Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #316096
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    “Before Abraham became/to become” is the words while “Before Abraham came into existence” is an interpretation of the words.  As for “I am” we have the same kind of verb in English so why change it to fit you interpretation better.

    #316105
    terraricca
    Participant

    EDJ,GENE,KERWIN

    why are you so against the SON OF GOD ,YOU ARE DOING WHAT ???

    1Th 2:5 You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness.
    1Th 2:6 We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else.

    1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
    1Th 5:5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
    1Th 5:6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.
    1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
    1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
    1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1Th 2:2 We had previously suffered and been insulted in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in spite of strong opposition.
    1Th 2:3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you.
    1Th 2:4 On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men.

    but God, who tests our hearts

    1Th 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

    1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews,
    1Th 2:15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men

    1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?
    1Th 2:20 Indeed,. you are our glory and joy

    1Th 4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and. urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more

    IF WE DO NOT IMPROVE DAY AFTER DAY ;WHAT IS IT THAT AS STOPPED US ??? IS IT NOT THE DEVIL THAT STOPS GODS WORK ???

    #316114
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,12:47)
    Hi Gene,

    Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…

    “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
    until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
    send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
    thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    EDJ…………I have just read a Paper one the word David used there and One word for LORD ” Yahweh ” meant Lord God while the or the word “adon” mean just a human Lord or ruler and had no reference to a God at all.

    Another words it should have been understood to read like this < "the LORD GOD, Said unto my Lord "Jesus" (a human ruler) sit on my right until I make your enemies your footstool".

    This is the way i always have understood it Edj.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene

    #316115
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2012,00:57)
    IF WE DO NOT IMPROVE DAY AFTER DAY ;WHAT IS IT THAT AS STOPPED US ??? IS IT NOT THE DEVIL THAT STOPS GODS WORK ???


    Terricca………….So what has stopped you from seeing the truth presented to you Pierre?

    peace and love……………………………………….gene

    #316136
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2012,09:38)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2012,00:57)
    IF WE DO NOT IMPROVE DAY AFTER DAY ;WHAT IS IT THAT AS STOPPED US ??? IS IT NOT THE DEVIL THAT STOPS GODS WORK ???


    Terricca………….So what has stopped you from seeing the truth presented to you Pierre?

    peace and love……………………………………….gene


    gene

    PR 15:21 Folly is joy to him who lacks sense,
    But a man of understanding walks straight.

    PR 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight,
    But the LORD weighs the motives.

    PR 10:23 Doing wickedness is like sport to a fool,

    #316144
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,00:21)
    Mike,

    “Before Abraham became/to become” is the words while “Before Abraham came into existence” is an interpretation of the words.  As for “I am” we have the same kind of verb in English so why change it to fit you interpretation better.


    Kerwin,

    The following are the questions I asked you. Please DIRECTLY answer them this time.

    1. Doesn't “Abraham became” mean basically the same thing as “Abraham came into being”?

    2. Can you tell me that the words “I have been” in John 14:9 are “faulty”, or that it deters from the teaching? YES or NO?

    #316153
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2012,00:57)
    EDJ,

    why are you so against the SON OF GOD


    Hi Pierre,

    I ain't; always with the false accusations, huh?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #316154
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2012,02:33)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,12:47)
    Hi Gene,

    Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…

    “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
    until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
    send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
    thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    EDJ…………I have just read a Paper one the word David used there and One word for LORD ” Yahweh  ” meant  Lord God while the or the word “adon” mean just a human Lord or ruler and had no reference to a God at all.

    Another words it should have been understood to read like this < "the LORD GOD, Said unto my Lord "Jesus" (a human ruler) sit on my right until I make your enemies your footstool".  

    This is the way i always have understood it Edj.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    Are you going to answer my question now?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #316183
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 15 2012,01:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,00:21)
    Mike,

    “Before Abraham became/to become” is the words while “Before Abraham came into existence” is an interpretation of the words.  As for “I am” we have the same kind of verb in English so why change it to fit you interpretation better.


    Kerwin,

    The following are the questions I asked you.  Please DIRECTLY answer them this time.

    1.  Doesn't “Abraham became” mean basically the same thing as “Abraham came into being”?  

    2.  Can you tell me that the words “I have been” in John 14:9 are “faulty”, or that it deters from the teaching?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    This is two verses where became/become is used and they do mean became/become in some form but not necessary born or exist.  Both examples the KJV uses it at the end of the sentence. In both the English became/become or one its dirivatives will work. Context is what determines its meaning.

    Matthew 21:21
    King James Version (KJV)

    21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

    Matthew 5:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    The English language does not have an aorist so it is sometimes needful to fake it by a thought to thought translation; even though such a translation is more subject to bias.  In both these verses as well as John 8:58 of the NWT the translaters to liberties by using a thought for thought translation instead of a litteral translation when the earlier was not forced on them.  

    Here is what John 14:9 of the KJV states:

    John 14:9
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    It is a poor translation as “I am so very long with you…” is correct in that it reveals a continuous presence of Jesus with Philip, which is corrrect, and not a past one, which is incorrect.  The sentence stucture is still poor as the proper one in modern English is “I am with you so very long…”

    My understanding of a teaching from John 8 in general, and John 8:58 specifically.

    By his faith Abraham became the father of many nations.
    Before Abraham became, Jesus is he.

    John 8:39
    King James Version (KJV)

    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    John 8:53
    King James Version (KJV)

    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

    John 8:56
    King James Version (KJV)

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    Romans 4:16-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
    18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

    #316190
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,22:19)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,06:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,17:28)
    T,

    This is what the KJV states.

    Psalm 49:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
    7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Jesus is not one of “them” for he has never sinned.

    Colossians 1:10 teaches how to love as Jehovah does; a lesson that is the sum of Scripture.


    K

    look back in the start of our conversation and you can see you are going out of track ,your answer does not even make sense


    T,

    Where do you consider the start of our conversation to be?


    k

    Quote
    Jesus is not one of “them” for he has never sinned.

    so Jesus was not a Jew ??? any man that his born from men his born in sin ,

    Mary was used by God to give his son a cloth of human flesh and blood,

    simple miracle no rocket science that is what God his father did for his son to come down and give his human live for the sake of all men ,

    one more question to you ;were in scriptures does it says that Christ will ever return has a human ????

    #316356
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 15 2012,07:28)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2012,02:33)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,12:47)
    Hi Gene,

    Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…

    “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
    until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
    send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
    thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    EDJ…………I have just read a Paper one the word David used there and One word for LORD ” Yahweh  ” meant  Lord God while the or the word “adon” mean just a human Lord or ruler and had no reference to a God at all.

    Another words it should have been understood to read like this < "the LORD GOD, Said unto my Lord "Jesus" (a human ruler) sit on my right until I make your enemies your footstool".  

    This is the way i always have understood it Edj.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    Are you going to answer my question now?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    EdJ………..Yes in that “prophetic” statement he sure did know Jesus  “would” be. IMO

    Hope that answered you question brother.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

    #316357
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2012,10:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 15 2012,01:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,00:21)
    Mike,

    “Before Abraham became/to become” is the words while “Before Abraham came into existence” is an interpretation of the words.  As for “I am” we have the same kind of verb in English so why change it to fit you interpretation better.


    Kerwin,

    The following are the questions I asked you.  Please DIRECTLY answer them this time.

    1.  Doesn't “Abraham became” mean basically the same thing as “Abraham came into being”?  

    2.  Can you tell me that the words “I have been” in John 14:9 are “faulty”, or that it deters from the teaching?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    This is two verses where became/become is used and they do mean became/become in some form but not necessary born or exist.  Both examples the KJV uses it at the end of the sentence. In both the English became/become or one its dirivatives will work. Context is what determines its meaning.

    Matthew 21:21
    King James Version (KJV)

    21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

    Matthew 5:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    The English language does not have an aorist so it is sometimes needful to fake it by a thought to thought translation; even though such a translation is more subject to bias.  In both these verses as well as John 8:58 of the NWT the translaters to liberties by using a thought for thought translation instead of a litteral translation when the earlier was not forced on them.  

    Here is what John 14:9 of the KJV states:

    John 14:9
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    It is a poor translation as “I am so very long with you…” is correct in that it reveals a continuous presence of Jesus with Philip, which is corrrect, and not a past one, which is incorrect.  The sentence stucture is still poor as the proper one in modern English is “I am with you so very long…”

    My understanding of a teaching from John 8 in general, and John 8:58 specifically.

    By his faith Abraham became the father of many nations.
    Before Abraham became, Jesus is he.

    John 8:39
    King James Version (KJV)

    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    John 8:53
    King James Version (KJV)

    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

    John 8:56
    King James Version (KJV)

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    Romans 4:16-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
    18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.


    Kerwin………> For sure the “SEED” of Abraham was Jesus. And indeed Abraham rejoiced to see His Day (a future event), that also proves Jesus had not yet come into existence, or Abraham would have already been seeing his day, becasue he would have already been alive during his lifetime.

    Just another point that Jesus did not Preexist his Berth on this earth. Jesus was foretold to come into existence at a certain Day or period of time, and Abraham foresaw it.

    Good Scholarship Brother.

    peace and love to you and your………………………………gene

    #316362
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,17:41)
    Mike,

    This is two verses where became/become is used and they do mean became/become in some form but not necessary born or exist.


    Kerwin,

    Here are the first two definitions of “ginomai”, according to NETNotes:

    ginomai
    1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
    2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

    The two verses you listed obviously have the second definition, ie: a meaning of “come to pass”.

    Does that definition fit John 8:58?  “Before Abraham came to pass, I have been”…………   ???

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,17:41)
    Here is what John 14:9 of the KJV states:

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you……………

    It is a poor translation as “I am so very long with you…” is correct in that it reveals a continuous presence of Jesus with Philip, which is corrrect, and not a past one, which is incorrect.

    Kerwin, this statement is so OBVIOUSLY a statement of BIAS from you, seeing how virtually EVERY English translation that has ever been produced uses “I have been”, or “Have I been” in John 14:9.  

    The teaching from Jesus was NOT, I am CURRENTLY with you, so you should know these things.   It was, I HAVE BEEN with you for such a long time that you should BY NOW know these things.  

    Consider the man who speaks English as a second language saying, “I am married to my wife for 15 years.”  We all know he means “I HAVE BEEN married to my wife for 15 years”, and that there is simply an idiomatic breakdown between the languages.

    I'm quite sure you are able to understand this, but refuse to ADMIT to this understanding for PERSONAL, BIASED reasons.  You are only fooling yourself on this one, Kerwin.  The rest of us (including the Greek experts that translated all these English translations) understand 14:9 correctly.

    Here are some words from Greek expert Jason BeDuhn:

    “The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear.  Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.  All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English.

    Your pretend understanding of John 8:58 makes no sense in English, Kerwin.  But I have gotten very used to the NONSENSICAL interpretations of people who insist upon forcing their own understanding into the scriptures so they can keep their flawed doctrine.

    For you to say “I have been” in 14:9 is faulty, just goes to show how far you're willing to go to force your own understanding into the scriptures.

    Like I keep saying, the fact that you don't admit to certain scriptural teachings is not to say those teachings aren't true.

    So you keep on believing that before Abraham came to pass, I am makes any kind of sense if you want to.  As for me, I don't have pre-conceived notions to protect, therefore I am free to understand the scriptural teachings as they were intended.

    #316363
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 16 2012,09:42)
    And indeed Abraham rejoiced to see His Day (a future event), that also proves Jesus had not yet come into existence, or Abraham would have already been seeing his day, becasue he would have already been alive during his lifetime.


    Gene,

    I have rejoiced to see “The Day of the Lord”, as prophesied many times throughout scripture. Does that mean the Lord doesn't yet exist? ???

    #316411
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2012,02:17)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 15 2012,07:28)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2012,02:33)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,12:47)
    Hi Gene,

    Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…

    “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
    until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
    send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
    thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    EDJ…………I have just read a Paper one the word David used there and One word for LORD ” Yahweh  ” meant  Lord God while the or the word “adon” mean just a human Lord or ruler and had no reference to a God at all.

    Another words it should have been understood to read like this < "the LORD GOD, Said unto my Lord "Jesus" (a human ruler) sit on my right until I make your enemies your footstool".  

    This is the way i always have understood it Edj.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    Are you going to answer my question now?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    EdJ………..Yes in that “prophetic” statement he sure did know Jesus  “would” be. IMO

    Hope that answered you question brother.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene


    Hi Gene,

    Yes, that does answer my question; thank you!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #316783
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    I unintentional mislabeled the verb as a present continuous.  It is instead a present indicative.

    The present indicative is used in English as it is used in Ancient Greek; though there may be some differences in its applications. Translators have literally translated it a number of times, including:

    Matthew 28:20
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    and

    John 13:33
    King James Version (KJV)

    33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

    Accept for the poor modern grammar in the KJV the English present indicatives in these passages were literally translated from the Ancient Greek present indicatives. On the other hand the KJV translation has chosen to translate the Ancient Greek present indicative verb “am” of John 14:9 to a English present continuous verb “I have been”.  Except for my mislabel this is exactly what was done.

    Jason BeDuhn seems unaware of the fact that English like Ancient Greek has a present indicative.  “I am” as a present indicative is not the problematic verb in John 8:58 as it is a literal translation.  The aorist infinitive by it's very nature is more problematic as English does not have an aorist.

    NETNotes is correct in its way but how does that way apply to Romans 4:18 that uses the very same verb form of “ginomai” that John 8:58 does. In fact Abbraham's becoming a father is mentioned a number of times in Jesus' conversation with the Jews.  If you translate “ginomai” as it is translated in Romans 4:18 then the situation Jason BeDuhn noted disappears, except for the poor modern English sentence structure.  

    In my writing I have not changed a verb form anywhere when translating Ancient Greek to modern English, except where necessary. In the case it is necessary I have chosen to imitate an excepted translation of an aorist infinitive middle that also speaks of Abraham becoming.  In doing so the tenses of the sentence becomes homogeneous.  

    The NWT changes verb form of “I am”, not because it is necessary, but because it fits their teaching.  Like the KJV before them they chose a past tense translation of the aorist because it fits their understanding, not because it goes with the present indicative. The KJV keeps the present indicative form of “I am” because they teach it is God's name and not because it goes with their choice of verb tense earlier in the sentence.

    #316900
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    That is all very nice and fine.  It is clear that there is no end to the lengths to which you will go to keep 8:58 from teaching what it SO OBVIOUSLY teaches.

    Tell me……………  does rendering “ego eimi” in John 14:9 as “I have been” change the teaching?  Does it alter anything?  Or, better yet, does the present tense “I am” even make sense in the context?

    What is the USUAL way of saying the following, Kerwin:

    1.  For the past 3 years I AM with you……………

    2.  For the past 3 years I HAVE BEEN with you………..

    The obvious and HONEST answer is #2 – and you know it.  Jesus was wondering why, AFTER ALREADY BEING WITH PHILIP FOR SUCH A LONG TIME, Philip didn't understand certain things.

    He was not saying, “I am RIGHT NOW with you FOR SUCH A LONG TIME that you should know these things.”  

    Therefore, the way that virtually EVERY English translation renders 14:9 conveys the OBVIOUS intent of what Jesus was saying to Philip.

    Like I said, you can play word games and try to find little “alibis” based on idiomatic problems that occur when translating Greek into English if it makes your heart happy.  But you're not fooling anyone here, Kerwin.  We are all fully capable of reading between the lines and figuring out that you are only going to such great and nonsensical lengths because you don't LIKE the teaching in 8:58.

    Tell me once again what TEACHING Jesus was delivering in YOUR interpretation of 8:58.  What was he teaching the Pharisees, in your opinion?

    #316905
    david
    Participant

    Mike. You just don't get it. It was a secret code, a hidden message that Jesus gave to us, which coincidentally supports the trinity belief. “I am” mike. It's so obvious. He said “I am,” a verb which is extremely rare and hardly ever used. Why would he do that? It was a secret message!

    #316907
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    What is the USUAL way of saying the following, Kerwin:

    1. For the past 3 years I AM with you……………

    2. For the past 3 years I HAVE BEEN with you………..

    I have been wanting to hear kerwins response to this. Lets set aside the NWT for a second, and focus on the scripture itself. If Jesus had been speaking to us, and if he had been speaking English, what would he have said? I have been trying to figure out how anyone can even make a case for anything other than “have been” in the context of this verse.

    #316908
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    The teaching from Jesus was NOT, I am CURRENTLY with you, so you should know these things. It was, I HAVE BEEN with you for such a long time that you should BY NOW know these things.

    Kerwin, what was Jesus saying? (If we set aside the secret message which may or may not be contained within, what was he saying to those around him?)

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