretending people like me, Pierre, and t8 put up with on this site.  Everyone wants the Bible THEIR OWN WAY.  It seems that very few of us give a crap about believing the scriptures as they are written – REGARDLESS of whether that is the way we WANT it to be.

    Right now, you WANT Jesus to have been exactly like us, and so you let that WANT rule over the way you understand scriptures.  But I just want to believe the scriptures as they were written, and so I don't have any pre-conceived wants or notions hanging over my head, hindering my understanding of God's written word.

    I don't have a WANT for Jesus to be God Almighty, and so I can read the scriptures that say Jesus is the Son of God Almighty without any personal hindrance.

    I don't have a WANT for Jesus to have been exactly like us, and so I can read the scriptures that clearly teach of his pre-existence without any personal hindrance.

    Perhaps someday, you will also be able to do the same.

    peace,
    mike

    #317864
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    I have read some more of what you wrote about John 14:9 and the perfect tense there. Perhaps it ties into the point you are attempting to make on John:56-58.

    #317911
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2012,14:37)
    Mike,

    I have read some more of what you wrote about John 14:9 and the perfect tense there.  Perhaps it ties into the point you are attempting to make on John:56-58.


    Mike

    it seems that you were right again,but this could have been prevented I mean this controverse ,if only people paid more attention ,and believe scriptures ,but they say they do but do not ,

    so it turnes to a regular class room like a fourth grader, :D

    #317928
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    If people are actually LEARNING now and then (me included), then all this is a worthwhile thing.

    But what I really hope is that some of these people come to realize that the way they used to read certain scriptures is simply a product of their personal DESIRE for the scriptures to teach what they WANT them to teach.

    In other words, while it will be a good thing for Kerwin to realize that “Before Abraham IS TO BECOME” doesn't even fit the sentence, let alone the passage, it would be a much better thing for him to realize that the only reason he made such an illogical claim in the first place is because he has been blinded by his own personal desire for the scriptures to teach certain things – whether or not they actually teach those things.

    THAT, my friend, would be a victory for God that would be worth all the time and trouble.

    #317929
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2012,02:37)
    Mike,

    I have read some more of what you wrote about John 14:9 and the perfect tense there.  Perhaps it ties into the point you are attempting to make on John:56-58.


    Kerwin,

    All I want you to realize is that you would have never even given “Before Abraham came into being” a second thought, were it not for your desire to form the scriptures around your own, personal wants and needs.

    You WANT Jesus to have not pre-existed, and that WANT often leads you into some murky waters.

    #317948
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2012,02:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2012,02:37)
    Mike,

    I have read some more of what you wrote about John 14:9 and the perfect tense there.  Perhaps it ties into the point you are attempting to make on John:56-58.


    Kerwin,

    All I want you to realize is that you would have never even given “Before Abraham came into being” a second thought, were it not for your desire to form the scriptures around your own, personal wants and needs.

    You WANT Jesus to have not pre-existed, and that WANT often leads you into some murky waters.


    Mike,

    Scripture does not state “before Abraham became, I was”.  To do that “I am” would need to be an aortic.  “I have been” or “I am” do not get it unless you claim they are historic presents. There is no evidence support that claim except the conclusion of the non-credible Jews that Jesus was claiming to have lived during Abraham's day.

    What Jesus was doing is teaching he is continuously greater than Abraham in answer to the question the non-creditable Jews asked in John 8:53.  The ignorant Jews misunderstood him so he corrected them in John 8:58.

    I do seek to harmonize my understanding of Scripture as God's Word is harmonized. That is why I plug values from Scripture into the variables therein.

    #317960
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    No Kerwin,

    You are not seeking SCRIPTURAL harmony, but seeking to FORCE the scriptures to harmonize with your own pre-conceived beliefs.

    You say an historical present doesn't make sense?  Here's what Greek expert Jason BeDuhn says:

    All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English.  

    Face it Kerwin, it is the “I AM” translation of 8:58 that makes no sense to anyone in English.  You KNOW this, and would NEVER change the “I have been” in 14:9 to “I AM” if you didn't think it helped your cause with 8:58.

    Think about that Kerwin.  Never in a million years would you say, “I have been” is a poor translation of 14:9.  But now, you MUST claim this SECOND irresponsible thing to even out the FIRST irresponsible thing you're trying to claim.  Are you blind to the paths your pre-conceived notions are taking you down?  Because WE can see it from a mile away.

    Btw, it wasn't “the conclusion of the non-credible Jews that Jesus was claiming to have lived during Abraham's day”.  The conclusion of the non-credible Jews was that Jesus COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE SEEN ABRAHAM before, since he had yet to reach 50 years of age.

    Jesus CORRECTED the non-credible Jews with his statement, by assuring them that he HAD INDEED seen Abraham, and that he WAS INDEED older than 50 years, because he existed even BEFORE Abraham came into being.

    #318024
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………..Fact is you and T8 and Pierre, are the ones who lack Scriptural “harmony”. You force the texts to say what in fact it is not saying at all, Kerwin is far more right on this matter then you all are. Tell us Mike why don't you seek scripture harmony that shows Jesus was a “SON OF MAN”, he seemed to think he was saying it over and over many times. also why did Jesus not elaberate on any of his past Existence, nor any of the Deciple either, Surely being this is such a major tenet of you Faith and as well as The Trinitarinas , this would have been a very clearly explained event by not only Jesus but all the deciples would have spent much time in their writing expounding it. Why is it that you must use scriptures that can be used different way so you can force to convey your Preexistent views?

    At least T8 in the past has ackinowledged some of these as going either way. Jesus himself said “PLAINLY” he was the Root and Offspring of King David Anyone and i mean “Anyone can understand that as being his linage, but you preexistences have to seperate the (AND) to imply something different. If i said I am the root and offsprng of my Grandfather James Balthrop, anyone would know what i was saying and it would not mean  my granfather Balthrop  was from my roots but it meant the family linage He and I were both from.  But you Trinitarians and Preexistence twist up those plain scriptures to convey your Past Convictions and force the text to meet them. And this is Just one example of forcing the text of many you people use. And you have the idosity to me and Kerwin and others are, when in fact that is exctly what you and your Co-harts are doing.

    Tell us Mike why is it you stay away from the texts that suport Jesus comming into existwnce at his Berth on the earth as a Son of Man? Why is that?, and then act like those scriptures  simply do not exist, and Just stay on scriptures that you suppose backes up your erounious belief system?

    What about scripture like these to just name a few.

    Gen 3:15………Jesus a MAN is that “SEED” of a WOMAN.

    Rom 15:12……..And again, Isaiah 11:10..>says, There shall be a root of Jesse and he that shall rise to regin over the Gentiles; in Him shall the Gentiles trust.

    Mike the word “OF” there means FROM, Jesus was a root from Jesse and so was King David who Jesus was an Offspring of.

    Deu 18:15…> The LORD thy God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the mist of you, of, or (FROM) thy brethern like unto me unto him shall you hearken;……….> verse 18…> I (the LORD) will raise them up a “PROPHET, from among their “brethern”, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak unto the all that i command him.

    Act 3:22….For Moses Truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the LORD you God rais up unto you of (or From) your brethern, like into me him shall you hear in “ALL” things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

    Mat 1:1…..> The book of the Gneration of Jesus Christ the son of  DAVID, the Son of ABRAHAM

    Mike not one of these mention any “PREEXISTENT” Being now do they? 

    Now here is a clever trick of Trinitarians and Preexistences, Notice carefully how a different word are substuted by translators for MAN to ONE

    Rom 5:17….> For if by one man's < (Greek hice) offense death regined by one < (Greek hice)  much more they which recieve abundance of grace and of the gift of rihtiousness shall regin in life by one < (Greek hice), Jesus Christ.

    Mike did you notice how the translators changed the words from man to mean “ONE”. Cleave trick, it is quit similar to what you Preexistences  and Trinitarians do with many scriptures also. Mike this is just a small amount of scriptures that back up Jesus was a Pure Himan Being and nothing more who the LORD brought forth in due time to fullfil his Purposeses in and through Mankind By a 100% human being Jesus the Christ. You religion is a relagion of “SEPERATION” rather you realize that or not, make no difference Mike it still is. Mike believe me brother you are completly indoctrinated into a false teachings,  a product of Trinitarism. IMO  

    peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

    #318027
    terraricca
    Participant

    gene

    Quote
    gene

    Quote
    Mike believe me brother you are completly indoctrinated into a false teachings,


    how could that be possible Mike ,t8,and me are ONLY rely on scriptures,and so are only indoctrinated by the word of God;

    would you insinuate that the BIBLE TEACHES FALSELY ???

    #318028
    terraricca
    Participant

    gene

    you never answered all the questions that clearly states that Jesus came from above ,and not in a dream ,or plan,but truly and really ,unless of cause Christ himself LIED is that possible ??? I do not think so ,so it must be you that do not understand what he says .

    #318037
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 29 2012,03:59)
    gene

    Quote
    gene

    Quote
    Mike believe me brother you are completly indoctrinated into a false teachings,


    how could that be possible Mike ,t8,and me are ONLY rely on scriptures,and so are only indoctrinated by the word of God;

    would you insinuate that the BIBLE TEACHES FALSELY ???


    Terricca………The bible doesnt teach falsely, you and Mike and T8 do concerning Jesus preexistence as a sentinel Being before his berth on this earth. You ask how could that be possible ?, Most all the world lies in a state of deception  All Trinitarins and Preexistence like you Pierre and Mike and T8 are also. Your problem is you all reject hundress of scriptures that show Jesus was a SON OF MAN over and over and did not preexist his berth on this earth except in the plan and will of God who prophesied him to come into existence at the proper time in History. You people neglect all the hundreds of scripture that prove this. You are in the dark rather you understand that or not. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

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